User talk:Filll/Archive 1

Welcome!

Hello, Filll, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Akradecki 16:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The history of the song "Frère Jacques"

I also am intersted to know how Frère Jacques is related to Way of St. James. I tried to use some of the online translation tools to translate the Polish articles to English, but poltran is offline at the moment and other tools appear to require a download.--Filll October 7, 2006.

Don't waste your time using translation tools. (Does "poltran" mean "translation tool for Polish"?!) Contact Blahedo (Blahedo's website) who has much information about it from me. Fringo from the Polish Wikipedia. Fringo 18:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

To translate from/into Polish you can use http://eduseek.interklasa.pl/artykuly/artykul/ida/3601 but ... you must know the nominative (noun) and the infinitive (verb). Polish declinations and conjugations are more complicated than in Latin! Fringo 23:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You can French, so read necessarily http://www.webdonline.com/fr/services/forums/message.asp?id=298382&msgid=4831545&poster=0&ok=0 .
I tried to find out ( http://www.dominicains.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=50 ) and ( http://www.dominicains.fr/article.php3?id_article=764 ), when was the monastery in Paris founded, but there wasn't any information there.
Could you contact the Dominicans in Paris and ask them about it? Could you ask their opinion about this ? Fringo 23:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Read: Talk:Frère Jacques (The history of the song - and Origins) and Talk:Translations of Frère Jacques (Russian Translation). I've just re-corrected this translation. Fringo 23:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Kozma Prutkov

Even though it is not my article :)), I have responded at its talk page. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Saint Pierre and Miquelon

Very impressive work on the St Pierre and Miquelon article. - Miquelon

See Jean Alphonse now. Better? remember to categorize. Any more info? references?Ernst Stavro Blofeld 19:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I found the information in a subsequent article on Langlade Island. I assumed that the information was more recent than the census data, given the date of death listed. I have absolutely no factual basis other than wikipedia with which to back up this information; I was only striving for continuity in two related pages. In fact, when I read that page it was the first time I had ever even heard of Langlade Island. Cheers! -Andrew

So, I'm a little confused. How many inhabitants does Langlade Island have? If M. Lefitte is deceased, and there was only one resident of the island, how can the population remain at one? Is this some kind of mind game? Has a new hermit replaced him? What's going on here? -Andrew

Gigging

Hello - that should read DIGGING. I have fixed it. Sorry for any confusion caused. Rosser

Concept of race nonsense?

I didn't want to bring this up on the talk page because there's enough off-topic nonsense, but what makes you think the concept of race is nonsense? Any time ancestral populations become geographically isolated they divided into different races or breeds, if they stay isolated long enough they become different species. It all amounts to where most of your ancestors were living several thousand years ago. By today's standards, people on different continents were quite isolated. If most were living in Europe, North Africa, and West/Southern Asia you're a white. If most were living in sub-Saharan Africa, you're a black. If most were living in the Pacific Islands and and South East Asia, you're a brown. If most were living in North East Asia, you're a yellow. And if most were living in the America's you're a red. Modern DNA studies give pretty much the same picture, and forensic experts can guess your race quite accurately from a hair, a skull, or a drop of blood. Denying race is unscientific! Gottoupload 23:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for messing around but the concept of human race is strongly debated and genetics is not conclussive. Even the parallel biological concept of subspecies is hotly contested. There are no clear lines in most cases. That applies specially for the Human species where variety seems to be much more at the individual level than at the groupal ("racial") one.

I suggest you to go the White people article and defend your position that West Asians and North Africans are white. Just for the experience.

I also suggest you to re-study Eurasian genetics to see if your idea of "brown" can stand that test. Australians and Papuans don't seem to have significative relation with South Asians, while Polinesians and Melanesians are more directly connected with East Asians, notably Malays and Taiwanese Aborigins (what is ratified by archaeology).

Furthermore, based in genetics, you could not speak of a black race, because Africa is the more diverse region of the World (in human genetic biodiversity) and all Eurasian (and American and Austronesian) peoples are ultimately just a sub-branch of African diversity.

