User talk:Esteb7777

Hello, Esteb7777, and Welcome to Wikipedia! Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or or by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC) Getting started Introduction The five pillars of Wikipedia How to edit a page Intuitive guide to Wikipedia Finding your way around Table of contents Department directory Editing articles How to develop an article Manual of Style Getting help Frequently asked questions Cheatsheet Where to ask a question Help pages New contributors' help page Article Wizard - a Wizard to help you create articles How you can help Contributing to Wikipedia Community Portal Follow Wikipedia etiquette Practice civility

November 2010

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Wikipedia, but at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to ZE Records, did not appear to be constructive and has been automatically reverted by ClueBot NG.

• Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Note that human editors do monitor recent changes to Wikipedia articles, and administrators have the ability to block users from editing if they repeatedly engage in vandalism.
• ClueBot NG produces very few false positives, but it does happen. If you believe the change you made should not have been detected as unconstructive, please report it here, remove this warning from your talk page, and then make the edit again.
• The following is the log entry regarding this warning: ZE Records was changed by Esteb7777 (u) (t) ANN scored at 0.810661 on 2010-11-18T18:28:38+00:00 . Thank you. ClueBot NG (talk) 18:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

ZE Records

As a fan of ZE Records since the early 1980s, I personally welcome your involvement here. However, Wikipedia cannot accept your edits to the article - firstly because they are not formatted or referenced in the style required, but secondly because, as the co-founder of the label, you have a clear conflict of interest with the material in the article. If you wish to discuss the article on the talk page here, for instance to point out errors or to draw our attention to independently published material about the record company, please do so. I hope you will read the pages in the welcome message above, and contribute further in due course. Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

--Esteb7777 (talk) 15:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)I am sorry to see that the long work that we provided in order to make the page on ZE Records more complete was remplaced by another page with missing essential informations and full of errors.

I have trouble to understand this situation. To my point of view the aim of Wikipedia is to be encyclopedic, it seems to me that the people who wrote about a subject should know what there are talking about. As the co founder of the label I dont see where is the conflict of interest. Conflict of interest with who ?

I am not trying to make some publicity for my label, I am trying to give informatioms that a fan of ZE records or somebody interested of the history of this label could find interesting and true.

I personally think it is interesting to have the registred label logo published in the page I personally think it is interesting to have the complete discography of the label published on that page, cause that is one the most important information about a record label I personally think it is interesting to have the complete recording artists list of the label published on that page, cause that is one the most important information about a record label

All these informations have been delete from the page and remplaced by an incomplete list of recording artists and no discography !

Do you think these informations are NOT important ?

Lost of informations are missing in the actual page, but I guess you must be know better !

Also some informatioms are false ;

Exemple : Michael Zilkha IS NOT of Lebanese descent, but from Iraqe descent.

Lizzy Mercier was never my PARTNER.

I did not restarted the label in 2002 by in 2003...

and I did not only " reissue old material" but recorded and published new artists...

How the person who wrote the actual page about ZE records, know better what kind of music Michael and I were listening at that time ??? "The music which they were listening to was a mixture of the New Wave of Talking Heads and Television, together with the disco-funk music being played in the New York clubs"

Did she interview me ? where are the "sources" acrediting this "information" ?

All this to show you that if wickypedia want to be an "encyclopedic source", their contributors should, to my point of view try to collaborate together instead of sensoring the work of others...

As a "fan" of ZE records as you claim to be, I beleive that you wanted to have a maximum of true informations of this label instead that an incomplete page with errors !

I ready to talk about all these matters with you and modify the parts of the page we did which did not applied to the philosophy and rules of wikipedia ! --Esteb7777 (talk) 15:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Ps ; Also you deleted all of our References and replace it by a page with NO references you deleted all our External links and replace it by a page with one dead link

