User talk:71.35.161.45/Archive-2008-04-15

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Archives[edit]

Mike Flicker[edit]

15 April 2008[edit]

Hi zz,

Hi pdfpdf,

I am not so much upset as frustrated. Sorry, I will try to be more clear.

I'm afraid you didn't succeed; I'm very confused by some of your reply.
Also, I left you a number of questions - you answered very few of them.

I don't know if you took a look at the pictures and the video clip.

I did.

My point is this; the young Michael Fisher photo (circa 1967), the Michael Fisher video clip (1978) and the adult photo of Mike Flicker (present day) are all the same man.

Yes, you've said that a number of times.
I'm not sure why you're mentioning it yet again. (i.e. I'm confused.)

My only point about the Whiteheart picture was to try to pin down the date of the photo and to show you that I am familiar with the city and the circumstances that shaped Heart during their early days.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning this.

Also, you have not commented on the interview with Nancy Wilson.

I presume you're referring to this one: http://www.believermag.com/issues/200708/?read=interview_wilson ?
I don't have any comments. It says what you said it does.

Michael Fisher moved to Los Angeles to get into the music business. As for why he did it at age 16, you would need to ask him.

Thread 1:
Born 1952, so that would be 1968?
Actually, the Flicker web site suggests/implies the Zoo was formed before then, so lets say 1967?
So 1952-66 in Seattle, 1967-70 in LA, 1971-77 in Vancouver?
Thread 2:
It just doesn't seem likely that a 15/16 year-old in High School, playing in a band with his brother, would move to LA. What would the school leaving age have been in 1967? Various writings suggest/imply that the Fishers were a close family - at age 15/16, would he want to leave a close family? Moving from Seattle to LA at age 15/16 is a big step. What would his parents have had to say? Etc. etc. No, none of that is definitive, nor does it rule it out, but as I said, it just doesn't seem likely.
Also, why would he change his name from Fisher to Flicker at age 15/16?
Also, the Nancy Wilson interview says:
Michael didn’t enlist when his number came up, so the Army broke in to his house late at night to get him—which was illegal, as we found out later. Luckily, he jumped out the window and ran before they could get him. He hitchhiked his way up to Vancouver and settled there.
The implication is that at age 18 he was Mike Fisher and living in Seattle.
Alternatives are:
  • Nancy's little annecdote is a fabrication.
  • The incident happened to Flicker in LA. However, how did the US Army know that Fisher, the draft evader from Seattle, was living in LA? And hitching from LA to Vancouver, when the US Army are looking for you, would be quite a feat.
Thread 3:
What years were The Army and White Heart active?
However, what you say below DOES support the idea, so I guess it could have happened. But I would like to see some independent supporting evidence which explains what Fisher was doing from 1967-70.

Personally, I think it was his ambition. It may be hard for some to believe, with all the attention paid to the rock music scene in Seattle during the 90's, but in the 60's and 70's and even the 80's the local music scene was VERY PRIMITIVE compared to other big west coast cities like LA and San Francisco. The music scene in Vancouver BC was even more pathetic than Seattle, that is, at least until the early 70's. Anyone with real talent and ambition had to leave Seattle to have a chance of making it big. The list of those who left town is huge!

The move to Vancouver BC happened at a different time and for a different reason. MF was evading the draft.

Yes. Previously acknowledged and agreed.

It just so happened that he was of draft age in 1971, and that the Canadian music business was booming at the same time due to the change in content rules. Tremendous luck! Did I confuse you about this?

No.

To me it sounds as if you keep confusing the move to LA with the move to Vancouver.

Does it. I'm not confused about that. I'm not sure why you came to that conclusion.

I was hoping you would fix the problem of the confusing footnote because the phrase "moving to LA at age 16 to escape the draft" is just so ridiculous that I laughed out loud. I hope you didn't intend that to be taken seriously! No one would ever have moved INSIDE the U.S. to escape the draft BEFORE THEY WERE OF DRAFT AGE!