Overall the question is clusters (races) or clines (not races): but both are just different views of the same map. --Sugaar 22:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Your Apology

No need to apologize, it's ok. Also, something you may not know about, but on a talk page there is usually a "+" next to the "edit this page" which you can use to introduce a new section. Then your comment doesn't come up as looking like it pertains to the last section of the page.  :)

Just some helpful reminders, we all need learn sometime :) --Puellanivis 15:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thermae Bath Spa

In the article on Thermae Bath Spa, is it really true that "It is the only natural thermal spa in the United Kingdom" ? I have posted on the discussion page for Thermae Bath Spa. I didnt change the text of the article because there might be something that I am missing or I do not understand.--Filll 14:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The claim is made here, though in view of the article you found it appears that it's not totally accurate. I have removed the sentence. --MichaelMaggs 14:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Frere Jacques

I don't use msn, nor any other communicator, nor chat. Just e-mail me. NoychoH 19:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

A table alphebetical

Thanks for the expansion of Table Alphabeticall! Have you seen copies of the various editions? – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 14:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

sandbox

To avoid stubby articles getting tagged for speedy, write your articles in user:Filll/sandbox until they have reached a viable size.

And what does Edmund Weaver was clothed in 1607 mean? Was he naked before that? -- RHaworth 16:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Filll/Thomas Wight

I have moved your article to the above location for you to expand, source and reference the factual material. The article will be speedily deleted now; you can repost it when it has been expanded and made encyclopedic. (aeropagitica) 22:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

a barnstar for you

		The Original Barnstar
		I've noticed your continued efforts to improve the article Saint-Pierre et Miquelon, and in recognition, I hereby award you this barnstar. --Kyoko 01:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Forbidden City

Hey, I took a look at your re-organisation at Forbidden City, and I think you have improved a lot in terms of structural clarity and succinctness of expression. I'd like to make a couple of minor changes, though, which I will do in the next few days, including moving some bits. Take a look when it happens. I've been wanting to add more information about the buildings inside the Forbidden City - ideally, I'd like the description to follow the structural scheme of the three north-south axes of West, Centre, and East. Anyway, that won't happen for a while because it would need a more comprehensive and structured description of the buildings. Good work! --Sumple (Talk) 06:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

dab

A disambig page does not have to have (disambiguation) in its title. We only create such a page when one usage is far more widely used than the others. Eg. Croydon and Croydon (disambiguation). No one St. Anne's Well is more famous than the others so we create the article on that title. -- RHaworth 18:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Are you saying that I am a troll just because I am a "15 year old Jewish child in South Africa"? That's racist. But whatever, you're mind is cut-off from different opinion, so what's the use to try and argue with such an irrational person. Have an interesting life insulting people. Hopefully I don't see you in the afterlife. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 18:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not a Jew. I have Jewish heritage. I believe in the whole Bible just like normal Christians. Do not insult Jews. You aren't helping by making personal conversations with me. You know nothing. Grow up for all I care. Bye. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 07:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Help with evolution page

We seem to be getting a lot of vandalism there --Filll 03:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The vandal has been blocked. WP:VAND#Dealing_with_vandalism explains what to do with vandalism.--Commander Keane 03:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

NPA

With regards to your comments on Talk:Black People: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Please note that even if the other editor instigates personal attacks, you should not resort to using them yourself. --Strothra 19:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the support

Hi, Filll,

Can I call you that? It's sort of a cryptic handle, but, I should talk.

Thank you for your support. You are the one thing that is keeping me from going on a rant.

I can understand somebody wanting to keep bad content out of the article on Blacks, but I can't understand how somebody who is afraid of the misuse of such an article could want to subvert attempts to get rid of the obviously problematical parts. Having struggled for a long time (with indifferent results) to get the Race article away from the shoals of scientific racism, I'm pretty well up on the issues. I think there are many assertions in the article that are not only uncited but also just plain wrong. It looks like any changes I make will get reverted, however.

Let's work on making it a better article. Actually I'm surprised I said that because I think an RFD is in order. I don't think it would end up in the article being removed, however. So the only other choice would be to ignore the article knowing that it would do some damage. Anyway, it's much too late for me to think much less think straight.

Best,

P0M 10:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

talk:Evolution

I wanted to thank you for your contributions and your apparently infinite patience. However, I do feel that the discussion is counter-productive at this point, and any useful suggestions you might make will get lost in the noise. I am going to archive that section very soon in the hopes that we can return to our more constructive efforts. There are some useful (small, but useful) things we can do to improve the article, but debating Creationists isn't really one of them. I don't mean to be harsh, I'm just a little frustrated, and I think other editors are too, even more so. Please be assured that this is not directed at you, but at a situation that comes up too many times every week. Feel free to drop me a note if you have any questions, comments, or concerns. In the meantime, thanks again for your efforts :) Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 04:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I replied further on my talkpage. Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 07:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions at the new talkpage! The way you put together the body of the FAQ was excellent. Just keep in mind that digressions will be quickly archived; but at least they're preserved (and can be reposted elsewhere) for future entertainment edification : ) --Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 05:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you considered enabling your email? We have many similar interests, but I wouldn't want to clog talkpages with personal notes. Just a thought...Doc Tropics ^{Message in a bottle} 06:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Assistance needed

