User talk:Kmacjdwiki
Kmacjdwiki, you are invited on a Wikipedia Adventure![edit]
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June 2019[edit]
Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit you made to Keven McDonald, did not appear constructive and has been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use the sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you.
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Keven McDonald. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.
- If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
- If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. SportsGuy789 (talk) 19:13, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Please do not make any further edits until participating further in the COI dialogue, so far better suited to be discussed at User talk:Juliancolton#Keven McDonald. Further re-inclusion of unconstructive edits may result in a block. Thank you. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion[edit]
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. Thank you. – Juliancolton | Talk 15:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Hello, it has come to my attention that you may have what is referred to as a conflict of interest with regards to this article. While it may be frustrating to see a Wikipedia article that is incomplete or even with errors, it is frowned upon for subjects to edit their own articles. That does not mean you can't help improve the article, it just means you need to work with other editors who can ensure impartiality. Here is the policy page on the issue: WP:COISELF. It may be more useful, however, to read this essay by another editor: Wikipedia:Notable person survival kit. Feel free to ask me any questions. I might be able to help you with that photo you wanted to submit. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 16:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Hello again! I have read your responses and I realize you are taking a few days away from Wikipedia but I thought I'd write this today so that it's here whenever you do come back. The reason for addressing you here instead of on the article talk page is two-fold: I wanted to explain something about infoboxes and secondly mention what I hope we will see going forward.
So, on your biography article, the {{Infobox basketball biography}} is used. Changing a template's structure (such as I think you attempted with this edit) is something that should never be done unilaterally by even the most experienced editors because it will affect every article which uses said template. There is a whole Wikipedia:Templates for discussion project dedicated to debating changes to templates and making decisions by committee with careful consideration of the ramifications of such changes. If you had successfully changed the structure of the template, it would have affected every single biography of a basketball player on Wikipedia. Next, you might ask, well why isn't there a parameter or field for law school or other post-graduate studies. The answer to this is, it is a basketball template. Law schools do not have competitive interscholastic basketball leagues the same way colleges and high schools do, so it doesn't fit in. Bill Walton for example has an MBA and two years of law school, but you won't find it in his infobox. And this is a good way to avoid getting buried in reading policy pages: Look for examples of similar situations. Look at biographies of other Seton Hall Prep and Penn players and see if your page is being treated the same way. If all the pages are using the same short form of the school or college name, well, it's probably not a mistake, it's probably in accordance with guidelines. This is quick way to learn for most aspects of an article, whether it's the order of sub-sections or how a typical lead paragraph is structured, just look for other examples.
Next, I hope all parties will stop rehashing past edits and debating their merits or lack thereof. We should focus on the current version of the article and whether it is correct. In the last 72 hours, the article (your article) changed the most it has in years. For example, I added an entire new section for high school. So far, it has passed SportsGuy789's initial inspection with only a comma added. My description of the NY/NJ Allstars vs rest of America is what I worry about the most because I had only one source and it wasn't too detailed.
Anyway, whenever you return, if you find anything at all incorrect or objectionable, please create a new section at Talk:Keven McDonald list them. Please not here and not my talk page, even though I know you prefer me as the intermediary. I may not be here as I have a long trip planned for pretty soon. If I am here, I will see it there because I have added the page to my watch list. Thanks and all the best, --SVTCobra (talk) 22:38, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Hello "Cobra",
I've read the article. My first response is Wow! Where on earth did you get the information on that high school All-Star game? That's amazing! Yeah, I outplayed Moses in that game. I scored 30 or 32 points and grabbed 11 rebounds if memory serves me correctly. I don't know if you're located in the States or if you're a basketball fan but some other names you might recognize who also played in that game are Bernard King, Mike Mitchell (now deceased but an eventual star of the San Antonio Spurs), Mark Iavaroni (played with the 1983 NBA champs Philadelphia '76ers), Brad Davis (younger brother of NBA star Mickey Davis. Brad also had a successful NBA career), George Johnson (starred at St. John's and the NBA) and a host others who had great college careers. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!!
With respect to the article itself, it's loaded with a lot of new information. Certainly nothing "incorrect or objectionable". It's great and I appreciate it but it was never my intention to rewrite the article. I'll take a closer look at the content and if there are any small changes I want to make or add some filler information to what's already there I'll put it all in the proper discussion venue FIRST!! I get that you can't be my sole source of guidance here but there are still some of your colleagues I do not wish to correspond with again. Ever. That said, I'll be more mindful of the things I've learned in the last few days.
