Template talk:Sonic the Hedgehog/Archive 2

Sonic Hopper

This is a new arcade game if anyone wants to add it. There is no information on it yet.

And by the way, if it has Shadow in it, it does not automatically make it a main game. Put it in the arcade section where it belongs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.43.210 (talk) 18:59, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Sonic Blast (Game Gear)

Where is this Game Gear Videogame???? It must apear in Handheld games section --83.37.32.227 (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. --189.129.144.146 (talk) 02:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• I think I just put it in. But it doesn't show up in my browser; maybe just a refresh problem, though. Ben Standeven (talk) 09:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC) Edit: There now. So it's OK.

Shadow the Hedgehog (game)

This game shouldn't be include in the main series as it is a spin-off, this would be like adding Knuckles Chaotix to the main series list.

Why has this been readded and the page put on protection without mention? Either put Chaotix on the list as well or remove Shadow the Hedgehog.

Shadow passes the revised inclusion criteria as it ties in with the main games and includes running and jumping. It just adds another mechanic to the basic one. Hello2112 20:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't Chaotix also included then? It follows the same basic gameplay and while it does feature a different gimmic(elastic rings), it's no different than Shadow's use of weapons. Also in the manuel it ties into the story as well. Though I'm still sure Shadow is a spinoff and should be included as a spinoff game as it does not continue the main series. Sonic not being the main character being the obvious factor. Also the criteria mentions "odd gameplay" as games not in the main series, which Shadow the Hedgehog has, meaning it does not pass.

"odd gameplay" == not running and jumping. Shadow == running and jumping. Chaotix has altered ring system. Read the new one carefully. It explains it. —davidh.oz.au 02:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It appears fixed now anyway, and if the new one explains that then it's clearly wrong. Shadow the Hedgehog is an obvious spin-off and only obsessed fans can't see past that. There are even interviews that state that Sonic Team has always wanted to make a game for Shadow and maybe even create a spin-off series for it. Chaotix does have the same basic gameplay as 2D Sonic games, the altered ring system isn't significant at all and is no different than being able to preform magical powers and driving motorcycles with shotguns.

1) don't call people who disagree with you "obsessed fans".

2) can you provide a link or source for these interviews with sonic team?

3) sign your posts please.

How is this still going on? We have discussed this issue to death; it predates the splitting up of the template into multiple templates. We protected them page for about a month to stop the constant reverting of the templates. The inclusion critter was created for the sole reason of sorting this issue out for good. And yet it still goes on. Does anyone really care that much? (Somewhat ironic coming from the one person who probably reverted this page the most.) El cid the hero 20:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Why did someone put Shadow the Hedgehog under a spin-off title? When it clearly isn't. And I'm not an obsessive fanboy. It is part of the main series as it LINKS Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, and Sonic 06 together. It has the same basic gameplay as previous Sonic games. ( Running fast, going off speed ramps, get to goal ring, event scenes, and includes the ENTIRE Sonic cast as part of the main story. All it did was add in a few gameplay changes. Hell, It's like calling Sonic Heroes a spin-off because it used team based gameplay instead of solo gameplay. I don't approve of this change, and so I fixed the issue. Sonic Riders I can understand, as the story doesn't link to any of the previous games, and it has completely different gameplay. Takashi Iizuka may have said that he wanted to create a spin-off series for Shadow, but if you read his quote carefully, he said a spin-off series in the possible future. He didn't say that this game was a direct spin-off, when it was obvious a large portion of Team Darks story in Heroes was set up for Shadow's game. Also, in Sonic 06, Shadow joins GUN, after he settles his issues with them in his own game, he actually works for them now.......so yeah, the main series sonic games are linked to this one. --S200048 (talk) 02:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)s200048

Totally new inclusion criteria

From the above discussions, I have drawn up an inclusion criteria that is based on a games' merit which goes out of the way to avoid personal bias:

In times past the Sonic game templates were subject to edit wars over different points of view. The following criteria is a set of principles to guide inclusion of games in a particular navigational template, and is considered a standard that all editors should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.

A game can appear in {{Sonic games}} if and only if:

1. The game is recognized as being a successful^1a main series^1b game;^1c and,
2. The game references other games directly before it and/or later games make reference to it;² and,
3. Sonic is the main character or appears in it;² and,
4. The plot ties in with other games;² and,
5. The game does not have odd gameplay.³

Failing any of the above:

1. If it is a handheld game, put it in the handheld template.⁴
2. Otherwise, put it in the spinoff template.⁴

Notes

1a.	Success is evaluated on a game-by-game basis, not by influence in fan works. Suggested evaluation methods: GameRankings, MobyGames, amount of press coverage, sales, etc.
1b.	A main-series game has significant page history at Sonic the Hedgehog (series)#TIMELINE. Note that not all such games are suitable here.
1c.	Games must satisfy both criteria 1a and 1b.
2.	This is the criteria the main article uses.
3.	The game is built around the usual running and jumping. For example, this would include Shadow the Hedgehog, but it would not include Sonic Riders.
4.	Use common sense when choosing between handheld and spin offs. A good suggestion is that a handheld game is a handheld 2D platformer that does not meet the above criteria.

Closing remarks

The purpose of this inclusion criteria is decide what is included in {{Sonic games}}, not where it goes if it is unsuitable for this template. However, as rule, the GameGear series and other GameBoy games are generally placed in {{Sonic games (handheld)}}, provided their gameplay and reception doesn't make them nothing more that a spin off. Under the above criteria, Sonic Riders is a spin off, with Sonic Battle being a spin off whose handheld platform being the only thing keeping it out of {{Sonic games (spin off)}}. On the other hand, Sonic Pinball Party is not in {{Sonic games (handheld)}} because it is not a platformer.

Comments

Barring no objections, I propose we transclude the above on all Sonic template pages via something like <noinclude>{{Sonic games/doc}}</noinclude> —davidh.oz.au 09:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• diff wording changes from the original. Still waiting for comments. —davidh.oz.au 07:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

i'm willing to support this, it seems fair. El cid the hero 11:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your support and for your honest assessment of the proposal. It means a lot to me. ^_^ —davidh.oz.au 22:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

finally, a sensible criteria has been reached. I fully support this. Hello2112 22:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, looks like you guys did a good job here. I have no complaints. User:Denjo

This is a good, well thought out criterion.

There are a couple of points on which I'm unclear, however. Since the five numbered conditions contain no reference to console type, I assume that handheld games (in particular Sonic Rush and the Sonic Advance series) will be allowed on the template under this criterion? If that is so, then it needs to be made clearer (for example in the "closing remarks"). I suggest that the criterion include a couple of examples of borderline games (such as Rush and others already included), and then explain in which template they belong.

Also, since you've already spent so much effort on this matter, it might be worth going the extra mile to make criteria for the other two contentious templates as well. In fact, given the solid backbone you've already provided, it shouldn't be too hard. Say if a game fails to meet conditions 3 or 5 (and possibly 4), then it is automatically a spin-off. If it meets these two, but fails to meet any of the other conditions (1, 2 or possibly 4), then it is judged against a new condition 6: can it be played on a portable/handheld console? Obviously, if it can, then it is a handheld game; if not, it is also a spin-off. If you choose to incorporate this, the wording will probably need to be fixed.

Or you may decide that attempting to expand the criterion further will just complicate things, and thus decide to ignore the suggestion. That's fine. As an inclusion criterion for this template only, I think it makes a lot of sense. Good job. -- Supermorff 12:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, there is no reference to console type in the first five conditions. You also correct in assuming that Sonic Rush and the Sonic Advance series will be allowed on this template, because as A Link to the Past pointed out, they really are main series games. Funnily enough, the first inclusion criteria, did have such a "fall back" procedure, but was removed to make this new one simpler. ([1]) As for your other idea, including a "How to" section... I didn't think of that! :) —davidh.oz.au 06:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

One problem I have with this and it's involving Sonic Rivals. Rivals by all means is a part of the main canon as it does a number of things, the primary one being the true introduction of Silver and a reappearance of Eggman Nega. Just because it's a handheld doesn't make it any less canon, like Sonic Rush.

Also, Secret Rings is a spin off as Yogiro Okewa(or something like that) has expressly stated that it is separate from all previous games. Also, Sonic Advances 2 and 3 as well as Battle would also be a part of the main canon as 2 has a first time character introduction (Cream) and 3 picks up off Battle.GrandMasterGalvatron 14:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Rivals doesn't fail the inclusion criteria to my knowledge.

The only reason why Secret Rings is here is because we honestly thought it would be a main series game. (The development, the marketing, the lead-up, the reviews, the graphics, it all felt like it would be TheNextBigThing for Sonic... even more than Rivals or Next Gen. In fact it still does to some extent.) The last Sonic game I bought was Sonic Riders, so I wouldn't know if it is a spin off or not. Place it whereever you feel comfortable with it.

The problem with Sonic Battle is that it is a canon handheld fighting game, thus making its classification difficult. It belongs in all three templates. Strictly speaking, it isn't a splash and dash. However, under the above inclusion criteria, it should probably go under spin off or handheld. However, I will change the Sonic Rivals in the closing remarks section to Sonic Battle, so hopefully this should clear this up.