Hey Filll - Samsara is becoming painfully aggressive over at the Talk:Evolution#sprotection page and your assistance would be appreciated. I don't want to make a big deal out of this; maybe your input would help. standonbible^Talk! 07:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Forks

Hi,

I saw your message. I haven't looked at whatever you have started yet, but from past experience I am sure that the article you have created will be regarded as a "fork" and treated accordingly. I'm not sure where the rule is stated, but when something gets tagged as a fork it appears to be virtually automatic grounds for deletion. Not that I want to see a better article deleted, but that is what happens. Ed Poor, among others, had had severe conflicts over this kind of thing.

Best,

P0M 23:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it is ironic that people who have been attacked on the basis of [race] would support the idea.

I should explain that my father was a rare bird, a Roosevelt Democrat in a solidly Republican state, and a Roman Catholic who married a Presbyterian. I think he learned something about prejudice when he had to deal with a farm town community that disowned both him and my mother.

My mother was in some ways an even rarer bird, primarily because of being the daughter of a woman who had grown up in Kentucky just after the Civil War in the household of slave keepers. Even a decade after the Civil War it seems that little had changed except that great grandfather appears to have been out of the picture. My great grandmother must have been some kind of psychopath or something. I learned from my grandmother, just something that slipped out naturally in a moment when she didn't have her defenses up, that her mother and some other white woman living on the plantation in Kentucky had gotten into a struggle over one of Grandma's little brothers. One of them grabbed the boy under the armpits and one of them grabbed him under the knees. They struggled over him and pulled his spinal cord apart. He was crippled for life. My grandmother was basically raised by one of the former slaves, a loving woman with whom my grandmother kept up contact with until the black lady died of old age. My mother accompanied Grandma home to Kentucky and witnessed the closeness of their relationship. For all the faults my mother had, she in her whole life never described another human being to me the way she described her grandmother, words that started with: "She was a real hellion..." Anyway, both my grandmother and my mother knew something about black people that my father's side of the family was ignorant of. That's not to say that my grandmother was a New Age type. Quite the contrary. She was both Presbyterian and Southern. I once asked her what would happen if I decided I "wanted to marry a Negro." She calmly explained that the two groups were different so they didn't intermarry. I am not sure that she could have articulated the matter any more thoroughly. She was not a theoretician. She just about always did the right thing. I suspect she was taking account of all the cultural differences that can make life difficult. Did she suspect that is is the unspoken, unobserved, sub-conscious level decisions on the "right" way to conduct certain matters that are not genetic but are established in patterns (in fact, conventions) that are learned at an unconscious level because that is what everybody in a coherent community has learned (in the same way) to conduct matters? I don't know. Anyway, that was the extent of any kind of barriers put up in her mind to black people. Different perhaps, but beloved. My mother seemed to have absorbed this attitude from the cradle. I was surprised, much later in my life, how easily my mother accommodated to my black friends (even though my mother was severely dysfunctional in the general area of interpersonal relationships due to lifelong but undiagnosed clinical depression).

So for all my life up to the time I went to college I was not only not given any racist role models but even carefully given preventative instruction by my father in the entire area.

Imagine my surprise then, when in my third year while I was living with a group of a dozen or so students off campus, one of my Jewish friends suddenly came out with a very racist attack on Negroes (actually I don't think he used such a refined term). My immediate riposte was to attack him on the grounds of his being Jewish, reasoning that if he didn't already know how it felt to be attacked for your extended family connections he should experience the pain before inflicting it on anybody else, even in absentia. He was shocked, so I explained why I had attacked him in the way I did. (We're still friends 40 years later, thank goodness.)

Despite the fact that my father was consciously and scrupulously anti-racist, his elder sister was the worst bigot I've ever had to deal with. All I have been able to figure out is that while my father earned his L.L.D., served a term or two as District Attorney, worked for Roosevelt and Truman at a multi-state and a single-state level, and generally was respected in our little community because he stood up for what was right, my aunt had nothing more than a B.A. degree, a marriage to an insurance salesman, and no real reason to feel proud of herself. Of all of the people I have mentioned, she was the only one who had no real contact with black people.

Living now in North Carolina for more than 16 years I have had a few run-ins (or set-tos as Grandma would say) with bullies. (I am 5' 10" and still skinny even after reaching retirement age.) I'm most thankful for my good martial arts teachers. ("Don't be arrogant. Don't be servile," was a lesson drilled into us by our school.) I don't get pushed around by these Aryan Lords of the Universe. But in all of this time I have never once taken flak from a black person. (I had a delightful experience with some Mexicans in a laundromat. The 18 year old among them tried to trip me as I walked past, and I've never gotten so many innocent laughs out of any other experience in my life. This was the same laundromat in which a piece of white riffraff had tried to push me around a few months earlier, so perhaps I was known by reputation. I speak no Spanish and the Mexicans spoke no English, so our whole transaction after I slipped the trip was conducted in pantomime. Long story, all good. Thank goodness I didn't act off of ego. Maybe the kid had been puzzled enough about why I hadn't been phased by the riffraff man to try me out. Who knows, but it was fun and funny.)

So what is going on with black people who want to support the idea of race? I totally don't get it. It's the same crock of shit as my bloody aunt thinking she was better than Julian Bond.

Which reminds me that as the years went by I learned to restrict myself to only one prayer for her future: That she would attain instantaneous enlightenment. P0M 02:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

regarding Logging in and wikipedia policy

Wikipedia states: "Logging in is not required for viewing pages, and not even for editing them. However, it provides additional features, and in general projects recommend it."[1] 136.183.146.158 03:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from your vulgarity

Please refrain from your vulgarity. 136.183.146.158 03:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth

Fill, You are putting words in my mouth. I said refrain from your vulgarity. I did not call you vulgar. 136.183.146.158 03:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Borks

A while back, while I was spending lots of time editing the race article and the race and intelligence article I ran into someone who was adamantly opposed to anything that give comfort to racism. Unfortunately, he could not make a rationale argument and was instead making many mistakes of logic. So he was defeating himself. Nothing I could say to him would make any difference. At one point he got on my User talk and insisted I deal with his sequence of (to me) irrelevant articles. and at the same time he once more thwarted my attempts to get him to do the least thing that would get his point across. I agreed with his emotional reaction to racism and to the racist account that says that black are intellectually inferior to whites. But in the beginning he called me a Nazi, a neo-Nazi, and a racist.

Sometimes even patience does not work. That individual bugged others a great deal and was eventually banned.

Sometimes I may write things in a discussion that are intended to accept everything that can be accepted in the standpoint of the other people.

One of the biggest problems with the idea of [race] is the way people can change definitions. I complained over and over again on the discussion page for race that any word like "race" that is used to formulate a supposedly scientific discourse must have an operational definition. But it was no use. I was too far out of my field to contend with graduate students. (The article does seem to have been improved since that time. Sometimes if you can just force logical clarity in statements (so they can't easily be given different interpretations by different people), then the problems gradually resolve. P0M 03:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right

Differenc between my edit and User:Editingoprah's edit,[2] so what exactly was your point? Alun 03:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Editingoprah did remove the information about "race" not being a biological phenomenon. Whereas some scientists claim it is, other's claim it is not. I notice she put in a link to the article about the genetics of "race", I have no problem with it. Personally I would prefer to include this statement about "race" because I think it is properly reflects the WP:NPOV policy, but I'm happy to compromise with a link to the article that covers this. Most importantly Editingoprah seemed to accept the major reworking of the section about Black people being the first AMH, without there being the "riot" you predicted. Alun 17:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and while I'm bugging you, you may want to read Pharisees especially the section about Jesus and the pharisees. JoshuaZ 03:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I know. However, I have a little quirk of pointing out the historical oddity of that meaning when people use it. JoshuaZ 04:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ken

Regarding [3] I know the user can be annoying but it isn't clear to me what that sort of thing accomplishes. Trying to calmly reason with him has I imagine a higher chance of success. JoshuaZ 03:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

black people

You spend way too much time stirring up controversy on the talk page, trying to pit different editors against each other. All you ever do is fan the flames of controversy. Editingoprah 02:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Filll, you've got my respect for saying anything at all on that talk page. Hope everyone can keep rational on there. Conflicts of interest are notoriously hard to deal with. I just had a look at white people. Interesting comparison. I propose the following law: the length of a Wikipedia article about a group of people is proportional to the extent to which that group of people feel that their views are being neglected. I could cite examples, but that'll only get us further into trouble :) - Samsara (talk • contribs) 03:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Filll,

I don't know what to say. Do you ever talk to DeeCeeVoice? She is tough as nails, and she can be abrasive, but I think she is rational. I don't know how she would react to things going on in this article.