Now, about that information box. I had no idea at the time that they're set up as specific, unchangeable templates. I thought I could go in there, change a few things, add a few things and that would be it. When initially my changes didn't seem to hold I kept trying to put them back thinking that the problem was on my end. I did this several times before the notices started flying in and I guess this is why some considered my actions hostile and rogue. Had one of your colleagues given me the professional explanation about the templates that you give above PRIOR to jumping to completely negative and erroneous conclusions most, if not all, of the misunderstandings of the last few days would have been completely avoided. But I know now. Thanks.
So, as I said, I'll give "SportsGuy" and the other non-"drive by" editors a few days to look at the newly written article before I consider any minor changes. In the meantime enjoy that vacation!
Kmacjdwiki (talk) 00:25, 20 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald
- I found it in The Pennsylvanian from 1974 where they had an article talking about the incoming freshmen basketball players. They said you had 30 points (one more than Malone who of course skipped college) and you had 12 rebounds. I also found a comment from Bob Weinhauer just this year where he said he went to the game to observe you as he'd already made 10-12 trips in his efforts to recruit you for Daly. He also said it was outdoors. But I have no information of the actual venue, but I am presuming a court in Manhattan, and no information on who organized it. It was a bit of a stretch when I said it was an annual event. Do you know if that is true?
- Yes, I am familiar with Bernard King, the other names not so much. I attended Villanova at the end of the Massimino era and I have been overjoyed at our golden era under coach Wright, so yes, I am definitely a NCAA basketball fan. I used be a fan of the NBA but soured on it years ago. Now I don't even watch the Finals and I'm only peripherally aware that Toronto won this year.
- By the way, I looked at the categories for your article (found at the very, very bottom) and removed South Orange as that seemed to be a remnant from before your birthplace was corrected, but then I also saw "American expatriate basketball players in Finland". The category was added in 2012 with a (now dead) link to a Finnish website. Is that where you actually played? Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 01:40, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Hello Cobra!
First, if you haven't left for vacation take a look at my talk page. I've read the updated article and have left my comments and suggestions on the talk page.
With respect to that all-star game, I don't believe it was around for long. I know there was at least one game the year before mine and Ernie Grunfeld was the MVP of that game I believe. And there was another one the year after mine because my teammate Tony Price played in it. After that Cobra I can't say. It was a great tournament but it never reached the status of the annual McDonald's game. Although I can't recall the exact venue coach Weinhauer wasn't quite right when he said it was outdoors. Wherever it was it was held indoors. The promoters would never have risked weather problems after flying players in from all over the country.
A Villanova man?!! Well, I promise not to hold it against you :) They've had some awesome years, not to mentions 2 championships recently. You say you were around in the last days of the Massimino years. Were you there in '85 when they won it? I imagine you were there when Pinone was there? I knew Rollie very well. He was an assistant at Penn the year before I got there, my freshman year at Penn was Rollie's first year at 'Nova. In those days The Big 5 was a family in spite of the intense rivalries.
Finally, like you I'm a college sports fan. After the Kaepernick situation I don't follow the NFL at all. I prefer college football anyway and my favorite sporting event is the NCAA Tournament.
Enjoy your vacation!
Kmacjdwiki (talk) 00:05, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald
Cobra!
Below is a copy of the new article that includes the suggestions and changes I describe on the talk page. I felt it would be easier to compare my version with the original new version if you could see the whole thing. I'll also put all the below on the talk page so your colleagues can review it.
Keven McDonald (born June 2, 1956) is an American former basketball player known for his collegiate career at the University of Pennsylvania from 1974 to 1978 with the Penn Quakers men's basketball team. He won the Robert V. Geasey Trophy as a junior and was named the Ivy League Player of the Year as a senior. Following his career at Penn, McDonald was selected in the 1978 NBA Draft by the Seattle SuperSonics as the 42nd overall pick. He went on to earn a law degree from Rutgers Law School–Newark and is now a licensed attorney and real estate investor in New Jersey.