Agreed. I think I put there what I thought you were saying. It didn't make any sense to me, but a 15-year-old moving to LA doesn't make any sense to me either. (If I get time, I'll change it.)

You support the band's claims that MF was in Seattle in the early 70's

a) No I don't. b) Why do you say that? (i.e. I'm confused.)

even though we also know he was actually evading the draft in Vancouver BC. Why do you believe those claims?

I haven't seen any such claims; I don't know what you're referring to.

The fact that Nancy Wilson claims he sneeked back across the border is the only believable bit of evidence that he spent ANY time in Seattle during those years at all. Yes, I think this point is ABSOLUTELY relevant!

Which point is absolutely relevant to what? (You've lost me.)

It proves my point that many of the bands claims just are not credible.

As I said, I haven't seen any such claims, so I can't comment.

The band members have participated in an elaborate ruse to hide Mike Flicker's real identity for years! I think Ann in particular is either very confused sometimes, or deliberately trying to obfuscate the facts. In one video clip currently on Youtube she even claims the group is from Canada!! Very strange, particularly since the audience she was performing for was in Pullman, Washington on her side of the border. Why would she tell an audience from her own state that she not American, but Canadian??? Bizarre!!! Maybe it was just the drugs.

I have no idea.
I think I'll quote you on this one: "As for why she did it, you would need to ask her."

[1] Anyway, it is a great performance, be sure to check it out!!! Also, note at the end of the clip Mike Fisher is credited as the band's road manager. This is part of a one hour live concert produced by KWSU television in 1976.

Yes, within a fixed set of titles, they seem to be pretty random about which title they use for Mike Fisher at any given time!

I think that MF is a man of many many talents. Not only is he a good musician, but a skilled recording engineer, producer and businessman.

So it would seem. (And a prolific producer of children too - I think he has 10 at last count.)

I don't doubt for a minute that he has both skills on guitar, drums, and perhaps other instruments too.

Don't know. As I've said many times, I've not seen any evidence of him playing music. (More on that below.)

I really don't understand why you seem to keep worrying about which instruments he plays.

Because, As I've said many times, I've not seen any evidence of him playing music.

The information from the band about his guitar playing is just hearsay anyway.

I haven't seen any evidence of that, either.

I can provide more evidence of Fisher playing drums on Flicker recordings.

Well, you said if I looked on imdb, I'd find lots of examples.
I looked on imdb. I didn't find ANY examples of Fisher playing drums on a Flicker recording.

But the only reason I bothered to is because you kept demanding it. I already provided 2 examples of Michael Fisher playing drums. Did you look at it yet?

That's a strangely worded response. If I "kept demanding it" it was because you said there was lots of evidence on imdb, I didn't find any, and you hadn't supplied any.

MF saw the huge potential in the Canadian music business at a time when few others did. He found top quality used studio gear in LA for very little money and moved it to Vancouver. He build a very successful recording studio which had a sound that closely rivaled the best in LA, but at much lower hourly rates. At that time the Canadian dollar was worth much less than the U.S. dollar, which made recording in Canada an even better value for American musicians. Recordings made in Canada get preferential treatment on Canadian radio and television. MF knew that he could create hits in Canada and then try to duplicate the same success across the border, though this did not work every time. MF persuaded investors to back his recording studio and record company ventures in the music business. That alone is a huge achievement. Not only that, but he made some really good records that turned into hits! He had ambition even from a very young age. He certainly would not let a little thing like the draft get in his way. I think that his type of talent is very rare.

BTW, I don't have the Behind the Music episode. I would like to get a copy also. zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 00:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Questions you haven't answered yet

Re: Email:

How about sending another - call it "email test" and then post a message here saying you sent it?
I'll keep an eye open for it, and will respond here when I receive it.
OK?

Re: Fisher playing drums in The Army and/or White Heart

I've not seen any evidence of this, yet.
Other stuff
And who's who in The Army picture and the Heart '73 picture? (I've had a guess; I'd like your confirmation. I would never have picked the lady as Ann!)