I spent five years in a predominantly black area of Philadelphia, I taught for two years in the public schools there, and I did several years of karate training in a school that had more blacks than whites, so I learned the local black culture pretty well. Almost forgot to mention: I lived as a roomer in the house of a black minister and his wife and kept friendly contact with his wife until she died of old age about ten years ago. As a result I interpret things differently. I had a class once that had 5 black basketball players. They sat together in the back row and tended to be a bit boisterous. I always wondered what the class members thought about one of them. In the two or three minutes before class began he would start fencing with me. It was a verbal analog to "slap boxing," something else that I learned to do in Philadelphia, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. My only regret in retrospect was that perhaps I should have cautioned him not to try that stuff on any of the other white teachers. But, anyway, the actual feelings that were being conveyed were anything but antagonistic.

I started to write something to the black people who believe in race. What I least get is the need to be a part of a [race]. I'd many times rather disown my own [race]. Anyway, I started to think about what it must be like to be a member of a tiny group that gets no automatic respect, and I was trying to think of the smallest group. Of those whom I have met, one of my karate buddies was from Sarawak. He was a thoroughly nice person, but a bit reserved. I had no sense that he was in any way lacking in self confidence because he didn't belong to a "power group." But perhaps his group is not the best one to make a "test case" out of. Ainu might work, except that they are white and somebody might try to make something out of that. Shan are black, same difference.

Koreans might be a good example. Too bad about the current situation with North Korea, but they are some of the toughest people I have ever been around. I don't think that, as a group, they would be inclined to feel "inadequate" just because they have a small population (and they probably don't regard themselves as a sub-set of any other group.

What I want to ask is, "What would happen to a person who grew up thinking he was a member of the largest [racial] group in the world, learned to regard everybody of other races as far inferior to members of his group, and then learned that he was actually not of that [race] at all. My idea is that if the person is eu-functional it will not have any effect on how he judges himself.

My experience with the old Race article edit wars was consistent with what I learned by participating in a long-lasting NPR forum on the Clinton impeachment trial. I found that I could get through without major trauma if I just took my ego out of gear and did not rise to the attempts of others to make anybody who wrote anything out to be wrong. Sometimes I felt like revealing that I thought some guy was an idiot who proved it by his inability either to read or to reason. But I just kept coming back with evidence and analysis, and those guys had to shut up. I frequently did not address them but addressed the people whom I hoped were reading the interchanges and might be influenced by them.

Are you at all interested in quantum mechanics? I often wish that I had stuck with my original choice of major and had become a physicist. What are some of your other interests? if you find the venom of the Black people article too much maybe I could convince myself to sacrifice and send you a nice tarantula. She just molted and is now about 1.5 inches long, fangs to spinnerettes. Or, I have an immature black widow in a bottle on my desk. I'm pretty sure that as long as I never squeezed her she would not bite even if she got loose and ran over my hand. Wild beasts are so much safe than people. ;-)

Best wishes, P0M 03:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

What problem

I don't understand what problem you are refering to. If some editors choose to make unfounded accusations regarding "personal attacks" and/or "vandalism" they will soom get themselves a ban. It is fortunate that I am quite tollerant, I know many people who would have reported these frivolous "warns". If some editors find it hard to accept that other people can edit "their article" then they are either in the wrong place, or they need to go and read wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I understand wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and I will not be intimidated by you or anyone else. I have made several good faith edits to this article, and they have remained. The important thing is that you predicted a "riot". What we have is a few bad faith contributors whining. Hardly a riot. Yes it's true, you exagerated, and threatened me and tried to intimidate me. You did not succeed. I have put up with a great deal more than this in my time on wikipedia, this is just a little bit of hot air. This is vandalism. [4] This is a personal attack. Can you see the difference? Alun 13:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Filll. I apologise for my confrontational attitude towards you. Maybe I misunderstood your position. When you warned me twice in the same day on the Black people talk page I thought you were threatening me. I accept that this was not your intent. Well I can admit when I am wrong, and I can appologise as well. We got off to a bad start. Let's try again shall we? I am sorry. I did not take a confrontational attitude to Editingoprah because she did not take one with me. Now I see that you were not intending to be confrontational and I misunderstood your position. All the best. Alun 14:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)