High school career A native of Bloomfield, New Jersey, McDonald attended Seton Hall Prep[1] where he was a standout on the basketball team, noted for his mature inside game and soft jumper from the outside.[2] Sometimes dubbed "Mr. Everything",[2] McDonald would rack up 1,774 career points, a school record which would stand until 2008 when it was broken by Ashton Gibbs.[3] In a then-annual exhibition game (which pre-dated the McDonald's All-American Game), pitting all-stars from New York and New Jersey against the rest of the country, McDonald would outscore future-hall-of-famer Moses Malone.[2] By the time he graduated in 1974,[1] McDonald had received interest from hundreds of colleges including scholarship offers from USC, UCLA and Kansas. Seton Hall Prep inducted McDonald into its Hall of Fame in 1987.[4]
College career[edit] Wanting to stay close to home, McDonald gave serious consideration to offers from Penn, Princeton and the U.S. Naval Academy. He ultimately chose the University of Pennsylvania due to its strong academic reputation, nationally prominent basketball program and excellent law school. Due to the existing freshmen eligibility rules at that time McDonald could not play on the varsity team his first year at Penn. The team finished with a 23–5 overall record (13–1 in Ivy League) and were crowned as conference champions. They lost in the first round of the 1975 NCAA Tournament to Kansas State.[6]
McDonald had to be a leader on the team his sophomore year (1975-1976) due to the graduation of NBA draftees Ron Haigler and Bob Bigelow. He led Penn in scoring at 18.9 points per game,[7] but the season ended with a record of 17-9 and a second place finish in the Ivy League (11-3). The second place finish in the Ivies precluded Penn from the NCAA tournament and the overall body of work was not impressive enough to be invited to the National Invitational Tournament (NIT). Even so, McDonald earned the first of three consecutive selections to the All-Ivy League and all Big 5 teams.
As a junior (1976-1977) McDonald led the Quakers in scoring (21.2), rebounding (9.2) and was awarded the Robert V. Geasey Trophy as the best player in the Philadelphia Big 5. The season concluded with an 18-8 record and another disappointing runner-up finish in the Ivy League (12-2). Notably, this would be the final year for Chuck Daly, Penn’s head coach since the 1971–72 season.[10] Daly’s subsequent coaching career flourished and he would go on to be inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.[11]
In McDonald’s senior year (1977-1978) he lead the team in scoring for the third straight season at 22.3 points per game and was named Ivy League Player of the Year.[5]. More importantly, the Quakers as a team showed marked improvement with an overall record of 20-8. They were also Ivy League champions (12-2) earning a berth in the 1978 NCAA Tournament.[12]
Penn beat St. Bonaventure in the first round of the tournament. In that game McDonald scored a career high 37 points and grabbed 13 rebounds, both of which remain school records for the tournament. In the second round (Sweet 16), with McDonald hampered by early foul trouble, the Quakers lost a close game in the final minutes to Duke.[15], who would eventually lose in the finals to the champion Kentucky Wildcats.
McDonald is one of the most accomplished players in the history of the Penn Quakers basketball program. His 1,644 career points total is fourth on the all-time list (two of those ahead of him had four years of eligibility). Only Penn’s legendary Ernie Beck.[5] averaged more points per game. In 1985, the Big 5 honored him by inducting him into its Hall of Fame.[16] The Ivy League placed McDonald in its 2018 Class of Legends of Ivy League Basketball for his lasting contributions to his basketball program, university and chosen profession.[17] In 2019, Penn inducted McDonald into its Athletics Hall of Fame.[5]
Professional career[edit] On June 9, 1978, McDonald was selected in the second round (42nd overall) in that year's National Basketball Association draft by the Seattle SuperSonics (later relocated to Oklahoma City Thunder).[18] The SuperSonics, who were coming off of an appearance in the NBA Finals and on the verge of the franchise's only championship, did not keep any of their rookies that year. McDonald was released by head coach Lenny Wilkins on September 30, 1978[19] and went to play in Europe.[5] McDonald played 34 games for Finnish club Turun NMKY, helping the team win silver in the Korisliiga for the 1978–79 season.[20]
After returning from Europe McDonald was invited to two pre-season camps; the San Diego Clippers in 1979 and the Philadelphia 76ers in 1980. He was not picked up by either team.[21]
Post-athletic career[edit] McDonald’s failed tryout with the 76ers would be his last attempt at a professional basketball career. After stints in financial services and insurance claims he decided to go to law school. He earned a law degree (JD) from Rutgers School of Law-Newark and is a licensed New Jersey attorney. He also owns and operates McDonald Properties, LLC, a real estate investment company.
Kmacjdwiki (talk) 18:22, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald
- Hello again, I appreciate your frequent well wishes for my vacation, but the trip which has no set start date is of a different nature (family stuff I don't want get into). I was just saying, one day soon I may disappear for months from Wikipedia. Pasting your new version of the article here is not any more helpful than at the article talk page. I get the message (notification) at the same time for either. This is why I will respond to the non-Wikipedia conversation here.
