User talk:Michael Eric Dehn

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Happy editing! 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 23:32, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

February 2023[edit]

Hello, I noticed that you may have recently made edits while logged out. Wikipedia's policy on multiple accounts usually does not allow the use of both an account and an IP address by the same person in the same setting and doing so may result in your account being blocked from editing. Additionally, making edits while logged out reveals your IP address, which may allow others to determine your location and identity. If this was not your intention, please remember to log in when editing. Thank you. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:40, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I note that an IP editor who may be you has decided to be abusive in these two posts. Please restrain yourself. I apologise for spelling your name incorrectly, but addressing me "GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT bucko and pay attention. is unlikely to gain my co-operation when I have simply explained what you need to do. It's abusive, as is the use of capital letters, which is perceived as shouting.

With regard to a trademark, anyone can trademark things. They are seen as interesting, but useless as sources.

We require references from significant coverage about the topic of the article, and independent of it, in multiple secondary sources which are WP:RS please. See WP:42. Please also see WP:PRIMARY which details the limited permitted usage of primary sources and WP:SELFPUB which has clear limitations on self published sources. Providing sufficient references, ideally one per fact referred to, that meet these tough criteria is likely to allow this article to remain. Lack of them or an inability to find them is likely to mean that the topic is not suitable for inclusion, certainly today.

Now, if you see things that you feel require change, please follow this process:

Find the source meeting the tough criteria in the paragraph I have indented above
Use the fact in that source as the meat of what you wish to say
Go to Talk:Metro Pulse
Create a new section there, make sure you are signed in, and enter:

{{Requested edit}}, followed by
The text you wish to add, followed by
The reference or references that you know satisfy our rules, followed by
Add ~~~~ which translates to your signature

Then watch and await a response. If you have done your work well then your request will be acceded to. If you have not met the requirements then you will have the request declined with reasons given.

I note from your message quoted above that you are happy to use the law to enforce your rights, which is an excellent route in commerce. You said "until we shut it down for trademark infringement in 2015 excepting for fact listed parties DID NOT CREATE publication, I DID and can prove it here AND in a court of law" For wikipedia we only record what is said about the organisation, in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the organisation. If those sources say that black is white we quote those sources, however ridiculous that may be. Wikipedia is what is known as a tertiary source. We will not use information except that which comes from secondary sources except as documented in the indented paragraph.

That was a preamble to the final piece of information I have for you, which is that you should not make legal threats here. It is possible to interpret the text in green as a legal threat, but it is just, I think, on the right side of the line. You are justifiably proud of the work you have done, but please exercise both politeness and restraint in the future.

Now, I think I have given you every single tool you need to pursue your path of seeking to correct any inaccuracies on the article. If you have any further questions might I suggest you visit The Teahouse and request further assistance or clarification there.

Finally, please never address me as Bucko, which I perceive as an insult, as, I am sure, would you. Please either never address me again, or use my name. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:06, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You will see that I have flagged the article as requiring an update, certainly for the period post circa 2015. I have also started a discussion on its talk page. You should place your requests below that section. Please be aware that you are considered to be a Paid Editor for edits relating to Metro Pulse. You should make the relevant declaration on your user page by using {{Paid}} with all parameters filled out. This provides transparency. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:17, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate your follow up. Thought you were a bot which is why I launched on misspelling my name because to me it represented sloppy research and follow up documented in my case and initially clearly demonstrated to me the very thing that I first became involved with you for, to correct misinformation which you waltzed right into smack dab into my world to boot. As for your guidance suggestions, I will review as I did review the neutral sources section of instructions and frankly it confused me. As an investigative journalist acclimated in assimilating facts , the idea of posting things in such a flippant manner because it seems it is there without a proper check and balance (I know there is an internal editorial one) in loosely defined public domain parameters makes me uncomfortable given my experience in this fake news world but I will soldier on and see if it works for me. I get the concept you operate under and frankly in concept it introduces a spectre of misinformation to a point in some content areas like mine, just like Metro Pulse never being properly investigated in the public domain parameters that are readily available to anyone inclined to investigate and seemingly at the mercy of previously posted content that easily could be misconstrued or planted, and I vehemently disagree with your brush aside mentality on trademark importance, especially in defining background information in certain quarters because it is some of the only reference material that is unassailable to a journalist and can be proven as true, at least here in the US but given the global reach of Wiki it may make sense on that level.You mention I made legal threats which was not the intent of that statement. I was merely clarifying that if confronted in a legal or any situation as an example regarding the use of Metro Pulse I know I have unassailable rights that apply which can be proven, which I intended as a statement of fact, not a threat with a court of law insinuated as the final forum for adjudication, nothing more and in my world I cling to those documented facts.In my experience as an entrepreneur I been repeatedly confronted with parties infringing on my rights in a variety of cases and attempting to steal my ideas and concepts and that experience has goaded me into owning multiple trademarks that ultimately I would like to edit as well but first things first. I have used Wiki in my news forays on metropulse.com and found you to be most useful in certain types of content, especially history, pop culture etc where the content tends to be more static. The content on the 1939 Turkey earthquake framed in the context of the current disaster is a recent example of this. Q? can podcasts be posted as references? Much of my content is on sites I own which may not be considered neutral but the podcasts atre insightful and informative and absolutely hosted impartial platforms. I hope this reply clears the air and sets us on a path of resolution and execution and building on Wiki as a bastion of properly curated content for the masses at least in my world. 23.25.8.205 (talk) 17:01, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please log in. It's not just as a courtesy, there are rules about it.