I think that if you look at her facial features the lady in the 1973 picture looks A LOT like Ann, just with different hair.

Oh yes, knowing it was Ann, it's easy to see the resemblance.
What I was trying to say is, if someone randomly handed me the picture and asked, "Who's the lady", I would never have picked the lady as Ann.
New question
Is there any evidence of what Mike Fisher was doing 1967-71, or does he just disappear off the face of the earth?
Why did he change his name in LA?
Why is there still a Mike Flicker in LA, as well as a Mike Fisher with 10 kids? i.e. Why does MF continue to support two identities some 30 years after the amnesty?

Cheer, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

14 April 2008[edit]

Hi zz,

I'm not sure what I wrote that upset you, but its intention was to convey my confusion, not to upset you. I'm sorry it upset you.

So, how do you feel about doing a stocktake, and re-starting from there? (I have copied what was here to User talk:71.35.161.45/Archive-2008-04-14)

There are a number of threads to this conversation, so I've tried to re-organise/re-arrange them all together. Feel free to rearrange as you fancy

failed email[edit]

Hello pdfpdf,
I tried to send you an e-mail a few weeks ago, but I never got any confirmation that you received it.

Oh. That's annoying. Either, I never got it, or I didn't notice that I got it.
How about sending another - call it "email test" and then post a message here saying you sent it?
I'll keep an eye open for it, and will respond here when I receive it.
OK? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Fisher: Drummer or Guitarist[edit]

There IS evidence that Michael Fisher (brother of Roger) played drums in "The Army" and "Whiteheart." I have seen early promotional pictures of the group from this era on Heart related fan sites. Sorry, I don't have the web addresses now, will try to find them again.

Yes please. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Fisher and Mike Flicker working on the same projects[edit]

Also, as I have previously stated there is also a lot of evidence that a drummer/percussionist named Michael Fisher also worked with producer Mike Flicker on many rock recordings and film soundtracks during the 1970's and early 1980's. This is in addition to production credits for both Mike Flicker and Michael Fisher on all Heart recordings from 1976 to 1978, a total of 4 albums.

I haven't seen any evidence of Fisher working as a drummer. Anywhere.
Hence, nor have I seen any evidence that a drummer/percussionist named Michael Fisher also worked with producer Mike Flicker on many rock recordings and film soundtracks during the 1970's and early 1980's.
Can you supply any of this evidence? The answer seems to be yes. I will listen to it before responding further. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an interview with Nancy Wilson where she talks about MF's draft evasion. Interesting how after talking about Fisher, she later starts talking about Flicker as if he just appears out of nowhere: http://www.believermag.com/issues/200708/?read=interview_wilson

Some of the many Mike Flicker productions that also credit Michael Fisher on percussion:

More later, zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 21:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes please. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rare 1978 Heart backstage video from "The Midnight Special." This might be your only chance to see vintage video of Michael Fisher. http://youtube.com/watch?v=35WOxH8eQu0 zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 23:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. Thanks. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an early picture of "Whiteheart" [Is this http://phoenixheart.org/heart/whiteheart.JPG the picture you're refering to?] with the Fisher brothers on the left, before the either of the Wilson sisters joined the group. The 4 young men in the photo are Roger Fisher, Michael Fisher, (unknown), and Steve Fossen.

Cool. Thanks. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And who's who in The Army picture and the Heart '73 picture? (I've had a guess; I'd like your confirmation. I would never have picked the lady as Ann!) Pdfpdf (talk) 17:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is the link to the Whiteheart picture I was referring to. About the 1973 picture, actually, I think that if you look at her facial features the lady in the 1973 picture looks A LOT like Ann, just with different hair. It was part of her "hippy style" at the time to have long straight hair and go "natural" (no make up.) Roger has identified some of these other members in other Heart photos from the same era. If you really want to do the research, I am sure they can be identified also. zz

(For my future reference: Early Heart, Roger)

Compare the young Michael Fisher (2nd from left) to the recent picture of Mike Flicker on his website and tell me that you don't see a remarkable similarity especially in the eyes and the nose! I DARE YA TO TAKE A LOOK! http://phoenixheart.org/hchives.html (Click on the Whiteheart link to the 2nd picture in the frame on the upper left.)

