User talk:Aurel1510

November 2021

Hello, I'm Nardog. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Slovak phonology, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Nardog (talk) 12:09, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Pavlik (2004) says that those are alveolo-palatal affricates. I changed the IPA to ⟨tɕ dʑ⟩ so that the symbols match Polish and Serbo-Croatian. Also, even if the fricative part is weaker in Slovak, ⟨tɕ dʑ⟩ are still pretty spot-on as they capture the fact that they are coronal, not dorsal (the latter could sound too much like /k ɡ/, and that is problematic). Sol505000 (talk) 12:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I am more than just fairly sure that the ť and ď sounds are dorsal, they are Palatal Plosives, sometimes, of course, influenced by their positions in words and sentences during the speech, they can change, but very little. I can speak Polish and I know that the Alveolo-Palatal Affricate ć is a common sound of the language, but there is no such a sound in the Slovak language. I will try to find a good source, but I am not too positive about that, since our national language institute is barely responsive and the literature is fairly old and incomprehensive. I might need to publish my own book on the subject otherwise. But if you are okay with the information being quite a bit off, then it should not concern me, since besides a linguistics geek like me and maybe some foreign learners, nobody else is going to visit the site. Have a nice day. Aurel1510 (talk) 19:45, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Please stop the edit warring. The source you cited clearly says that the sounds are not purely palatal, but "strongly palatalized [t d]" that are affricated. This is the only realization he describes, as far as I can see. It doesn't matter that Pavlik uses the symbols ⟨c ɟ⟩ as he specifies that the cardinal values of those IPA symbols are not the same as the Slovak sounds usually transcribed as such. The fact that they are grouped together with {{IPA /j/}} in the table doesn't mean that they are purely palatal. Their phonetic realization is described on page 99. Sol505000 (talk) 09:28, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

It does matter - we should do what RS do when it comes to IPA transcription, bearing in mind that our IPA transcriptions are intended to be broad. And the "so that the symbols match Polish and BCS" rationale is bogus. Slovak is not Polish. The same rationale was used to change /ʃ ʒ tʃ dʒ/ to /ʂ ʐ tʂ dʐ/ which is even dodgier, IMO (see my comments on the help page talk). – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:36, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! I am sure I did make some mess and fuss along the way, as it was my first edit yesterday, and it got swiftly reverted for a lack of source at first, but at least I have learned something from my mistakes. All is well that ends well. Also, thanks again for the support! Aurel1510 (talk) 10:34, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

No, the author states that citing: "Ďalšia dvojica slovenských explozív – [ť] a [ď] – je v IPA vydeliteľná priesečníkom palatálnosti a explozívnosti. Príslušné IPA znaky reprezentujúce tieto parametre sú [c] a [ɟ]." The OUTLINED CHARACTERISTICS are palatalness and plosiveness! Aurel1510 (talk) 09:33, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I am well aware that you cannot cut your tongue off and have a purely palatal sound or that even t or d cannot be purely plosive sounds, it is the HEIGHT OF FOLLY to think that anything is absolute, BUT! As I said before, the IDEAL and STANDARD CHARACTERISTICS of the sounds are generally believed to be PALATALNESS and PLOSIVENESS, therefore based on the source and the author's own decision as well as my own experience of almost 30 years speaking the STANDARD LANGUAGE NATIVELY, I completely agree with the AUTHOR CHOOSING THE IPA SOUNDS FOR PALATAL PLOSIVES. That is all from me. And I will not stop the edit. Aurel1510 (talk) 09:37, 29 November 2021 (UTC)