—davidh.oz.au 06:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh and Riders...well, I wouldn't necessarily render that a spinoff so much as the plot is concerned. We have the whole introduction of the Rouges thing and they have since cameoed in other games. I'm willing to discuss that though.GrandMasterGalvatron 14:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but Riders is just as much a spin off as SatSR. Include one and you include them both. And Battle. And everything else. —davidh.oz.au 06:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I moved Secret Rings to the spinoff template so i guess that takes care of that. However, there's nothing expressly stating that Riders isn't canon. At least, not that I can find, but I don't really care. However, I kinda think all these templates ate tacky. Why not just one unifies, neatly organized template instead of four scattered ones? GrandMasterGalvatron 15:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I do agree with you. You see, there's this bloke called CVG WikiProject, (of whom I am a member,) who likes to do things differently than the rest of Wikipedia. No way in the world {{Naruto}} be allowed by CVG WikiProject if he had his way, simply because it makes navigation too easy. Why, I even had to split {{Sonic characters (other media)}} off from {{Sonic characters}} to save it from being split by that megalomaniac!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, TfD doesn't really like all these useless templates clogging up her template space when he was only linking between two or three of his articles, and more often than not ordered him to merge them back. (good for her!) On the other hand, a very big navigation box between lots of articles that are very loosely linked under one general header, say, {{Wikipedia articles}}, would be just as evil. So, in time, a balance in the wiki was discovered, and an honor code around the guiding core principle set up so that all template-ians may live on template-ooine in peace. The End! :)

Morale of the story: There are some really lame edit wars just waiting to be found out there. I don't think it's possible to get a merge like that done under the radar.

—davidh.oz.au 11:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Secret Rings fails to make any connections to previous games, I believe, besides characters, and its gameplay falls under odd gameplay. Riders fails because it has odd gameplay. The Advance games...I don'te believe that they make connections to previous games, so I say leave them and Battle in the handheld template. Hello2112 00:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

(previous discussion) A Link to the Past has presented a convincing argument that the Advance series and Rush really are main series games, and it has yet to be rebuffed. —davidh.oz.au 06:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

So is platform being disregarded completely here? If so, then I'm perfectly fine with them bring moved over to this template, despite that I don't truly see any connections to othergames besides Cream's introduction to the series. Hello2112 00:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I suppose you can't have Sonic Advance 2 without Sonic Advance 1 and 3? —davidh.oz.au 11:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop. Adding. Secret. Rings. To. The. Template. It has been determined as having odd gameplay, meaning that it is in the spin-offs template. Hello2112 01:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, it's not the control scheme that's the problem because it is still running and jumping. After all, we can't hold the control scheme against it, otherwise we'd be stuck with only 8-way-d-pad games! :P However, in this case it is the story that's the kicker. I do hope SatSR is retconned into canon like Sonic Rush was, simply because the last game that came close to having such a good reception was Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes. From the article:

"The game has received above average scores praising it for its graphics, varied challenges, as well as its many resolved issues (such as camera angles, poor controls, and other common issues) that were present in preceding 3D Sonic games, making it the most well-received 3D Sonic game since Sonic Heroes."

Aaannd.... look at the bottom of the article: there's 54 references, which is a good indicator of GA material at such an early date. And guess what? In Australia, Target (Australia) now sells it along with Wii-Sports as the two pack-in games for the Wii! Give it 12 months and it'll be back in this template, I'll bet. That said, for now it might be best to err on the side of caution. However, make sure to be kind about it. We don't want to upset anyone, even if we suspect that it'll be back here eventually. ^_^ —davidh.oz.au 11:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• Shadow leads to the character article. - The 4th Snake 20:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that Secret Rings IS part of the main series. There is absolutely NO evidence to disprove it. Oh, the gameplay's different. So? Sonic Adventure's gameplay was radically different from the 2D Sonic games. Does that make it a spinoff too? Oh, and the story's different? Every single 3D Sonic story has been different, in case you haven't noticed. It IS part of the main series.207.224.61.246 18:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• You could have said it nicer. >> There's no real evidence to prove it as a main game, either, now is there? Would we not have to wait for another Sonic game that makes connections to it and establishes it as part of the main canon? Hello2112 16:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
• That's what I thought too. I believe Sonic and the Secret Rings is not a spin-off. But I won't bother you guys if you make it a spin-off. Willy105 12:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

For the 9,756th time, the game's freakin creator said it wasn't a part of the main series! What more proof do you need?!!GrandMasterGalvatron 00:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Revised inclusion criteria

per Supermorff's suggestions:

In times past the Sonic game templates were subject to edit wars over different points of view. The following criteria is a set of principles to guide inclusion of games in a particular navigational template, and is considered a standard that all editors should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.

The purpose of this inclusion criteria is to decide what is included in {{Sonic games}} and where a game goes if it is unsuitable for the main template. Successful main series games usually appear in the main template, while the GameGear series and all other GameBoy games are generally placed in {{Sonic games (handheld)}}. All other games that were somehow lacking in either story, gameplay, reception or platform would be spin offs. However, this guide was not designed to go into detail about how a spin off is different from a handhand game. When in doubt, don't move it.

General inclusion criteria

A game can appear in {{Sonic games}} if and only if:

1. The game is recognized as being a successful^1a main series^1b game;^1c and,
2. The game references other games directly before it and/or later games make reference to it;² and,
3. The game does not have odd gameplay.³
4. Sonic is the main character or appears in it;² and,
5. The plot ties in with other games;² and,

Failing any of the above, said game can appear in {{Sonic games (handheld)}} if:

6. The game is a handheld game and is part of the main series;^1b Or,
7. The game is a handheld game and meets points 3 and 5 above.

A game can appear in {{Sonic games (spin off)}} if the above criteria fails to find a suitable place.

Notes

1a.	Success is evaluated on a game-by-game basis, not by influence in fan works. Suggested evaluation methods: GameRankings, MobyGames, amount of press coverage, sales, etc.
1b.	A main-series game has significant page history at Sonic the Hedgehog (series)#TIMELINE. Note that not all such games are suitable for {{Sonic games}}.
1c.	Games must satisfy both criteria 1a and 1b.
2.	This is the criteria the main article uses.
3.	The game is built around the usual running and jumping. For example, this would include Shadow the Hedgehog, but it would not include Sonic Riders.

Using this criteria

The first five conditions are used to eliminate games from the template, and the last two are used to decide where to place these "eliminated" items. If the first five conditions are met, it is not necessary to consider the remainder of the criteria.

The foremost example of using this criteria is the inclusion of the Sonic Advance series and Sonic Rush in the main template. GameRankings confirms that they sold well and the linked reviews indicate that they are some of the better Sonic games out there (1a), and casual inspection of the main article confirms that they are part of the main series (1b). The other four criteria are more directly verified. Each game has a linked story (2), are platformers (3), Sonic is the main character (4), and they do not contradict each other (5). Sonic Rush and the Sonic Advance series belong in the main template because the first five conditions have been satisfied.

A trivial example of how this inclusion criteria works would be demonstrating that Sonic Riders is a spin off because it fails criterion 3 (gameplay) in the first group and 7 (not a handheld game) in the second group. Another example is Sonic Battle which satisfies all criteria in the first group except for criteria 3 (it is a fighting game), and so it is a handheld game because it satisfies criterion 6 in the second group. In an even more bizarre case, Knuckles' Chaotix would be a spinoff because it features an altered ring system. On the other hand, Sonic Pinball Party is not in {{Sonic games (handheld)}} because it fails criteria 3 and 7 (not a platformer).

A word of warning

Every single attempt by Wikipedians to classify articles with endless sets of "inclusion criteria" has long since proven to be nothing more than an exercise in frustration. There will always be occasions when an article will not fall neatly into one single niche, and these articles tend to make rules like this worthless. When implementing this inclusion criteria, please remember to use common sense and consider that perhaps the most useful piece of information on this page might not be the inclusion criteria but the introductory message.

Comments 2

Revised in an attempt to more fully encompass the other templates. —davidh.oz.au 08:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, this clears up the Advance/Rush main series issue - they'd stay in handheld anyway. This is better. Hello2112 19:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

No they wouldn't. Read it carefully. —davidh.oz.au 02:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Note: By "read it carefully" I mean that you shouldn't even consider the handheld template if the main template will suffice. The body of the criteria is meant to be parsed. —davidh.oz.au 02:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Note: the above comments were made before the following edits was made to the section under discussion:
   diff reword of lead paragraph and added another paragraph to "using this criteria" —davidh.oz.au 02:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
   diff fixed some small typing errors. —davidh.oz.au 12:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Useless?

Well, a template is good in theory, but I'm of the idea that it just isn't necessary. Rather than enter never ending debates over what game should go where (like Secret Rings for example), and IMO, pointlessly separating off games by common features, why don't we just have a link to the list of Sonic games or something? Hell, I'd even make a disambiguation page of sorts and that lists links to each game article with the only distinction being the year released. I'd actually do something similar with the characters. In fact, a link to the Sonic Characters category is more than sufficient for that as it's already separated by the first letter of the name. (Not to mention the game character template is embarrassingly small anyways.)