Cher M Esteban, Soyez le bienvenu! But, I'm afraid my French does not extend much beyond that... I apologise if my instinctive reaction to revert your changes seemed harsh, but it is in line with Wikipedia policy. I was responsible for starting the Wikipedia article on ZE Records some time ago, and I would be very happy to work together with you on improving it. Unfortunately I won't be able to do any work on it for a few days, but I should be able to spend some time on it next week. You say that Wikipedia aims to be encyclopedic. That is true. However, it has a number of rules that must be followed - which, I hope, is where I may be able to help you. One of the rules is that it does not allow "original research" - it only summarises information that has already been published elsewhere - explained here. This is the policy on verifiability - here. Regarding the logo - there may be copyright issues - I am no expert on those, but there are other editors who will be able to help, and we should be able to sort that out. Regarding the false information in the article - that would have been based on published sources, but if they are wrong, again, we should be able to sort that out. Regarding the discography you provided - I would very much like to see that included here, and we can look into that further. Has that information already been published, either online or in a book or magazine? My advice - as someone who has edited articles on Wikipedia for several years and has some experience in these matters - is that, if we work together, we can create an excellent and fitting article on ZE Records that is both comprehensive and accurate. I hope you agree. Best regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I have now reinstated the list of artists and the discography, and incorporated some of your text into the article - as a holding measure. Next week I shall look for some more external sources, so as to improve the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

PS: You will need to address the copyright and licensing issues raised at [[File:Logo ZE.jpg]] if the image is not to be deleted. I suggest that you explain the position on the image file talk page here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Moving on.... Could you take a look at the article I have started here? Your comments would, of course, be very welcome. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:59, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Here are under my comments on the last update of the ZE Records page.

On a more general picture I had the impression before reading some of the Wikipedia principles, that a popular source of information who claim to be « encyclopedic » was based on true facts. I am an old school guy who still uses encyclopedia and dictionary to find info. One of the Wiki principle is apparently that to be « true » an info as to been published somewhere. I don’t think all the incorrect info that I pointed out on the ZE records page so far were published anywhere, it was no note source anyway… Some of the actual errors that I can find on various Wiki pages, on subjects I have the arrogance to think that I am an « expert » or at least a reliable source, could have been made by lazy journalists (this category exists, I met some of them) and then reproduce by another source and then you have in various sources a false info. Is it the number of a printed false info that makes a true info? Here are few common examples: « Michael Zilkha with a Lebanese background. » I know before the Bush’s « Operation Iraqi Freedom », (or invasion of Iraq in France) most American could not make to much difference between Iraq and Lebanon… On Lizzy Mercier Descloux; « She grew up in Lyon, but returned to Paris in her teens to attend art school. With her partner, Michel Esteban, she helped establish the store Harry Cover » Lizzy was not raise in Lyon, but in Paris, she was never my partner, and did not help me establish Harry Cover. I established Harry Cover in 1973 and met her in July 1974 … On Lio : « Lio is a Belgian singer and actress, born as Wanda Ribeiro de Vasconcelos » Lio is not Belgian but Portuguese, her real and complete name is Wanda Maria Ribeiro Furtado Tavares de Vasconcelos. I am sure lost of people will think all this negligible, but I don’t and I don’t think Wiki should neither! Maybe I am wrong? That is to my point of view quite dangerous, cause today most « journalists » use Wiki as source for info. And when I read on the french page of Wiki that there is only 766 Quality articles and 1139 good articles on more than 1 million articles… I Wonder on the term « encyclopedic » … This said I am ready to help to improve and correct factual errors of theses pages! We already spend a LOT of time doing this and sometime I wonder if all this energy is well employed, I hope so!

Update Page Ze Records (en)

Your writting Michel Esteban (b. 1951) studied art in Paris and at the School of Visual Arts in New York, before returning to Paris in 1975 and opening the shop Harry Cover (a pun on "haricots verts"), which specialised in current rock music merchandise from the US and UK. The basement shop quickly became the rehearsal place for Parisian new wave bands. Between 1975 and 1976, Esteban published Rock News, which covered the birth of the punk rock movement in London, New York and Paris. In 1977 he published Patti Smith's books Witt and The Night, and Lizzy Mercier Descloux's first book Desiderata.[1] My updated proposal Michel Esteban (b. 1951) studied art in Paris at School of Arts Graphiques in 1968 and at the School of Visual Arts in New York in 1974, before returning to Paris in 1975 and opening the shop Harry Cover (a pun on "Haricot Vert"), which specialised in current rock music merchandise from the US and UK. The basement shop quickly became the rehearsal place for Parisian new wave bands. Between 1975 and 1976, Esteban published Rock News, which covered the birth of the punk rock movement in London, New York and Paris. In 1977 he published Patti Smith's books Witt and The Night, and Lizzy Mercier Descloux's first book Desiderata.[1]