Oh come on. I've told you several time I want this to be true; you don't need to take that attitude. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting side note about the Whiteheart picture. The shirts in the picture look very psychedelic, very much in style for 1967. The picture advertises an appearance at the Lynnwood Roller Rink on April 1. Lynnwood is just north of Seattle, only a few miles from my home. I did some research and determined that April 1, 1966 was a Friday night and April 1, 1967 would have been a Saturday night. Those were the only nights of the week that teenagers would have been likely to be out until 12:00 midnight. zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 00:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make ... Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you have further confused the Mike Flicker article by changing the footnote. The move to Los Angeles at 16 was several years before the move to Vancouver at 18. As I have attempted to make clear on numerous occasions, Vietnam draft evaders left the US for Canada! The draft age was 18! Moving to L.A. to avoid the draft at 16 makes absolutely no sense at all! Please fix this.zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 05:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make.
a) Why would Mike Fisher move to LA at age 16?
b) Please fix what? see my comments above for answers to these 2 questions. zz
Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Old news[edit]

Mike Fisher played guitar for Heart's predecessors "The Army" and "Whiteheart", and relinquished the role of musician when Nancy Wilson (guitarist) joined the group.

Where did you find such specific information?

Excellent question. Unfortunately, I can't re-locate the source!! (Sorry.) Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no HARD evidence (pictures) for this.

I couldn't say, but currently I'm unable to make any further comment. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
there is no evidence that he is or was a percussionist.
Let's change that statement to, "I haven't been able to find any evidence that he is or was a percussionist".
However, the info you've supplied above may counter that. I will respond further when I've looked at it. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If that is the case, then why did Heart go through so many different drummers ...

I don't know. You tell me.

Why were there 3 drummers on the first album?

Are there?

Why are there so many examples of drummers named Michael Fisher playing on Mike Flicker's productions?

Well, I haven't found any examples. Would you like to point me at these so many examples? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is evidence that Flicker was in LA 1967-1970. There is no evidence that Fisher was in LA 1967-1970, and there is no reason why he would have been there at that time. Conversely, there is some evidence that he was in Seattle 1967-1970.

What exactly do you mean by "some evidence?" I have never seen or heard anything other than anecdotes about this, and anecdotes are not facts.

Ir's past midnight; I'll answer this one later Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nancy Wilson has said that Michael Fisher did sneak back across the U.S./Canada border after becoming a draft deserter. Just because he was in Seattle for a while does not mean he spent all his time there.

Relevance? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Fisher went to LA to get into the music business, just like thousands of other young musicians.

At age 16? When he was already playing in a band wih his brother and Steve Fossen? And going to High School in Seattle?
Why?
(i.e. So far, I'm unconvinced.) Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

more old news[edit]

If Fisher was born in 1952, then he was 16 in 1968, and 18 in 1970.
There is evidence he moved to Vancouver in 1974.
What evidence is there that he moved anywhere before 1974?
Why would he have moved to LA before 1968?
Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

-Most of the recordings that Mike Flicker worked on during the 70's and early 80's also credit Mike or Michael Fisher. A quick look at imdb.com shows a lot of these coincidences in music for films.

I had a long look at imdb.com - I only found one entry with both names. Please supply pointers to the recordings that Mike Flicker worked on that also credit Mike or Michael Fisher. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are also the same credits on all the early Heart albums as well as rock and pop albums that Flicker recorded for other artists.

There are? I haven't found any. Please supply pointers. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

-Both Michael Fisher and Mike Flicker have worked as professional drummers and sound engineers or record producers.