Comments?GrandMasterGalvatron 03:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

That does indeed sound like a good idea, there are many people who will consider Shadow the Hedgehog as being part of the main series, and many who won't, as well as many who won't include Sonic and the Secret Rings as a main game whilst others won't. Creating a list of Sonic games and released in which year and what not sounds more organized and accessable to me as well.

A list lacks the usability and simplicity of a template. Templates are designed to allow quick navigation to strongly related subjects. Having a list would defeat that purpose. El cid the hero 15:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm against a list. It's one big line going down listing over 50 games. Templates make navigation far simpler. You can pinpoint a template and find a game with ease. With a list, that ease is taken away. Hello2112 00:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The reason why we have nav templates is because the rest of wikipedia has them. For example, see {{navbox generic}}. However, the reason why this is an issue here is because the CVG wikiproject has to split it up over three or four templates because otherwise the navigational templates would be HUGE. Other wikiprojects don't have this problem. At least navigational templates are more useful than categories, which nobody knows about. My advice is it to just grit your teeth and bear with it. —davidh.oz.au 04:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria is now live!

After one and half months of discussion, the inclusion criteria has now gone live! I hope you all enjoyed the process and I hope everyone present has gained an insight into the way wikipedia makes guidelines. As always, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask, or just go ahead and edit the new template documentation. —davidh.oz.au 05:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Sonic Rush Adventure

I think this game should be in this template. It's the sequel to Sonic Rush, after all, which considered to be a main series game now. But then again, the game hasn't come out yet... 206.66.217.144 19:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If it fits the criteria, then it'll probably land here.GrandMasterGalvatron 21:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

main series

Sonics rush is not considered a main series installment, because Blaze the cat is different in that game than in Sonicthe Hedgehog (2006), and speaking of which, Sonic the Hedgehog shouldn't be listed as a main series installment, on account the events of that game never happened, I personally think that Sonic Battle and Sonic Rivals should be listed as main series instead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.244.187.115 (talk) 23:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Super Mario Bros. 2 is a dream and it is considered in the main series of Super Mario, why Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 shouldn't be considered in the main series of Sonic (Don't go delete Super Mario Bros. 2 in the Mario template). And because the events of this game was erased from history, the lives of Blaze and Silver in the future might be heavily modified, then Blaze can now be a princess who defends the Sol Emeralds. Sonic Rush is in that way a main series installment. Also, I think Sonic and the Secret Rings can be in the main series, magical objects are common in the series, why the arabian nights book can't be one of these magical objects. The story of that Sonic game is considered canon in that way and the game is a platformer, different from the others, but it is a platformer. Shadow the Hedgehog isn't a main series installment, I had a lot of trouble to explain that before, but all the previous discussions were deleted. Again with a comparison with Mario, putting Shadow the Hedgehog in the main series is completely like putting Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island in the Mario main series, it can't be there because the main character isn't Sonic/Mario, but Shadow/Yoshi. And I think these games are also main series installments : Sonic the Hedgehog (8-bits), Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-bits), Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos, Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble, Sonic Blast, Sonic the Hedgehog: Pocket Adventure, Sonic Advance, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3 and Sonic Rivals (not Sonic Battle).DjinnFighter 21:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Sheesh, this has been discussed before. Read the previous sections where the reasons why we made the changes, both here and in the archive. We were getting tired of the edits wars and decided to do something about it. Just follow the agreed-upon documentation. —davidh.oz.au 05:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right about sonic 2006 being a main series and sonic Battle not being main series, but neither Sonic Rush or Sonic Rivals can be classed as main series. See the Eggman Nega article and read "story confusion" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.42.165 (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be like SONIC savong the planet eg.Sonic & Knuckles had Sonic stopping Egghead yadayadayada you know what I mean.Like that.And I agree with DjinnFighter.121.210.96.191 (talk) 08:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Sonic and the Secret Rings

Does this game make any direct reference to other main series games? Because if it doesn't, I don't think it should be in the main series template. The game does fit the criteria in the sense that it is a successful game with Sonic in it and the gameplay is the typical running and jumping, but I don't think game makes any direct reference to other main series games. I haven't played this game, so I can't say for sure that it doesn't make a reference. Can someone provide an example of a direct reference in the game? 206.66.217.142 17:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I haven't played it either. In fact, at the moment I haven't played the last five games on the template. I just go by what other people say is in the games. Which makes taking a judgement call on this issue difficult. If I owned a Wii and this game, this issue would be over already. —davidh.oz.au 07:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm all most finished with it and it fail criteria 2 & 5. --Bobby D. DS. 04:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The game is, in essence, a mainstream Sonic game (it is a single player platformer with Sonic as the main playable character). While it does not explicitly reference past Sonic games (like most of the other games, however), and the storyline is slightly different (ie: this time, Eggman is not the main villain...), some references are made in the game, as for example when Sonic meets Sinbad, he mistakes him for Knuckles, which shows he already met him, thus referencing previous Sonic games. Therefore, the game should be listed as a main Sonic game, where it belongs. If Sonic & the Secret Rings is not listed as a mainstream Sonic game, then Shadow the Hedgehog should not either, as the storyline is also different and moreover it does not feature Sonic as the main playable character (some might even say it has an "odd gameplay" and that the title of the game does not even include the word "Sonic", but I do not want to argue about this). While the storyline of Sonic & the Secret Rings is a spin-off from the main series storyline (yet the same could be said about Shadow the Hedgehog), the game itself is a traditional Sonic game, light years away from say Sonic R or Sonic Fighters, which are not even platformers. That being said, I recommend you play and enjoy this wonderful game and consider my suggestion. -87.231.185.217- around 15:00 UTC, 22 June 2007

There was an intensive discustion about the criteria above. You should read it and then make your comments in the comments secton if you disagre. I'm just going by the current criteria. And Shadow the Hedgehog does tie in because it revels shadow true origins.--Bobby D. DS. 19:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the criteria doesn't work. And Sonic does not have "odd gameplay" because it is a platformer. Willy105 17:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I suggest the game should be kept in the main series template, as there is no consensus it is a spin-off game. Moreover, I would like GrandMasterGalvatron to explain which criteria the game fails. -87.231.185.217- 13:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I think this entire debate can be summed up like this... "it's a Wii game, too different and it confuses and angers me GRAAAAH!!!" 208.101.138.65 21:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to put it either place. As far as I'm concerned, just because it's a spin-off, it does not make it not canon. Does it mean it's a main series game? No. But is it canon. Only the future will tell. If a cnon game in 2011 references this game, then it's on. There's really no proof either way. Sabre Knight 13:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Where's Sonic Battle?

You can't have Sonic Advance 3 without Sonic Battle, that's impossible because of the Gizoid. 208.101.130.232 13:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Another example is Sonic Battle which satisfies all criteria in the first group except for criteria 3 (it is a fighting game), and so it is a handheld game because it satisfies criterion 6 in the second group.

quoted from 2.3.3 Using this criteria --Bobby D. DS. 04:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that the one determining factor for placing any game in the Main Series template is if Sonic is the undisputed main character of the game. I.E., Sonic Battle, as enjoyable and Sonic-focused as it is, should not be placed in this category as Emerl takes the place of the lead role. The same should go for Shadow the Hedgehog; Sonic is not the main character, therefore the game is not in the main canon. However, does anyone think the status of Main Game should also be determined by the storyline events?

SaviorOfImagination 20:23, 28 June (UTC)

I argue with that. Mainly, because "Shadow the Hedgehog" is on there. I think I've made my point. DarknessLord 12:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: See my point above. Sabre Knight 13:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Sonic RPG

Hi The Sonic RPG article has been created, but I'm not sure which Sonic templates it fits into. There seems to be pretty strict rules regarding what fits where. Opinions?

The article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_rpg

Philtrauferson 21:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

No you got it right. If it turns out to be a main series game, we'll move it to main series template. —davidh.oz.au 14:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Others

Sonic chaos Sonic triple trouble Sonic blast and 3D blast should be here and Secret rings is not canon because Tails Knuckles and Eggman do not remember him and Sonic riders is canon. Sonic 3 & Knuckles should be in the template somewhere too.

There is no proof that Chaos, Triple Trouble, Blast, 3D Blast are canon. Secret Rings is currently being debated, and the canonicity of Riders has yet to be proven. And sign your goddamn comments. Hello2112 01:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria to be canned

Heh, I really should pay more attention to what's happening on the wiki. Since the timeline was been deleted the main article months ago, I think the inclusion criteria should go to since it was just to get us past a rough patch. —davidh.oz.au 14:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Canned. —davidh.oz.au 12:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sonic 3D

Shouldn't this be included here? And while I think about it, this should be merged with the handheld section. Aside from the system there's no difference. - 82.42.162.112 11:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

No it shouldn't for both of your suggestions. There is nothing to suggest that Sonic 3D ever was canon, which is what this template is for. And handheld =/= canon, for most of the games in that template at least. So no. Hello2112 19:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow! That's EXACTLY why Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine is here, even after being completely ignored on multiple official websites! BRILLIANT!!!