Your writting Zilkha and Esteban then left to set up their own label, ZE Records, a name taken from the initials of their surnames, to record the new music emerging in New York and elsewhere from a fusion of punk, disco and new wave music. The genre later became known generically as No Wave – the title of one of the company’s first compilation albums*. Within a short time, ZE Records became one of the more hip labels of its time, signing up such new talent as James White and the Blacks, Was (Not Was), Kid Creole and the Coconuts, Lydia Lunch, Lizzy Mercier Descloux, Cristina, Bill Laswell’s Material, together with more established performers including John Cale and Suicide. Many of its releases were first played at the Paradise Garage club in New York, starting point of Garage music. • This is not correct to write that the music that we produced became a genre called No Wave. The so called No wave could only describe some of the music that we produced (Lydia Lunch, Rosa Yemen, Lizzy Mercier Descloux‘s first album, james Chance, Teenage Jesus & the Jerks, Arto Lindsay…) A good part of our productions can be also be described as Mutant Disco (check the track list of the 4 Volumes of the Mutant Disco serie), another part could be New wave or Pop ( the Waitresses, Cristina, Casino Music, Suicide Romeo, Davitt sigerson…) and John Cale, Alan Vega Suicide cannot be described in these categories… • And « N.Y NO WAVE » , was not one of our first compilation, but a compilation that I put together and released in 2003… • • I dont see why your deleted the name of the Art Shool I went in Paris ? I also think it is important to indicate in what years I studied in theses schools.

My updated proposal This collaboration at four lasted several months, then Zilkha and Esteban, decided to start their own label and left to create ZE records. After the late 70’ new wave and punk explosion, a new bunch wannabe musicians often writers, painters, movie-makers, drifters met and created a deviant musical scene that rejuected the traditional way of music business and ZE provided a crazy cocoon and lab for this urban tribe to explore, search & destroy. A year later Chris «Tycoon » Blackwell joined in and throught a licence deal with his major indie label Island records gave ZE a worldwide exposure.

ZE during a few years developed an independent and surrealist entity with a very particular esthetic line, a chaotic but coherent universe, refuge of all the Arty New York underground scene and the strong individualities which composed it. For some people at that time, ZE was simply « the best independant records label in the world » dixit John Pell in « Melody Maker » 1980. In « THE FACE », Robert Elms wrote in the Mars 1981 issue : «The most sane part of advice that this Young scribe edge offer at present is this - IF IT’S ONE ZE BUY IT » and in the same magazine in January 82, Paul Tickell called the label : « ZE Records the world¹s most fashionable label in the world.» The rest is history...

In a couple of years the best albums of Suicide, Kid Creole and the Coconuts, Lydia Lunch, Alan Vega, James White/Chance, Cristina, Lizzy Mercier Descloux , Was (Not Was), to only name the most famoust, were recorded on ZE at the hinge of the 70/80’s and influenced until today a great number of bands.

I think this is more complete, it explain that the New York music scene at that time was a mixture of artists not only from music background. It also speaks about of the influence of the label, witch I dont think is exaggerated. I dont think it is also exaggerated to say that some of the artists mentioned released theirs best albums on ZE.

Your writting The label’s success peaked around 1981-82. Esteban returned to Franc in 1982, and ZE Records closed down in 1984. Esteban restarted the label in 2003 in France to record new artists as well as to reissue old material. He lives today in Salvador de Bahia, Brazil.[1] Meanwhile, the Zilkha family moved into the energy business, and Michael Zilkha is currently co-owner of a major renewable energy company based in Texas.

I did no return to France ( with a - e - at the end…) in 1982, I left New York. I spent the following years travelling and recording all over the globe, from Africa, to Brasil or Japan. I also think it is interesting on a enclyclopedic point of view to say what the founders of the label did after their departure or the closing of the label. Specially if one still continue to produce music, including Hits and gold records….

It is not correct also to write that « the Zilkha family moved to energy business ». Michael join his father who was ALREADY in the oil business when Michael closed down ZE in the States.

