User talk:Olive66

Middlesbrough

I have reverted your edits removing reference to North Yorkshire from the Middlesbrough page. Officially, Middlesbrough is part of the ceremonial county of North Yorkshire. It is Wikipedia UK policy to show the ceremonial county and to include this in the introduction to articles. The article goes on to clarify Middlesbrough's previous history as part of the County Borough of Teesside and the County of Cleveland and that it is now a unitary authority independent of the non-metropolitan county of North Yorkshire. This is the correct style for Wikipedia as set out at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)/Counties :-

We should mention historic (or ancient) counties in articles about places and in references to places in a historic context, but only as an afternote. If a place is a unitary authority and not administered by a county council, it is acceptable to use ceremonial counties as geographic references, as this is often more in line with common usage. As has been pointed out, it is not useful to state that "Luton is a town in the county of Luton".

The policy is further amplified at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements:-

Lead (see also WP:LEAD): Include the following

Name of settlement, type of settlement (e.g. suburb, town, city, civil parish), its contemporary local government district / council area, contemporary/ceremonial county (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places), for the use of counties), and constituent country.

It is not part of some general conspiracy to assert the right of the historic or traditionalist counties (there has been enough trouble with that on Wikipedia over the years) but simply sets out the correct official position. Effectively, being in the ceremonial county means that it is covered by the Lord Lieutenant of that county.

You will find full details at Ceremonial counties of England :-

Following a further rearrangement in 1996, Avon, Cleveland, Hereford and Worcester, and Humberside were abolished. This led to a resurrection of a distinction between the local government counties and the ceremonial or geographic counties used for Lieutenancy, and also to the adoption of the term 'ceremonial counties', which although not used in statute was used in the House of Commons prior to the arrangements coming into effect.

Avon was mostly split between Gloucestershire and Somerset, with Bristol regaining its status of a county of itself. Cleveland was partitioned between North Yorkshire and County Durham. Hereford and Worcester was split into Herefordshire and Worcestershire. Humberside was split between a new ceremonial county of East Riding of Yorkshire, with the remaining parts going to Lincolnshire. Also at this time, Rutland was restored as a ceremonial county. Many county boroughs were re-established as 'unitary authorities'.

North Yorkshire is described there as :-

North Yorkshire, including York, Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland, and Stockton-on-Tees south of the River Tees

Skinsmoke (talk) 12:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Andy. Thanks for your message. Before I reply, please put any response here on your Talk page - I'll keep a watch on it. That way, it isn't necessary to keep flicking back and forth to follow the thread of a discussion. And by the way, if you sign your message with 4 tildes (~) your User Name and a link to your Talk page, plus the time and date, will automatically appear at the end of your comment.

I would suggest the following :-

Middlesbrough (pronunciation^ⓘ: /ˈmɪdəlzbrə/) is a town in the Tees Valley connurbation and within the ceremonial county of North Yorkshire, England. It is the largest and most populous settlement within the Borough of Middlesbrough, which encompasses the town and several outlying villages which have become suburbs.

I have used the term Tees Valley rather than Teesside as this is the sub-region used for statistical purposes. It includes Darlington which was never in Teesside.

Your point about mentioning the ceremonial county in the first paragraph rendering part of the second paragraph superfluous is not really correct. The Wikipedia UK policy is to mention the contemporary ceremonial county in the lead, and to go on to further explain the historical position in an afternote (see the second and fourth paragraphs of this discussion). I hope what I've suggested manages to deal with your concerns without infringing the Wikipedia UK policy.

Skinsmoke (talk) 23:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I think that your version makes sense. Though the noun 'Tees Valley' carries (Labour) political connotations it does reflect some kind of real administrative area - while 'Teesside' is purely conceptual these days.. "...in the county of North Yorkshire." was wrong.

Thanks again.

Andy

Olive66 (talk) 22:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)