As a journalist I know you will always have trouble with the way Wikipedia works. Your job is tp break a story, with sufficient references to be able to defend a libel action. Wikipedia is far simpler than that. It is genuinely not news. See WP:NOTNEWS, though some editors try to be pretend journalists.

Wikipedia records, often many months after the "thing" it is recording, what is said about that "thing" in secondary sources. Disregarding our well meaning but over-enthusiastic pseudo newshounds, nothing is (or ought to be) posted in anything near real time. See WP:NODEADLINE. We dont care about being out if date, but will work to correct matters when brought to our attention. But we also work as volunteers and often slowly.

Now, Trademarks. They are as much use as Patents when it comes to referencing. They can verify simple facts - does X exist? - but the do not and can not verify WP:V the notability WP:N of X. It's like your birth certificate showing your date of birth. Fact proven, but not whether you are a notable person. That is proven by other matters.

Can a podcast be a useful reference? Yes and no. As a Primary Source it can verify simple facts. As a self Published Source it can do the same. But is that podcast a reliable source, independent of the topic at hand? It can be, but that depends. If the podcast is from (say) The BBC, by respected BBC journalist, then the balance of probability swings in its favour. If it is my own podcast produced by me, then just like my Twitter feed it is 100% useless, probab[y even at simple factual confirmation.

I'm sorry if I've missed answering a question or two. The large single paragraph was somewhat impenetrable. Feel free to ask for more information. To draw my attention to any reply three things are important.

Be logged in
Place {{Ping|Timtrent}} at the start od what you tyoe
Sign your post using the four tilde character.

All these things must be true in the same post for the ping to work. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:16, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your quick reply. Hesitated to log in until I felt a little more comfortable with your operations, your input here highlights that and clarifies the amended reality I need to adapt to. Will jump in later this week and appeciate support MD 23.25.8.205 (talk) 17:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is one further thing to know. Editors who have been here a while are fiercely protective of Wikipedia. That is as it should be. Indeed, it is as you would expect it to be.

Wikipedia works by consensus. We, which now includes you, "own" it. We have deliberated over our rules, and can also change them, but by consensus. When a consensus is formed, whether we agree with it or not, we are duty bound to obey it, to submit to it. We may seek to make changes to a current consensus, and that succeeds when the arguments are sufficiently powerful to sway the community's consensus. It is a weird, and intricate place.

With that in mind, I think I have given you the toolset that will allow you not to encounter that fierce protection, because your work will be wise, unhurried, and within the rules. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:45, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes sir it absolutely will. I am certainly not keen to run afoul of the rules and mandates established prior to my joining the "consensus" as you say and am envisioning a post that connects all the dots with a built in flexibility within the aforementioned parameters. My story should be amenable in this context and I encourage feedback as we develop content before final posting/approvals.

I read your input on legitimacy of podcasts as info sources and wanted to guide you to 2 I have done, both well respected entities in their own right I have no direct affiliation to. How would you review to approve before I take the time to post to be prudent in time allocation as they are key in telling story? Both are posted on rock-expo.com (one is from Goldmine Magazine , the other Zepfan, top LZ collector's site), one of my other sites that that dovetails with my Guinness World record and deep dives the Metro Pulse story with documentation from the last 40 years in conjunction to that. That is where I will start and provides you insight into how you think I should proceed in this, as you say, weird and intricate place.