... Honestly. 208.101.140.232 16:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

What? Hello2112 18:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

merged template

When'd this template get merged with the other three back into the metatemplate? Hello2112 18:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

A note about Super Smash Bros. Brawl

I've notice that Super Smash Bros. Brawl keeps on being added to to the spinoff part and removed it, then put a note. Just to want to note Super Smash Bros. Brawl does belong there, because it is not a Sonic-spinoff game. It's the same reason why we don't add the game to every other series templates whose characters are in Brawl. It would like add SSBB to Metal Gear series template. Magiciandude (talk) 02:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who keeps adding it and I agree that it's not part of the sonic series but it's still worth mentioning. Would it be acceptable to make a section for "related games" because there are several games where sonic is the star but they are not strictly part of the sonic series. e.g. Sega superstars and sega superstars tennis. 81.98.227.168 (talk) 16:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

To settle the topic, how about a row for just cameo appearances? --Hasek is the best (talk) 21:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Main series

Just a few points I'd like to make:

1. Sonic 06's events were erased at the end... so why is it consider a "main adventure".
2. Shadow the Hedgehog may of not stared Sonic, but why would it be a spin-off?
3. What maks SatSR a spin-off?
4. We don't know the status of Sonic Unleashed yet. Claycrow (talk) 16:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Spin-offs?

I just notice,like,half the template is gone. WTF? I don't know how to revert back to the last change, so... —Preceding unsigned comment added by GENERALZERO (talk • contribs) 03:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

By going to "History", going back to the last post before where half the template was removed, then re-adding it back. Don't worry, I put it back. CBFan (talk) 08:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

And is there any reason why this has to be an indiscriminate list of every Sonic game ever made? The template takes up half of the space on the page the way it's set-up. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Because that's what the template is for. I mean, what point is there calling it a "Sonic Game" template if several of the games, which clearly are Sonic games, are missing? Especially as most of them have articles. True, those that don't probably shouldn't be there, and I don't really see where a compilation pack fits in, but a Sonic game is a Sonic game. CBFan (talk) 20:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

And it's large. Excessively large. Compare it to the Mario template, for instance, and you'll see how the template should be done. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference, however. There isn't a Mario template. There are several Mario templates. Each game is arranged by whatever template it belongs in, and kept there, meaning that they all link back eventually. What you did just kicked the spin-offs right in the face and ignored them. I certainly saw no attempt at a "Sonic Spin-Off" template being made. And besides, from what I gather from the rest of this discussion board, there appears to be a few problems concerning what counts as a spin-off and what doesn't. I mean, obviously the ones where Sonic isn't playable/there...but then what? CBFan (talk) 21:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The only one that's in dispute is Sonic and the Secret Rings. Templates constantly have disputes, why should this be an exception? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't explain you completely dismissing them as Sonic games. I saw no attempt made to create another template. All I saw was dismissal. CBFan (talk) 13:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Then make one. Every single Sonic game in the history of its existence does NOT need representation on a navigational template. That's what categories are for. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

You're the one who disregarded them as Sonic games, so YOU do it. Or, better yet, let someone who knows what they're doing do it. CBFan (talk) 10:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I have created a template for compilation games. It is at Template:Sonic game compilations. Would still need templates for the spinoffs and the unreleased games (although with only two, I don't know that there's much point) before trimming the template, if that is what we decide to do. Also, a meta-navigation template to connect the four. Ben Standeven (talk) 02:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The "documentation"

The instructions section says:

The foremost example of using this criteria is the inclusion of the Sonic Advance series and Sonic Rush under "Main series." GameRankings confirms that they sold well and the linked reviews indicate that they are some of the better Sonic games out there (1a), and casual inspection of the main article confirms that they are part of the main series (1b). The other four criteria are more directly verified. Each game has a linked story (2), are platformers (3), Sonic is the main character (4), and they do not contradict each other (5). Sonic Rush and the Sonic Advance series belong in the main template because the first five conditions have been satisfied.

But in fact, Advance and Rush are listed under "Handhelds". So either the instructions or the template should be changed...Ben Standeven (talk) 02:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Noinclude

These lines:

[[fr:Modèle:Sonic]]

[[ja:Template:ソニックシリーズ]]

[[simple:Template:SonicGames]]

[[th:โซนิคแอดเวนเจอร์]]

should be put into <noinclude>. And that simple-thing should be removed, since it doesn't exist (anymore?)...
194.105.96.202 (talk) 14:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. Tony Myers (talk) 20:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggesting separate templates for each category

After reading discussion above, how about we do the same type of thing with the Sonic Compilations template and make handheld, Main series, and Spinoffs different templates instead? It takes off a lot of controversy and confusion. --Hasek is the best (talk) 01:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

After no response I will start making the separate templates soon. --Hasek is the best (talk) 22:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, pehaphs this idea is kind of cheesy. Using separate templates wuld diminish the navigation. However I'd still like Unfinished games thrown in there. --Hasek is the best (talk) 22:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, they used to be that way, but were all merged (probably because people couldn't agree where to put Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic and the Secret Rings). As for cancelled games, I'm not sure where to put them. Like I said, it doesn't make much sense to create a template for just two games.Ben Standeven (talk) 04:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I like this new template, but I think it needs some minor changes. -Merge the main series sections togeather (I can see seperating the 2D from 3D, but come on, it's main series or it isn't) -Move the Spin-off section between the Sonic Riders section and Edutainment section (personally, I believe the Edutainment games should be considered spins-offs, but I can see why they're seperated)

But what does anyone else think? LightningLuigi (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree.GENERALZERO (talk) 02:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 21:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It should be just by cannonicity.

Cannon: Sonic 1, 2, 3, etc.

NonCannon: Shuffle, Drift, Fighters, etc.

Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 21:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I say we just leave it the way it was, because even if it is part of the "Storybook Series", it has nothing to do with the main storyline, like Sonic Unleashed, so it would still be a spin-off.GENERALZERO (talk) 02:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I've been thinking about it, and there may be a way to orginize each game into it's respective series while reducing the number of sub-templates. What does everyone think about this layout:

Main Series (Console): Sonic the Hedgehog (1991) • Sonic 2 • Sonic 3 • Sonic & Knuckles • Sonic Adventure • Sonic Adventure 2 • Sonic Heros • Shadow the Hedgehog • Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) • Sonic Unleashed

Main Series (Handheld): Sonic the Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic Chaos • Sonic Triple Trouble • Sonic Blast • Sonic Labyrinth • Sonic Pocket Adventure • Sonic Battle • Sonic Advance • 2 • 3 • Sonic Rush • Sonic Rush Adventure • Sonic Rivals • 2 • Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood

Spin-offs: Sonic Eraser • Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car • SegaSonic the Hedgehog • SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter • Sonic Spinball • Sonic Drift • 2 • Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine • Sonic Gameworld • Wacky Worlds Creativity Studio • Tails and the Music Maker • Tails' Skypatrol • Tails Adventure • Knuckles' Chaotix • Sonic the Fighters • Sonic 3D • Sonic R • Sonic's Schoolhouse • Sonic Shuffle • Sonic Pinball Party • Sonic Riders • Zero Gravity • Sonic and the Secret Rings • Sonic and the Black Knight • Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games

Some edits may be nessacary, but I believe this template design could work very well. What does everyone else think? LightningLuigi (talk) 03:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge Other Console, and Other into Spinoff, and it'll be fine. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 04:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, how does it look now? LightningLuigi (talk) 16:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no change...Perhaps I should do it... Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 16:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Here

I think that I ma have missed a few games though... Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 18:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC) I hadn't actually edited the template yet, I edited my sample template above. I was waiting for someone's approval.

Anyway, your template was slightly inaccurate, so I edited it. The main flaws were in the Home Console Spin-off section, where many of the games in that category were actually handheld (though some had console ports, the main system was handheld, as the console versions were not released in as many regions as the handheld versions). I also edited the order of some of the games to be cronological and added Sonic Chaos, Triple Trouble, and Blast to the Handheld Main Series, under the basis that they are Sonic platform games simular in design to both the console games and other main series handheld games.

