User talk:Grioghair

Armenia

Please elaborate on Pakistan's non-recognition of Armenia at Talk:List of sovereign states. We will continue the discussion there.

Withholding recognition / withdrawing diplomatic relations does not amount to a "sovereignty dispute." A sovereignty dispute arises when one country regards a territory to be the sovereign territory of a government other than the one in control. If we went by this broad definition, the countries in that column would be endless. Would we but US non-recognition of Cuba, Iran, or North Korea in those columns too?--Jiang (talk) 20:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The definition of this column was already discussed on the talk page of this article (see Sovereignty dispute column) and Armenia falls under this criteria. In the sources for Armenias comment you can clearly find that a Pakistan minister did not recognize Armenia as a country. This is clearly an "sovereignty dispute". I never have heard of US disputing the sovereignty of Cuba, Iran or North korea. Not having diplomatic relations is not the same as not recognizing sovereignty. Grioghair (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The broader definition was also an result of the problem arising with Israel and Pakistan (see the talk page). People wanted to keep the "Sovereignty dispute" comments for these countries, but they did not fall exactly under the old definition. Grioghair (talk) 21:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Where does it say Pakistan disputes the sovereignty of the Armenian government? Off the cuff equating lack of diplomatic relations, or refusal for formally recognize a particular government, as "not recognizing Armenia as a country" is not a dispute of sovereignty. A dispute of sovereignty would be saying "Armenia does not exist" or refusal to use the word "Armenia" in the way countries refuse to use the word "Israel". Our article on Armenia doesn't say anything relevant. I don't think the sources back up the assertion. Please respond at the relevant talk page if you would like to discuss this further.--Jiang (talk) 22:09, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"The Islamic Republic of Pakistan does not recognize Armenia even as a country for the sake of Azerbaijan,"[1] Grioghair (talk) 22:19, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Some_types_of_sources. I cannot find the same assertion in reliable sources, so it could very well be rhetoric for all I know.--Jiang (talk) 17:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I understand the need for reliable sources and the fact that an government source would not be neutral. Also, the words of one minister could be just rhetoric. But an Worldview Report by the Pakistani Senate is not just rhetoric. And, off course, such a report is not neutral, but I think it is very reliable in giving the opinion of the Pakistani senate. Too say that the pakistani senate cannot give a reliable statement of its own opinion is silly. A senate is not the same as the government, but combined with the other source, and the lack of any sources saying other branches of Pakistan stating otherwise, I would accept this as the opinion of the Pakistani government. Grioghair (talk) 18:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)