There are many images I could post to augment storyline so if you could take a look and guide me on how I can tell my story on Wiki transferred from web site that would be most helpful and save us both time as story already written but probably needs tweaks to work in your world

BEST MD 23.25.8.205 (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You would need to provide me links to the podcasts. Unheard, because they are yours, and because it is, presumably, your organisation, I would suggest that they are impossible to use as references except to verify incontrovertible facts. Even then an independent source is preferred. Know that I have opinions, but am not always correct.

Now, pictures. This gets more complex.

First Wikipedia deprecates pictures used as decoration. It finds them difficukt as sources that seek to verify notability.

Second, a picture must be correctly licenced. By this we mean that it must not violate anyone's copyright, and must be licenced for any onward use. That sounds deceptively simple, but it is not.

Let us suppose, for example, that you upload a picture of yourself. It will be subject to probable deletion based upon the following rationale:

This is, or appears to be, a picture of the uploader, but there is no evidence that the image is under an acceptable free licence. Ownership or possession of a photo, proprietorship of the equipment used to take the photo, or being the subject of the photo does not equate holding the copyright. The copyright holder is the photographer (i.e. the person who took the photo), rather that the subject (the person who appears in the photo) or the person possessing the photo, unless transferred by operation of law (e.g. inheritance, etc.) or by contract (written and signed by the copyright holder, and explicitly transfers the copyright). Evidence of any transfer of licencing must be sent via c:COM:VRT (Wikimedia Commons or WP:VRT The English Language Wikipedia.

Let us suppose you upload the cover of a magazine. Unless formally permissions by the copyright owner (VRT again, or being otherwise licenced for onward use where that licence is obvious) it will be subject to deletion based upon either copyright violation or inadequate permissions

I cannot cover all examples, obviously, but WP:COPYRIGHTS sets you on the right road on Wikipedia and c:Commons:Copyright rules for Commons

----

Now, to strategy and tactics.

Consider a preamble to your requests, explaining;aining with simp.le clarity what you wish to achieve, consensus willing
Do not necessarily request a large swathe of text be added, nor removed. It is better by far to ask for several bite sized chunks in separate requests.
Where you wish text to be replaced, be specific about what you want to go and what you want to replace it.
Accept with excellent grace that people will not always agree with you, and that one or more of your requests may fail. Be prepared to discuss, but never insist.
Accept that nothing will happen in the timescale that is short enough for you. Exercise extreme patience.

Wikipedia is larger than any of us. Not many of us survive for long enough to grow old here. Those of us who do have learned fast to submit to consensus, and, when we make mistakes, to understand them and apologise for them. We are, though, as vulnerable to our mistakes and termination of our editing rights as the newest editor here. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:08, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again for your prompt reply. Images i am envisioning I created and own so no worries there. Podcast link here from an independent source

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/zepfan-all-things-led-zeppelin/id1648761885?i=1000585184506 23.25.8.205 (talk) 20:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS I get the time frame stuff No worries 23.25.8.205 (talk) 20:19, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm listening to the podcast. It verifies that you are connected with metropulse.com, but it is also an interview with you. Please do not take this the wrong way, I am about to say it how it is.

Wikipedia is not interested in what you have to say about yourself or any organisation owned or controlled by you.

This is considered to be WP:PRIMARY and/or WP:SELFPUB. I am 6 minutes in. Does anything that would contradict my initial impression happen later? That woudl include a reasonably substantial piece of editorialising by the interviewer.

I do not know the interviewer, I also suspect "Zepfan" is not considered to be a reliable source. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:28, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Listen to more, it is more revealing. 23.25.8.205 (talk) 20:29, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS Appreciate time you are putting into this 23.25.8.205 (talk) 20:45, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to search for the 2015 incident you described. I cannot yet find it. I can see that MP was shut down but its then owners, but that is all

I don't have the time at present to listen further. I am pretty much at the end of the time I can devote to it. I'm more interested in "teaching you to fish" than in the entity Metro Pulse. I have seen that there is more history available than the brief article, but inclusion depends upon the reliability of the source 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:50, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]