If you (or anyone) would like to change the template, I ask that it is discussed here first so it don't lead to an edit war (I myself admit I should have posted first before making my edits, and I apologize). —Preceding unsigned comment added by LightningLuigi (talk • contribs) 22:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for catching my mistakes. I've forgotten the order of some games. But, I suggest that games that were both home, and handheld, that it's put under both sections. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 22:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but I'll put the Game Gear games that were ported to the Master System under the Home Console Spin-off section, since they shouldn't be considered part of the home console main series. LightningLuigi (talk) 23:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Actualy, that select of games would go under both. I just noticed, we should probably add cameos, and mobile Sonic games as well... Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 23:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Cameos would probabilly be too numerious to list, and there is already a section in Sonic's charecter page listing cameos, but we could add a link to that section to the template. And if there is any original Sonic games for moblie phones, then I see no reason why they shouldn't be added. 03:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I prefered the template before the current one, it seemed more organised, this seems a little cluttered. -[The-DC]- (talk) 07:59, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The issue with the last one was that everthing was a little to spaced out, this one is a little more compressed. But if you have any specific seggestions for the template, by all means, please share them. LightningLuigi (talk) 03:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Continuation

I shall be adding the Mobile Sonic games to the template, though, I believe none have articles, so this may be pointless. As to DC, the previous version was just thrown about be sequals, it's alot neater now, and organises games by their cannonicty, which is much more encyclopedic. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 03:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Sonic Storybook Series

Sega has announced that Black Knight is a sequel to Secret Rings and part of the "Storybook series". Should we add a new part to the template with Secret Rings and Black Knight? Willy105 (talk) 14:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Seeing how Sonic and the secret Rings Is in the spin offs section, I guess it should go in there as well.GENERALZERO (talk) 20:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

If the Storybook series gets it's own section, shouldn't the Sonic Riders series get it's own section, or maybe even the Sonic Adventure series? Hawkfrost18 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 05:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Storybook series should get its own section, its not part of the main canon, but its not a spin-off. -[The-DC]- (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Errr...DC, all the games are cannon. The spinoffs just aren't part of the main series. SATSR & SATBK are spinoffs. End of story. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Sonic Battle?

I've never played the game personally, but apprantly its a spin-off of Sonic Advance, so should it be included as part of the Sonic Advance series? -[The-DC]- (talk) 11:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Where in the hell did you hear that? Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 21:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

ONM -[The-DC]- (talk) 19:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

What in the hell is ONM? Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Offical Nintendo Magazine, UK. Good enough source? -[The-DC]- (talk) 07:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

They were wrong. Nintendo mags have given false info on numerous occassions. (IE: Big & Shadow WON'T b in SATSR!!! Hey, Nintendo! GUESS WHAT! THEY WERE!!!!) Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

New Template Design

It's organized entirely by Generation, but you can still see which games are in the main series. (They're bold)

Ordered by generation=NO Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 03:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It's ok but looks kind of unorganized still. I prefered the one above but here I made some changes to it:

And I'd hate to see Sonic 3D in Spinoffs since

1. You have to still collect the same number (7) of Chaos Emeralds
2. No different gameplay (perspective doesn't count; this is because it was between Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure to it was the turning point of next gen Sonic you can say
3. Still facing Robotnik as Sonic just like any other game except again, perspective. --Hasek is the best (talk) 00:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That's very nice Hasek! 3D, I believe WAS Main Series. Though, I get the feeling that the current template is missing some games... Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 00:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Also it's probably because Link to the Past said above we don't need every Sonic game, well not exactly. We need it as accurate as possible. If the games weren't ported to handhelds the template would be so much easier to fix. At least we got the basic idea of the template now. --Hasek is the best (talk) 01:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

True. I believe that all of the games (Yes, cameos, cancelled games, ports, and mobile games) should be in the template, or it's incomplete. It's good to see another user with the same basic idea! Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 01:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, hope everyone agrees here so this controversy can finally end...we just have to wait now. --Hasek is the best (talk) 02:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, then! Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 02:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Sonic Chronicles?

Why was it just removed from the main series? Because it's an RPG? It's a valid game just like Sonic Battle, so there should be no excuses. And "keep dreaming buddy" is hardly a worthy reason to kick it off. 71.224.116.166 (talk) 04:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Then explain your proof of how it's main series. Did Bioware come to you in a dream all "lololololol. Hi n00b. TDB is main series. lolololol"? Source much! Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 04:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Umm...? Mature much?

Okay, for one thing, it follows up after Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 3, which is part of the main series. It'll have Gizoids in it. Second, the consensus reached above (see Sonic RPG) was to consider it a main series game. 208.101.164.253 (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

We don't know if it follows those 2. -.- Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 00:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Alright then. Remain skeptical. This info was hacked out of the official site just like the Sonic Unleashed promo. Just expect to move it to the main series after it's released. 208.101.130.208 (talk) 17:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.sega.com/sonicchronicles/us/images/subNavThumb_gizoids.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.130.208 (talk) 23:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"YOU FREAKING RETARD!!!!"

Look, I understand now that I might have stepped into the middle of an ongoing flame/edit-war, but that's still no reason for ANYBODY to say stuff like this! The game I added (Sonic: The Fated Hour) is marked with a SonicGames-tag. And the template is called "Sonic the Hedgehog video games", not "Important Sonic Games". Also, the template already was on the game's page. So I came to the conclusion it was a mistake/inconsistency, and it should be added to the template. Which is what I did. I'm (now) very sorry that I didn't consult anybody else before doing it, but I cannot see any reason for such a response. SLJCOAAATR 1, if you can't just tell some new guy he did something wrong in a normal fasion, then don't say/edit anything at all. --DanielPharos (talk) 20:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. 'm just left in a bad mood from two other annoying editors...Apologies! The reason why it wasn't included is because, it's a fangame. Fanfic related stuff serves no purpose on Wiki. They can be added to the user sandbox if they wish. That's what I'm doing. Again, sorry for my rudeness... Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The apology doesn't mean much, in my view. Skeletal's talk page is more than enough proof of that. People post notes for him to calm down, he apologizes (in some cases), then goes back to his rude ways. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Granted, the notes come from people because you beg them to do so. I try to aim my rudeness at you, Rob. And I will do so, untill you stop acting like an annoying, whining child, and grow up, and face your problems, instead of crying to admins. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You wont accept it when people disagree with you, so you attack. As I said before: leave me the hell alone. Your attacks posted on your user space, as well as various talk pages is both immature and disruptive. RobJ1981 (talk) 21:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi as an admin, I can't help but notice SLJCOAAATR reply above. Obviously this is completely unacceptable, and i will take action because of it. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Apology accepted. I can totally understand it when you 'lose it' during an edit-war. So no hard feelings. I can't help you with getting unblock though, as that's entirely up to the admins. --DanielPharos (talk) 22:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Hey! Guys! Let's calm down and just chill. Let's trust try to improve the template and just...chill.GENERALZERO (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, this is getting pathetic. All this confusion over a template is weird. Hopefully this dilemma can be sorted out ASAP and reach a consensus. --Hasek is the best (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

My reasons for changing the Sonic series template! Part 1: Sonic '06.

Reason 1: Putting Sonic '06 in the spin-off section. First, the game's events end up being erased from history, and all that canonically happens is Sonic visiting Elise's parade. For much better proof that it is a spin-off, there is an article that states Sonic Team cuts ties with Sonic '06 right here: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=186523 . Lastly, this game contradicts the earlier Sonic games A LOT, such as when Silver gives Elise the blue chaos emerald ten years before the present, wiping out every main series Sonic game except Sonic 1 (1991), because that game only featured six Chaos Emeralds. Now, who agrees that Sonic '06 should be moved to the Home console Spin-off section, and who disagrees? Majority and common sense will rule whether or not it is changed. Please respond with your opinion! Usernamesarekewl (talk) 19:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Notice how they refer to Sonic Nex-Gen as the "Last Game", when the previous Sonic game was Zero Gravity. SEGA stated many times, that it is Main Series. Just bcause you don't like that fact, and the fact that it causes loop-holes doesn't mean that it's a spin-off. We go by what SEGA says. They even state it in that article. Get over it. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 19:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I completely agree with Skeletal, Sonic 06 is Main Series. It has simular gameplay as other Main Series games, and the story connects to the other games (though there are gaps). And just because the story didn't technicially happen, the game still happened, so like it or not, it is Main Series. LightningLuigi (talk) 20:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Lightning. I'm sick of vandals ranting, and coming up with excuses, simply because they didn't like certain games. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Uh... so we have two for main series, do we have anyone for spin-off? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.26.20 (talk) 21:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

We're not going by opinions. We're going by PROOF. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 21:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me where your proof is. A link? An article? Please show me and I'll agree with you. 72.201.26.20 (talk) 21:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Also please tell me an example where it connects with other games. 72.201.26.20 (talk) 21:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Look at the game's article's refs! SEGA has stated them. We're listening to them. Not your opinions. Get over it, and move on with your life. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 21:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I looked at all the references, which article states that it's a main series game? And how do you explain the Blaze dilemma. I'm not trying to say it's not a main series game anymore, I'm just curious. :) Usernamesarekewl (talk) 21:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

SEGA many times referredto it as the next Sonic game. They do this only with main series games. Notice how in you above source, SEGA calls it the last game, before Unleashed, which is main series. It had the traditional gameplay, and followed up after the events of previous main series, and the faetured the main characters.

As for Blaze, remember when she locked herself & Iblis into another dimension? For whatever reason, erasing Solaris didn't bring Blaze back. Time moves differently on this alternate dimension (Like in Sonic X S3) ,so when Sonic went to that dimension, and vice-versa, they were on a similar timeline. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 23:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ohhhh, ok thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.26.20 (talk) 00:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Mhm. There's more, too. You just gotta look around. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 00:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What about the Sonic Rush-Sonic Rivals dilemma... I don't get it- is Eggman Nega Eggman's other-dimensional counterpart or his descendant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.26.20 (talk) 04:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Simple. Sonic Rivals doesn't count, so Eggman Nega is Eggman's dimensional counterpart. It wasn't even released in Japan, and we know that the Japanese continuity is the one in which the series is supported on. I say we move Rivals to spinoffs. I'd also move Sonic 2006 to spinoffs since Sega's going to be ignoring it, but I'll leave that one open for more debate.