My updated proposal In 1982 Esteban left New York and ZE records for others solo adventures. From1984 to 1989, he produced the French group new wave « Octobe »,the South-African album of Lizzy Mercier Descloux including, against all odds, the hit « Mais où Sont Passées Les Gazelles », and its following in Brazil « One For The Soul » with Chet Baker. Then two albums with Lio : « Pop Model » and « Cancan », including two gold singles with « Les Brunes Comptent Pas Pour Des Prunes » and « Fallait Pas Commencer » and a Gold album with « Pop Model »...

Michael Zilkha stopped ZE Records in 1984, after a few years in the oil business, he is running today Renewable Energy. It sits at the office of monitoring of Chinquapin School, The Menil Collection, The Contemporary Arts Museum and The Alley Theatre, all domiciled in Houston, Texas, where he actually lives…

In 2003, Esteban relaunched ZE records which to date has remasterised and released more than forty albums produced since 1978. He lives today in Salvador de Bahia, Brazil.

--Esteb7777 (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Merçi beaucoup! One of the problems is that there are different policies on Wikipedia, and sometimes they conflict with each other. I mentioned the policy on verifiability, meaning that we should draw on published sources. But, there is also a policy that we should not copy or paraphrase too closely those sources, because of the risk of copyright violation. So, what editors like myself try to do is to convey the same information as in the published sources, but using different words. Sometimes that means that important points are either left out, or a mistaken interpretation is put on the published words. But, I am sure that I will not find any problem in taking your suggestions (above) on board in rewriting the articles, which I will try and do over the next few days. I'm very grateful for your involvement and I'm sure we will get it right. I have two questions - one in relation to your comments, and one other. Firstly, you say that Lizzy Mercier Descloux was not your partner, but in interviews (like this one) you say she was your girlfriend. Is there a difference? (I don't wish to pry, but I merely want to make sure we use the right words.) Secondly - and more importantly for me - is the live version of Kid Creole's "There But For The Grace Of God Go I" (WIP 6707) ever going to be released on CD or digital? (Or have I missed it?) I loved that record ever since it came out - it featured on many cassettes I made for friends, but I can't play them, or the original vinyl single, now! Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:44, 22 November 2010 (UTC) (PS - if you are interested, my musical tastes are here.)

I am a little beat confuse I must say with Wiki policies apparently in conflicts with each other’s! My point of view is that these policies should promote the research of true information not the opposite. The more I understand the rules of Wiki I believe it should be called a « popular source of info » opposite to an encyclopedic source of info!

When rules are supposed to be the source of errors they should be changed or improved. When I read « Sometimes that means that important points are either left out, or a mistaken interpretation is put on the published words » I am perplex about the soundness of these rules… Anyway, you have all the info you want from an original source, it is up to you to update and improve this page now. Regarding to your question about Lizzy Mercier Descloux. My English is far to be perfect but I believe there is a difference between « Girl Friend » and « Partner »… In France we make that difference. Don’t have to define girl friend, I hope, but for us partner means business partner. Yes I said she was my girl friend, that was before the ZE period: 74 to 77 to be exact, but this is my private life. I also call her sometime my « Partner in crime » which means in French and I believe also in English « a good friends who get in trouble together or get each other in trouble and laugh about it ». And she was my best friend until she died.

The kid Creole Single that you refer can be found on digital download here. http://www.zerecords.com/2010/album_main.php?id=364 There is a bug on the track list price page (price is 0), but it works if you click on BUY and the price is correct on the shopping card page.

--Esteb7777 (talk) 20:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm very grateful. I've now downloaded the Kid Creole track, and will explore your excellent site further! Re Wikipedia - of course, you will know that all editors are volunteers, and that the whole essence of the site is that anyone can change anything - within some limits. So, there are inevitably bound to be errors, but the more people who are involved in providing information and editing the site, the better and more accurate it will get. With your help, we have already improved the ZE Records page greatly, we now have a new page on Michel Esteban (which, incidentally, will be mentioned on the main page at some point in the next week or so this afternoon (25 November)) and one on Marie et les Garçons, I've expanded the page on Lio, and I will work at improving some of the other ZE-related pages. Re "partner"/"girlfriend", in the UK the term "partner" is often used to mean the same thing as "boy/girlfriend", so it is simply a language issue - I'm happy to use "girlfriend" if you prefer (where it's relevant). Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)