I haven't found any evidence that Fisher has ever worked as a drummer. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The engineering and producing professions are so closely related that it is often hard to tell the difference between the two. Both men have had essentially the same career path since the very beginning.

The evidence I have does not support that statement .... 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

-Both Roger Fisher and Mike are seen in early promo pictures of their group "The Army", which later turned into Heart. The young Michael Fisher bears a striking resemblance to the adult Mike Flicker.

I haven't seen ANY pictures of Fisher, anywhere, so I can't comment. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

-In interviews Nancy Wilson mentions details of Mike Fisher's draft evasion. Then she suddenly says Mike Flicker just appeared on the scene as a successful musician and record producer who wants to make the group famous. The interviews of which I speak can easily be found online.

I haven't been able to find them. Please supply pointers. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where did Mr. Flicker get his experience in the music business?

In LA. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check it out for yourself and I am sure you will find more.

I have checked it out; I can't find any supporting evidence.
In fact, all I can find is counter-evidence. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Related WP pages[edit]

Fisher and Flicker were NOT living in different cities at the same time. Michael Fisher was already in Vancouver since 1971. Flicker had previously been in LA, but moved to Vancouver in 1971. They had both just become eligible for the draft ...

The period-in-question is 1968-1971, when Flicker was in LA and Fisher was in Seattle ... Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have NEVER seen a primary source that credits Michael Fisher as a guitarist.

And I can't find any evidence that Fisher ever played drums.
In fact, it's rather difficult to find any information about Fisher. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fisher would not have been living in Seattle from 1970 to 1974 if he was evading the draft.

Yes, but what about being in LA 1968-70? Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The most complete source of information is probably the "Behind the Music" documentary about Heart that was broadcast on the VH1 music channel about 10 years ago. Have you seen that?

No. It had been removed from Youtube before I got to see it. Do you have access to a copy? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fisher was Ann's "boyfriend" from 1970-79. She was living in Seattle 1970-1974. However, Flicker was living in LA 1970-1971. That doesn't seem to be consistent. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Has the band ever produced any conclusive evidence that MF was living in Seattle from 1970-1974?

Dunno, but why would he be living in LA at the tender age of 16 when he was going to high school and in his brother's band? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Mike Fisher - verified/verifiable facts[edit]

OK. So, what do we know and can verify?

  • From the 1976 Canadian 12" vinyl release of Dreamboat Annie:
    • Mike Fisher is not mentioned as a band member of Heart
    • Major credits are: "Ann Wilson, Nancy Wilson, with Steve Fossen, Roger Fisher, Produced by Mike Flicker"
    • There are no song-writing credits or "musician credits" for Mike Fisher
    • However, there is one mention, on the record sleeve: "Special Direction: Mike Fisher"
    • (Mike Flicker credits include: Magic Man, percussion; Dreamboat Annie (Reprise), Tympani; Album Produced by Mike Flicker; Arrangements by Heart and Mike Flicker; Engineering, Mike Flicker and Rolf Hennemann)

Pdfpdf (talk) 09:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What do we think we know[edit]

Fisher:

  • Fisher born 1952 - Source?
  • Fisher member of The Army 1963 (aged 11?) - Source?

Flicker:

Pdfpdf (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Things to resolve[edit]

  • When was Fisher born?
  • Is Mike Fisher older or younger than Roger Fisher? (Roger born 14 Feb 1950)
  • When did Fisher join The Army?
  • What were/are Fisher's musical skills? i.e. What evidence is there that he is/was a drummer?
  • When did Fisher leave Seattle?
  • Did Fisher move to L.A.? When? Why?
  • When did Fisher move to BC? Why?
  • Was Fisher ever a member of Heart?
  • What did Fisher do after 1979?
  • Where does Fisher live now?
  • When was Flicker born? How long was it between when he was 16 and 1967 (when "Chocolate Mousse" was released)
  • What did Flicker do between birth and 1967?
  • Where does Flicker live now?

Pdfpdf (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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