I will say this, though - Sega has not released an official explanation about how Blaze was in the future in Sonic 2006 even though it's established that her home is in another universe. No, the dimension thing doesn't count, since 1) that doesn't explain how she's been royalty, and 2) you've think Sonic would recognize her in Sonic 2006 or that Blaze would retain some memory of Sonic 2006 (depending on which you think occurs first). Going around these two holes is just assuming things. The fact of the matter is, these games were developed independent of each other. I, for one, think it's obvious that Sonic 2006 / Rivals and Rush occur in separate continuities. 208.101.130.208 (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Am I the only one who remembers the part in Nex-Gen where Blaze locked herself, and Iblis into another dimension? For whatever reason, reverting the game's events, didn't take Blaze out of the dimension. Also, Nega, he's from an alternate dimension. Went to Sonic's future (Silver's time) Gotstuck there. Notice how in the Rivals games, Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles don't know it's Nega. The questions answer themselves... -.- People just act like retards who don't pay attention to the cutscenes... -.- Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 19:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

That's irrelevent. Like I said, it doesn't explain Blaze being royalty from another dimension if she's originally from the future. As for Eggman Nega, yes, I'm well aware that Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles don't know it's really him, but his character is written entirely. In the Rush games, he's another version of Eggman, no question, and Blaze has a prior history with him. In the Rivals games, though, he's suddenly Eggman's descendant, and it's Silver that has some sort of relationship with him. In order for Rush and Rivals to co-exist in the same continuity, the only explanation is if there are two Eggman Negas - one from another dimension and one from the future. And like I said, Rivals wasn't released in Japan. 208.101.130.208 (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It was confirmed by Taylor Smith that it's the same Nega in both series'. Obviously, Rivals takes place some time after Rush. How long? Don't know. Blaze being royality, that can be explained with, "They though that she was a God with her magic powers (pryokenetics AKA Firebending). They were scared of her at first. Years later when they relised that she meant no harm, they made her Princess." And Rivals not in Japan doesn't mean anything. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. Soul 21:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you for real? I'd say Occam's Razor applies here. If one theory has less "maybes" in it than another, it should be considered correct. There is no way Sonic 2K6 and Sonic Rush can exist in the same continuity without us rearranging established facts in the series and adding extensive amounts of fanon. You may say, "Blaze went to another dimension at the end of '06!" but the game never says explicitly what happened to her. Pray tell, if Blaze could use Chaos Control, why did she ask Silver to do it for her? Obviously, she asked him to seal her in another dimension, and when he refused she took matters into her own hands and destroyed herself. Then you might say "Time changes in one dimension don't affect others," but really, have Sega ever said that? You're just making up how you think space-time distortions work in Sonic games; Sega never said that Blaze stayed in another dimension because the time reset didn't affect other dimensions, so you're using more guesswork. Finally, you're saying "Maybe Blaze got adopted by the royal family of a new world because they saw her fire powers and thought she was a god!" and that's really an example of wishful thinking. First of all, Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure make it clear that Blaze was born and raised in the other world, and that her family line had been there for years. Her official Sega profile even says she was born in another world. What you're saying is a huge stretch. And if they thought she was a god, why make her a princess of all things? Why not a ruler? And why would Blaze be held responsible for taking care of the Sol Emeralds if she didn't even come from that world? And if Blaze isn't really from the other world, then don't you think it's a huge coincidence that she is pyrokinetic, and the emeralds in the other world just happen to have be fire-based? It could never work that way. The only way Rush and 2K6 can be connected is through far-fetched fan theories that contradict official evidence from Sega, and the fact that you're criticizing other people because their facts don't come directly from Sega makes you a hypocrite if you're using fanon to explain how the games can go together. Also, if you try to say that Rush doesn't count because it's a handheld, and that Sonic 2K6 should be considered the truth instead, then know that Sonic 2K6 is the only Sonic game that ever portrays Blaze as being from the future. Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Riders, Sonic Riders Zero Gravity, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games and her official Sonic Channel profile (which is made by Sega, and therefore should be considered the canon truth) all say she's "a princess from another dimension". All that information outweighs any notion of her being from the future. Until Sega says otherwise, I'm almost sure that Sonic Rush, Sonic Rivals and Sonic 2K6 take place in separate continuities, that's the simplest and most logical answer, and according to Occam's Razor, that answer wins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.101.27 (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone explain to me how the Game Gear / Master System games aren't handheld spinoffs.

They definitely seem like alternate continuity games. In fact, the Japanese manual of Sonic & Tails 2 implies that this was Sonic's first meeting with Knuckles. This alone should indicate that they don't occur in the main series. Quittaboi (talk) 17:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Manuals make mistakes. Notice hw the Heroes 1 had a different age for Rouge? Notice how Cd's called Amy a princess? Notice how Chaotix called Charmy 16? Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 19:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

^ This is the JAPANESE manual we're talking about - a solid source. 208.101.130.208 (talk) 22:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You missed the point; manuals make mistakes, it doesn't matter what language it was written it. LightningLuigi (talk) 12:41, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

So the best solution is to ignore it when nothing else says otherwise. Brilliant... You're on your own, Wikipedia. I'm out. 208.101.130.208 (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Ignore it. Simple mistakes. That's all. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. Soul 21:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. That's it.

After extensive reasearch, I have decided these things:

Sonic '06 and the Sonic Rivals series are NOT canon to the main series. There is NO way Rush, Rivals, and '06 can exist in the same continuity! And the Rush series is definetely canon.

None of the Sonic Game Gear games are canon to the main series. There is an interview here:

http://www.kafka-is-silly.net/sonicworld/angel_island_interviews/interviews/1997/sonic_1997_unknown_2.htm

... that states that Yuji Naka didn't even know some of the Game Gear games existed! Plus, they contradict most other games that are definetely canon (especially Sonic Triple Trouble) and so they shouldn't be canon to the main series. Lastly...

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood should be canon! It deals VERY explicitly with previous definite canon Sonic games (especially the Adventure series, Sonic Advance 3 and Sonic Battle) and it even continues the stories of these games! Bioware even stated that they were going to fix up plotholes left from other games.

But every time I change something, Skeletal yells at and insults me and immediately changes it back! Who else is tired of this? And who else agrees with me? Somebody brave stand up! The template should be changed to the way it should be! I know from other discussion topics that many ppl agree with me! Thanks for readin' this. Usernamesarekewl (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I never insulted you, I proved your theories to be incorrect. I've already explained everything (How Nex-Gen, Rush, and Rivals are main series, and even explained the plotholes to you.) And, you just tried to prove yourself with a fansite, that doesn't give proof that it's true. Good job. Not. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. Soul 00:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, you know, except for the fact that none of your information came from Sega when you explained the plotholes. You said "Blaze stayed in the other dimension after the time reset," "Time resets don't affect other dimensions in Sonic" and "The people in the other dimension loved Blaze and adopted her as their princess when they saw her fire powers," NONE of which were ever confirmed by Sega. You're using guesswork and fanon theories to explain plotholes, then you criticize other people when their information doesn't come directly from a Sega site. Hypocrite. Also, Blaze's official Sega profile, found on Sega's official website, says Blaze was born in another dimension and never even mentions her role in Sonic 2K6. So now you're the one using unfounded fan speculation. Oh, and also, your use of sarcasm is extremely immature and poorly executed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.101.27 (talk) 00:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Come on, guys. Can we just handle this like adults? Now the Main Series should stay the way it is. I feel the Game Gear sections is large enough to separate it from the other portables. Arcade and Canceled should stay the same. I have no idea about the others. Take these ideas into consideration before complaining. Also the word "Cancelled" is spelled wrong. There is one "l", not two.GENERALZERO (talk) 00:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I too believe the template should remain as it is. To me, the story doesn't matter; there will always be gaps in every story, but it mustn't be considered. All that really matters is gameplay. Each game currently under the main series category all share the same type of plateforming gameplay, and that's all that really matters, to me anyway. I know I'll stand by my opinion, and you'll stand by yours, so arguing seems unreasonable. But is there anyway we could come to a reasonable compermise? LightningLuigi (talk) 03:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This is what I'm talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.26.20 (talk) 22:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Come on, guys. We all know fansites are total liars that don't specialize in Sonic the Hedgehog, especially when they go ahead and source themselves. Oh look, we have to grab our information from Sega's official (product) website! Hmm, looks like they don't have an interviews section. Therefore, your interview is null and void, it never existed and I can keep enforcing whatever I believe. </sarcasm>

But seriously, Wikipedia's game-related information as of late has taken a downward spiral. It used to be somewhat flexible, but now you've got the "crusaders" running around like lawyers trying to make things as straightforward as possible. That's probably why some fans created special wikis of their series, so no one else can bastardize them. 208.101.159.251 (talk) 18:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

GeneralZero, "Cancelled" is British English, "Canceled" is American English. I prefer BrEn, but I'm biased. Just thought I'd clear that up. Malpass93 (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sonic Pinball Party Edit/Merge with Compilation

After searching for some of the older system roms online, I found a good chunk of games that were missing from this list... Sonic Pinball Party for GBA is a good example; if Sonic Spinball would be considered a Console Spinoff, wouldn't Pinball Party be listed under Handheld Spinoffs?

The other games I found not listed here were compilations. I had to do a wiki search for Sonic Jam to find if it even had an article, and the group listed on the article was compilations. I figured it would be easier to add the comp. group to this list instead of adding the game list to all of the comp. games' articles in addition to the lists they already had.

I apologize if this angers anyone in the discussion; I only read through about half of the comments here, and although I respect the rules listed, I find that it defeats the purpose of Wiki's Encyclopedic layout not to give as much information as possible in the clearest and most concise way possible -- adding this section to the list not only keeps wiki pros from having to search for the games' articles, but also gives newcomers easy access to information for games they otherwise may not have known existed. Irontobias (talk) 20:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems like a good idea. Malpass93 (talk) 06:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Worked out nice. Well done! _Skeletal SLJCOAAATR ^Soulsor 02:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

_Skeletal SLJCOAAATR ^Soulsor 18:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)== Chronicles ==

...should be considered for main series. :D -[The-DC]- (talk) 17:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? Because you said so? _Skeletal SLJCOAAATR ^Soulsor 02:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

It really should. Like Bioware said a few times is that it will fill in the gaps from past games. GENERALZERO (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The only issue I have with that is that Chronicals doesn't follow traditional Sonic gameplay. The story may sync with the main series games, but because it's a RPG, its a spinoff, no questions asked. LightningLuigi (talk) 17:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but, Lightning, Battle didn't either, and is deemed as main series. I currently see no prblems with Chronicles as main series. _Skeletal SLJCOAAATR ^Soulsor 18:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't believe Sonic Battle belongs in main series either. I guess I just never bothered to move it. LightningLuigi (talk) 02:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I've merged the compilations (this template) to here. Explorer09 (talk) 13:16, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Sonic CD

I don't think Sonic the Hedgehog CD should be included into the main series because it isn't on a "main" Sega console. The Sega CD was a spin-off of the Genesis, and therefore Sonic CD should be considered a spin-off of the main Sonic series.

In addition, the main page for the Sonic series clearly states:

"The original four main Sonic titles for the Mega Drive/Genesis, released between 1991 and 1994, were:

   * Sonic the Hedgehog

   * Sonic 2

   * Sonic 3

   * Sonic & Knuckles"

Sonic CD is not mentioned.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by AnAlbinoRhino (talk • contribs) 01:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Now hold on, you're using Wikipedia for your argument? I suggest you read this. [2]GENERALZERO (talk) 01:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Well first of all the entire Wikipedia site should be consistent. You can't have the main page for the Sonic series leave Sonic CD out, then have the template at the bottom include it.

In any case, I read that article, but it doesn't really matter if Sonic CD was at one point Sonic 2. This is similar to how Resident Evil Code: Veronica was initially planned to be Resident Evil 3 (although this isn't the best example because Code: Veronica is considered a main Resident Evil series entry, but you get my point). It doesn't matter that Sonic CD was at one point Sonic 2 because in the end it didn't end up that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnAlbinoRhino (talk • contribs) 19:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It hardly matters what system its on. A main series game is simply a game with one reaccuring gameplay and one reaccuring major charecter, published on a system that is or postdates the console the original game was published. LightningLuigi (talk) 02:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Series categories

Where is that from? I was just wondering if SEGA decided that or we did.Fairfieldfencer FFF 10:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I do believe that was SEGA. A while ago, EGM said "It's been a while since a main series game was released", followed with "(3 Spin-offs in 2007 alone)". GENERALZERO (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I also remember hearing that a while ago. I believe it has also been stated that Battle, and Chronicles are main series. _Skeletal SLJCOAAATR ^Soulsor 21:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Shorten the template

I've made a shortened version of this template. May I put this to the template page?

Explorer09 (talk) 04:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

A much shorter version:

Explorer09 (talk) 04:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Shadow the Hedgehog is a spin-off, not part of the main series.

Proof here: http://www.totalvideogames.com/Shadow-the-Hedgehog/news/SEGA-Announce-Shadow-the-Hedgehog-7102.html

Not to get involved with this template, but a similar discussion is going on here. This is essentially the same sort of thing being proposed. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 04:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that has nothing to do with the Sonic Template. The point of this Talk Page is to focus on the Sonic the Hedgehog Template, not The Legend Of Zelda. GENERALZERO (talk) 00:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

It's relevant insofar as it's the same thing the IP person is asserting, whom is using the same sorts of sources to back it up. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 00:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, in that case, the sources, and thus the opinions, are null. It's the same person. CBFan (talk) 10:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Chaotix

Why isn't this game a main series? It introduces new charcters to the series and has some influence on Sonic Heroes (greatly), Sonic Advance 3, and Shadow the Hedgehog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.8.8 (talk) 19:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Adventure is Main Series...

For some reason, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Unleashed have been removed from the main series. They are indeed in the main series. The first two offer most of the main series plots later on (Chaos data absorbed by Metal Sonic, the E-Series, Big, Shadow, Rouge, the ARK), and they offer the same gameplay as later games (Heroes, Shadow, etc.), so why do they now have their own section?

Also, Secret Rings/Black Knight should not have their own section. They should be with the rest of the spinoffs, really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.210.12 (talk) 00:33, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

O.K., someone kinda fixed it, but now Secret Rings and Black Knight are gone. Can someone put 'em back? Dungeonman262 (talk) 03:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree about Secret Rings and Black Knight - I don't know why they have their own section. If you're going to give them their own section, there's no reason why you shouldn't give Adventure, Advance, Rush, Rival, Riders and any other games with a direct sequel their own section too, and that would make the whole layout (and the debate, which is far more serious than it should be for a list of games) far too complex.

Mind you, I think the whole " criteria for main series" malarkey is rubbish, so this will probably be disregarded. Philtrauferson (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Release Dates

I just came an idea. The template has their year dates next to them, so why not just put them in the year they were released, with the year in parenthesis. and not like where each year has a section the template, with having released and cancelled since there wasn't a year for them. And how come Heroes and Advance 2 have 2 years? GENERALZERO (talk) 00:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

The years can easily be seen by going to their article. I think it's pointless. I say remove. Also, I think that's because they were re-released? SLJCOAAATR ^{4 6 8 15 16 23 42 108 305 316} 01:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Advance 2 wasn't re-released, nor Heroes. But, what do you think about the order? Because the Rush and Rivals series are considered Spin-Offs, and I don't think the hand-held games have a "Main Series" or "Spin-Offs" because they're all spin-offs. I think the first five sections should be combined, and put in chronological order. Like it's been said before, the way it is now makes it more complicated. GENERALZERO (talk) 05:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

ACTUALLY, Heroes was re-released for the PC. :P I believe Advance 2 was in some re-release combo pak. Not too sure....

Also, Rush, Rush Adventure, Rivals, and Rivals 2 are all main series. They're the results of '06 being erased, and are, to say, as Daniel Faraday would put it, broke the rope, got around the knot, and started a new string. In essence, they're main series, tie into Archie, which is edging into canon, and have currently unknown lasting effects on future games. Or, at least, that's what Ian Flynn says Sega told him. I have no reason to doubt such a man. SLJCOAAATR ^{4 6 8 15 16 23 42 108 305 316} 23:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It is true that the release years can be seen from the articles, but isn't it far more convenient to see them in the template as well? Most other game articles contain these release years and there is no reason at all why this one should be an exception. --Meph (talk) 12:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Sonic and Sega All-Star Racing

Seriously, that shouldn't be there. If Sega Superstars Tennis can't be on here, neither should this game. 79.77.74.104 (talk) 20:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Regarding handhelds

I noticed a lot of people were uneasy with the main series handhelds being put into a separate group, which is indeed OR, however it makes the table more organized to put them in a separate list, so therefore I suggest we do this:

Opinions? Perhaps that should also be done for the spin-offs as well. - MK (^t/_c) 02:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I suppose that that would be acceptable, but spin-offs I cannot abide by. A spin-off's a spin-off - one may be more little known than the other, but it's not like people will be confused to see Sonic Eraser next to Sonic Spinball. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I figured, that's why I didn't touch the spin-off section. - MK (^t/_c) 02:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the current tablet, but just an addendum...

[Since apparently it's protected from non-users.]