- I was at Villanova after the '85 championship. I got there a couple of years after the Pavilion was opened and it was still called "John Eleuthère du Pont Pavilion" (may his name rest in shame). My final year was Kerry Kittles freshman year. Though your physical statistics are the same, I suspect he was more of an outside player than you. (I have yet to find video of you playing, sadly). Oh, and the Lancaster Roses was from another ancient category addition. When I found the roster, they had listed you at 6'8" and misspelled your name as Kevin, but it was clearly you.
- Whether or not I am able to resolve the article to your satisfaction, it has been an honor to speak to you so directly. I can't apologize on behalf of what you call my "colleagues" because they are just as much anonymous to me as they are you. Wikipedia is so vast that in my 12+ years here, I have never interacted with any of these particular people before. And if you look at the history of your article, you'll see I still make mistakes regarding formatting, categories, and infoboxes. It is a funny project in the abstract sense and I am still amazed at how reliable it has become given the open editing.
- Anyway, I am just blabbering at this point. Sorry. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 00:26, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Cobra,
First, thanks for the further insights into Wiki. Needless to say I have a much deeper (but far from complete) understanding of the workings of Wikipedia. Second, Kittles was an outstanding player. Yes, his game was much different from mine. Kerry came along a generation or so after me and the game had evolved exponentially by then. When I played there was no three point shot, except in the ABA, so there was no need for kids to develop their game beyond a certain range from the basket. I believe the dunk wasn't allowed back into high school and college until I was a freshman or sophomore at Penn. There was no 30 second clock so players like Phil "four corners" Ford of North Carolina could make careers out of stalling the ball. The point is, Kerry's skillset was a reflection of how the game had changed by his time. Third, I wish to hell that I was 6'8" as reported by the Red Roses!! My career would have certainly taken a much different trajectory. But the incorrect facts given about me on that source should caution Wikipedia about completely relying on third party sources. I played less than a few games for them (I don't even remember signing any paperwork) and I'm damn sure not 6'8".
Anyway, it's also been a pleasure corresponding with you as well. For my part I'm done here. I'll check back from time to time to make sure the article continues to accurately (mostly) reflect my ACTUAL basketball and life experience regardless of what may appear in third party sources. I only have one more question for you before I walk away from all this:
How soon will I know if any of my suggestions or changes have been implemented or not?
2601:8C:4500:6537:1891:BC97:AAD7:3F69 (talk) 17:52, 23 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald
Image[edit]
Hello, Mr. McDonald. I am happy to report that Penn sent in the image and it has passed OTRS verification and been added to the article. I am a little surprised it happened already. OTRS tells people they have a six month backlog, but maybe that's just to keep complaints at a minimum. Nevertheless, I think your article is fair and balanced. I was never able to find a source for the Kansas scholarship, however, so that may have to be an omission lost to time. Hope all is well, --SVTCobra 05:32, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Hello Cobra! Yes, I was informed by both Mr. Howes and Penn that the picture has passed the verification process and was put on my page. It looks great and breathes some life onto the page. With respect to Kansas, other than the long ago discarded recruiting letter or the plane ticket stubs from my recruiting trip I doubt you'd find any third party confirmation of their interest in me 45 years later. As an aside, on my recruiting trip I met the legendary Gale Sayers. He was an extremely nice gentleman, somewhat shorter than I would have imagined but built like brick warehouse. The players charged with showing me around that weekend were Donnie Von Moore and Norman Cook. I had a great time with those guys and they gave me the choice of picking one of two great movies to see that weekend. Both are now classics; The Sting or Papillon. I chose The Sting.
Cobra, I want to thank you for all your help with my page. You were patient with all my early mis-steps and even your admonitions were given in a constructive, reasonable manner. I have one final small favor to ask you regarding the page. Under the "Post Athletic Career" section could you please change the phrase "After being cut by the Clippers" to "After being released from the Clippers". Any former athlete will tell you Cobra that it's much easier to live with being released than with being cut :) Just sayin', thanks.
Also, there is a factual error in the same section. I did not take the job with Dean Witter in San Francisco. Although I had my initial interview there I actually took the job in the downtown Philadelphia office. If you recall, in an earlier post I told you that I couldn't have committed to an entire season with the Red Roses because I was working full time and studying for my Series 7 license at the time. It was while I was working at Dean Witter in Philly (1980) that Chuck Daly contacted me and told me that Billy Cunningham was willing to give me a tryout for the Sixers. I point this out because I know how much you guys are sticklers for the facts.
Anyway, this long, tiresome journey is over. Thanks again for all your help and please let me know if you make the small changes I mention in the paragraph immediately above. Oh yeah, I hope you had a great vacation!
2601:8C:4500:6537:6DB0:D156:44CF:2B20 (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald