Template talk:Trust organisations in Ireland
Inclusion criteria / scope[edit]
It looks like we need to review / check the scope of this template. If it is, as any regular reader would reasonably assume, for civic / national trust types of organisation, then I cannot see how the following fit:
- the defunct Royal Irish Institution - this was an arts institution (and could share a template with the likes of the National Gallery of Ireland, the Royal Hibernian Academy, and many excellent galleries and arts groups around the country / island)
- the Dictionary of Irish Architects - this is not even an organisation, it is a project of the Irish Architectural Archive, itself originally a project of other bodies, and does not perform Trust duties at all
And the following are not themselves civic / national trusts but could be said to support their work, so perhaps a separate, 4th, group for these, would be more logical:
- the Heritage Council (Ireland) - a policy and funding body
- the Irish Architectural Archive - a great institution, but in no way functioning as a trust, and not holding properties in that way (the Dictionary of Irish Architects could be a bracketed item beside this)
Meantime, An Taisce is the National Trust for Ireland, formed for one country and always carefully leaving Northern Ireland to the National Trust and other relevant bodies; it incidentally has one property which crosses the border but that does not make it, in its own eyes, or those of anyone else I know, an all-island body. We do not do Wikipedia any favours by deciding for ourselves that it's remit is now all-island, surely?
Let's discuss... SeoR (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
@Financefactz, @Guliolopez, @Ww2censor - as Template Talk can be a bit of a dead zone, I hope you don't mind if I invite directly to this, and of course I do hope others find their way here too. There are not so many of us working in this sector of articles, and the more the merrier, especially as there are redlinks here which could spawn nice articles too. SeoR (talk) 12:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi. While I don't have especially strong opinions here (and am just responding to the ping), I would agree that those entries which are not operated as a trust (whether as a national trust, otherwise under trust law, or via a board of trustees) should probably be considered. Or possible be removed. And, in particular, where the linked article doesn't mention any of these concepts, I'm not sure why we'd group them as if they do. As noted, the inclusion of the DIA (a database and not a trust) and the Heritage Council (a statutory body which isn't a trust) is kinda confusing to me (and I like to imagine I have a half a handle on these things).... Guliolopez (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
The Dictionary of Irish Architects is a trust, set up and run by the National Trust Archive (now the Irish Architectural Archive). It has a board of directors (trustees) although this is not relevant to whether something could be deemed to be a trust. The majority of the items it holds in trust are however architectural drawings and photographs, illustrations and books rather than buildings. I would say unless you are sure of something and have properly researched it then do not research-as-you-go and then find out later down the line that the facts are different to those presented.Financefactz (talk) 09:27, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi. First, we try to keep things courteous here, and WP:AGF, and your tone, not for the first time, is bordering on confrontational. I am very familiar with both the IAA and the Dictionary, have used both almost from their starts, and have attended at least one governance meeting. The Dictionary is a database, and a fine one. It holds nothing itself, and is not an independent trust - it is part of, and copyright held by, the Architectural Archive (which does hold all the items you mention). If you believe otherwise re. the Dictionary, then please cite this in the relevant article. Now, the IAA does have a charitable trust formation. Nonetheless, it is not a national trust / civic trust type of body - and has never claimed to be so. It is an archive. I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that civic trusts holding land and buildings are quite different from archives / dictionaries, and I'd fully support a template which pulled all conservation matters together. While I would put the RII, for example, in an arts-related template. My concern with this case is simply that the template is labelled in a way which will confuse readers, whom we are here to serve. So far, the consensus suggests we might make some tweaks, but let's have more views first. SeoR (talk) 10:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- If you have a conflict with An Taisce or the Irish Architectural Archive (and you have stated in writing that you have both) then you really should not be editing the respective pages and certainly should not be inputting promotional material. The Dictionary contains items held in trust for the benefit of others, that is to say a National Trust. Whether or not it is separately incorporated doesn't seem entirely relevant, it has already been deemed notable enough by some other third party to be made into a Wikipedia page, which has in turn been reviewed and edited by others. It meets the definition of a trust - "(a trustee) holds property as its nominal owner for the good of one or more beneficiaries". The most common item a trustee holds are shares, legal documents or property. It could be deemed to be part of the Irish Architectural Archive and also could be deemed to be in itself a separate undertaking ran by the archive. It is not connected with the National Archives of Ireland which is a separate body. Financefactz (talk) 12:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have removed the page the Heritage Council (Ireland) which may make more sense to include in a category on Irish heritage bodies as has been suggested, however to the best of my knowledge no such category has been created yet or is in draft or in Sandbox. Financefactz (talk) 12:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- If you have a conflict with An Taisce or the Irish Architectural Archive (and you have stated in writing that you have both) then you really should not be editing the respective pages and certainly should not be inputting promotional material. The Dictionary contains items held in trust for the benefit of others, that is to say a National Trust. Whether or not it is separately incorporated doesn't seem entirely relevant, it has already been deemed notable enough by some other third party to be made into a Wikipedia page, which has in turn been reviewed and edited by others. It meets the definition of a trust - "(a trustee) holds property as its nominal owner for the good of one or more beneficiaries". The most common item a trustee holds are shares, legal documents or property. It could be deemed to be part of the Irish Architectural Archive and also could be deemed to be in itself a separate undertaking ran by the archive. It is not connected with the National Archives of Ireland which is a separate body. Financefactz (talk) 12:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- Great re. Heritage Council. I'm happy to work on a category.
- On the point re. CoI, I do not believe it applies - I was a member of An Taisce >20 years ago, one of 10s of thousands who have been members over 75-77 years, and >300k who have participated in its events and activities... As for the IAA, I have used its services, attended a meeting as a member of the public, and consulted the Dictionary; I think you may have done some of the same, as we seem to share some interest in heritage properties, and may even have crossed paths - but this most definitely does not constitute CoI. I am careful, as you can see, in my edits, strictly basing them on sources, and I do actually think twice where I have had any connection to a topic. SeoR (talk) 12:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- To keep this neutral, I'm happy not to edit this template anytime soon, leaving the final call on title (I'd suggest "National and civic trust organisations..." for clarity), and contents (the RII, etc.) to others. I've raised the questions, flagged my view, and that's enough. SeoR (talk) 12:34, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Possible associated template[edit]
I think part of the solution to well-handling such articles can be a well-defined "conservation in Ireland" template. I am no fan of piles of templates, or articles with more than 2, but I think that could help. SeoR (talk) 16:40, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Conservation is usually concerned with nature and the environment while preservation is usually used with buildings and objects. Is this going to be both or either of these? Obviously a national trust is a very specific category where there is little ambiguity. For the purposes of categorisation this is often a good thing as it can leave little room for debate or having to then later fight over the definition of the category itself. If there was a category with conservation and preservation I would imagine we could get to one hundred pages where possibly 20 of them people would disagree on. Financefactz (talk) 12:20, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! That (conservation / preservation) we could discuss. The thing is, I don't think we really disagree about any fundamentals on the question of national (and/or civic) trusts - I think it is just the few marginal points. If a broader template can be defined, I'd be delighted. SeoR (talk) 12:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
I would regard this as being a trust because of the way it operates, its corporate structure, its funding and even its name used to be the "National Trust Archive". The Dictionary of Irish Architects is ran by the archive so could be viewed as its own separate project or as a subset I suppose, I wouldn't begrudge anyone changing it either way really.Financefactz (talk) 09:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)