Someone put the Rivals games under handhelds. There's no reason it's in the console section. Also we need to add Sonic Jam, Sonic Gems Collection and Sonic Classics Collection under compilations. Lastly (and this is just opinion), wouldn't you consider Shadow and Sonic 06 spinoffs? 67.214.25.225 (talk) 02:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Jam, Gems, etc redirect to the main compilation page, which is what is linked on the side. I'll let someone else handle the rest. - MK (^t/_c) 15:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Sonic Jam

In response to something I've had to fix more than once, I shall issue a declaration: Do not add Sonic Jam to the compilations group unless you have recreated that article with such content that it will not be speedy deleted and the link in the template will remain relevant. Tezero (talk) 01:26, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Add a new group for the "original series"

Should we add a new group for the "original series"? That would be Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic 4? If we were to do that, then we could rename the "main series" to something like the "modern series". This would make things more organised. --Josh (Mephiles602) 21:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so, IMO because that would require a source and Sega has tended to group them together. IIRC Sonic 4 was meant to bridge the gap between S&K and SA1, so I assume it will be just act as an interquel to that series. That and there's an army of "modern series" fanboys that like to pounce on any decision that makes the classic games seem separate. - MK (^t/_c) 00:48, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I think we should. Sonics 1, 2, 3, &K, and 4 in the 2D console series, and the others (including Sonic Colors) in the 3D console series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.154.105 (talk) 02:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Sonic Rivals is not part of the main series.

I'm sure the Sonic Rivals games are more like spinoff games. Railer-man (talk) 19:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. They weren't even released in Japan. 208.101.147.253 (talk) 16:23, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Uh, being a Western-only release isn't a good reason. Sonic Riders is a spin-off, and it had a Japanese release. Railer-man (talk) 15:33, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I seem to be getting no reply. Heaven knows why. Railer-man (talk) 17:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

What to do with all the 3D games?

Where do we put all of the 3D sonic games since Sonic 4 continues from Sonic and Knuckles? iluvthissiteIluvthissite (talk) 16:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Subgroups for "spin-off games"?

Hello. I think that subgroups could be made for some of the Spin-offs games. Something like this:

Of course, if you have better suggestion or categorization than I, post it here. --Explorer09 (talk) 13:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I fully support this. You could add a "Story Book Series" tab as well. Sergecross73 msg me 17:41, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

This seems better than the current version. Sergecross73's idea about the Story Book Series being added is good too. Perhaps "Olympic-themed" should be changed to something else that might include Shuffle; also the classification of Knuckles' Chaotix as a spinoff and Shadow's game as a main game seems arbitary, they should be classified similarly. The classification criteria needs to be rewritten, it's so old it references things that don't exist anymore. CIGraphix (talk) 21:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps the "Olympic Themed" one could be something regarding "Mini-game Themed". That would fit both the M+S games and Shuffle. Sergecross73 msg me 14:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the Storybook series needs it own tab, since it only contains two games and Sega aren't planning to continue it from what I've heard. A subtab for non-main-series platform games (Knuckles Chaotix, Tails Adventure, etc.) would be fine if you go through with this minitab thing.

Is there some sort of wikipedia policy that says there needs to be more than 2 items for this sort of things? If not, that's not a reason not to do it...Sergecross73 msg me 18:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I've done a little merging of tabs to reflect this statement. For example, the Storybook games are now part of a Platformers tab with the other platform games, whilst Puzzle and Pinball are now in the Other section. Wonchop (talk) 13:25, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank all of you. I like the current way of tabbing (by genres). Good work. Explorer09 (talk) 17:17, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Sonic Blast versions classification

So I've noticed, Sonic Blast is classified differently between platforms. On handhelds, (labeled as "Blast" ) it's considered the "main series", while on consoles, it's considered a "spin-off" (labeled as "3D"). Is this right? I know they're different games, but I still think they should fall in either one or the other. Sergecross73 msg me 20:43, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not commenting on whether it is right or wrong to do so, but I assume the reasoning was that Sonic Blast plays in classic 2D right to left while Sonic 3D Blast plays as an isometric platformer with the camera above instead of to the side and prominently features a treasure hunt for Flickies in the core gameplay. CIGraphix (talk) 21:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Syberthrouth, 22 January 2011

Not Protect See Ya!

Syberthrouth (talk) 20:30, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Autobotprowl, 27 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} I do not think that "Shadow the Hedgehog" should be included on this list as part of the main series of Sonic games. It does not follow the other characters or the main stories; it is and was always intended to be a spin-off. Does anyone agree with me?

Autobotprowl (talk) 03:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. →♠Gƒoley↔Four♣← 07:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this, it seems silly that a game that doesn't involve playing as Sonic, would be part of a Sonic "main series". It seems like as much of a spin-off as Knuckles Chaotix. (Sonic characters w/o Sonic playable, gameplay mechanics not seen in other Sonic games, etc.) I'll wait to see more responses though before I make any changes...Sergecross73 msg me 20:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Shadow belongs in a classification like Knuckles Chaotix - both have gameplay that takes the classic Sonic model and changes it (Knuckles has team gameplay, Shadow has guns, vehicles), both don't have Sonic as the star (he is only really a cameo), both have stories that branch off the main Sonic stories. Like I said in another section, it seems arbitrary to classify them differently. CIGraphix (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Unofficial games

This template is already huge. Do we really need to list some of these "related games", especially the ones that are unofficial hacks? I'd like to remove them. It's already crowded with just "real" Sonic games. Thoughts? Sergecross73 msg me 13:21, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Mario and Sonic series games are sports games

The Mario and Sonic series games are obviously sports games, and yet they have been put in the Party category. I would suggest putting them in a new "Sport" category, and then moving Sonic Shuffle to the "Other" category. Besides, Sonic Shuffle and the Mario and Sonic series aren't even one series. Thanks. Androids101 (talk) 01:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but they're still both essentially mini-game collections. We don't need to over-categorize...Sergecross73 msg me 10:37, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tails Game Gear Games

Pretty sure if Shadow has been demoted to spin-off, so should these. Neither have even vaguely traditional Sonic gameplay, nor does Sonic appear in them at all. Rivals is already in the spin-offs section so I don't think adding a couple more handheld ones would be that big a deal. 109.157.167.104 (talk) 13:33, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Sergecross73 msg me 16:20, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 5 November 2011

Shadow the hedgehog (the video game) was released in 2005. This is not a spin off game, this game was part of the main console series. Shadow the hedgehog (video game) was relesed after "Sonic Heroes". Shadow the hedgehog explained the the story behind shadow, and even have some refrences to sonic heroes in it. this game was the next game in the main series. Even in Sonic the hedgehog "2006", the shadow story line is a continual story to shadow the hedgehog. the story line in sonic the hedgehog 2006 leads us to beleive that Shadow joined up with G.U.N ( Guardian Unit of Nations) after he leaves the past behind him. in Shadow's story line in Sonic the hedgehog 2006, it even explains of parts of shadow the hedgehog. my request is to remove shadow the hedgehog from a spin off series, and put it back to its rightful place in the main series. the gap between sonic heroes and sonic the hedgehog 2006 is about 3 years. its obvious shadow the hedgehog was made to fill the gap between them. it use to be places in the main series until someone edited it. 71.158.65.246 (talk) 03:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. --Jnorton7558 (alt) (talk) 13:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

None of those things make it a "main series game". Whether or not it covers superficial story elements, the fact of the matter is, you can't play as Sonic, and it has non-conventional gameplay (for instance, gunplay). This makes it much more of a spinoff. Sergecross73 msg me 14:31, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit please

• Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) -> Sonic the Hedgehog (2006 video game)
• Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic the Hedgehog (1991 video game)
• Triple Trouble -> Sonic the Hedgehog: Triple Trouble
  • Not Done - Did you try the actual links on the template? The ones on the actual template link to the actual articles, and dont' need fixing. If you're commenting on the fact that the whole title's were written out, that was done on purpose, to cut down on redundancy, since there are so many titles on the template. Sergecross73 msg me 14:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 21 November 2011

In your list of Sonic Games, in the racing spin-off category, you forgot Sonic Drift Racing.

124.191.97.66 (talk) 12:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Click on the link to Sonic Drift on the template. At the moment, it seems that Sonic Drift 1 and Sonic Drift 2 (Also known as "Sonic Drift Racing" share the same article.) As such, it doesn't make sense to have a link going to the same page twice. However, I'm not sure I agree with having them share the same article. Perhaps I'll try to work on them both having one, if I get around to it... Sergecross73 msg me 13:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Shadow GameSh

Shadow the Hedgehog(2005) should be in the Main Series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 14:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

No, it's more like a spinoff. You can't play as Sonic, it's got non-conventional elements (Gun gameplay, alternate endings, etc.) It's no more "main series" than Knuckles Chaotix or the Tails Game Gear gamees... Sergecross73 msg me 14:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes you can play as Sonic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

In an extremely limited manner as a multiplayer character? Sergecross73 msg me 15:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Compilations

There are an endless list of Sonic compilations in existence. Rather than listing them all out, I think we should just list to the "List of Sonic Compilations" article (technically already linked, in the word "Compilation") to the "related articles", and then remove all of the links that go directly to compilations. So basically, one link to the article that lists them all, instead the 5 or so that are there now. To make it a little less cluttered, there are so many titles on there as it is...Thoughts? Sergecross73 msg me 19:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 April 2012

Shouldn't the game.com version of Sonic Jam be listed among the handheld Sonic platformers? It'd chronologically go between Sonic Blast and Sonic Pocket Adventure.

174.5.213.39 (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• No, that version of Sonic Jam doesn't have it's own article, so it doesn't need to be on the list... Sergecross73 msg me 02:38, 16 April 2012 (UTC)