User talk:Paulojmartins

Warning and Request about your recent edits which may be considered Vandalism

Please, pirolito1 (yes, I am aware of you in our club's website), you have to understand that the fact that the FPF shows these competitions does not make them official at all. Much like the fact that Benfica showing them in their "Palmarés" does not make them official either. These competitions give tremendous merit to Benfica but they were not official and I am very sad to see that you are gullible enough to believe that changing this will bring any glory back to the past. Let Benfica become a great club for what it can do now and not for lies inspired in the loss of so many things in so many years. We are all aware of Benfica's strength, but that does not mean that we have to lie away just because we cannot stand to lose to FC Porto. Let's face it, they have been better every single year, but they are getting weaker. I alert you to stop vandalizing Wikipedia. Even Benfica itself, as well as highly-supportive newspapers "A Bola" and "Record" refuse to see these as official trophies, by which we can see that all your editions are a product of sadness and insecurity towards our club's future. Please stop this constant vandalism. The glory of our club will show itself without your lies. You embarass our club with this. Once again, please, do not ruin Wikipedia because of a personal silly lie. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 00:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

And, answering myself, I'd like to speak to you. Do you think that our club will grow bigger with this? Do you think this is what makes us a better club? Please! We have been a bad club in the last 30 years. We have given Porto reasons to smile! It is only fair that we learn from our mistakes and grow strong once more! It is not with comments from our serbenfiquista website that talk down to FC Porto and that insult the people at Wikipedia! Those comments are from ignorant people who probably clean gutters for a living, such is their level of rudeness and blindness. Why don't you do constructive edits and clean up the page of "O Glorioso" to make it more beautiful? Is it really that important to lie about our trophies? We have the media on our side (Record & A Bola)! Let them do that! We should support our club so that it wins on its own, with its good football and not with our absurd vandalism. The kind of edits that you pushed forward are what makes Porto fans be right about one thing: We do not know how to lose. Learn how to lose now, because we will win big time this year. I bet you're old enough to have some sense and to realize that what you are doing shows not a football fan but an irrational clubistic editor with no interest in the truth.

Answer

Our club's website refered to the post where you added this information as pirolito1, where a bunch of idiots decided to insult other people as if that were going to make Benfica win more trophies. I am sorry, but we all know that Record and A Bola support our club and neither them nor the club itself have supported this. The listing of the competitions does not make them official, much like Latin Cup (which was indeed a wonderful trophy for us, even though unofficial). For instance, the FPF hosted two other supercups (won by Boavista and Benfica) that were not official -- organizing does make something official. You should understand that this is Wikipedia and careful sources are needed. You claim that you only want to add trophies to due winners be them Benfica or not, but in the serbenfiquista website, where you talk about your editions, you clearly state that, for instance, Latin Cup was official (should I remind you that FIFA and UEFA have talked about this? For pitty's sake, some games went more than 120 minutes!). Let us focus our strengths in supporting our club the right way. There is no "lie" to bring Porto ahead -- if there is anything it is the other way around, I'm afraid, as Record still lists the latin cup even though their director stated that they only do because "he was touched by that victory". You see, it is you who appear to be trying to spread lies, but that will not bring us titles. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 01:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Not an announcement but a direct confirmation from FIFA staff to "Agência Lusa": http://desporto.publico.pt/noticia.aspx?id=1495851 . I do not calim that Benfica's results make them unofficial. I claim that Benfica's poor results in the last decades have made our fans enter a raging state in which they refuse to accept the other clubs' victory (much like they do with our victories). Latin Cup was a great trophy for us to win, of course, much like Taça Eusébio! It is, however, not official. If, someday, the FPF speaks about this 70x68 trophies issue and announces that all the media were wrong (do you see how ridiculous this sounds? All the media?) and that those old competitions should count, you will be able to legitimally add these titles. Until then, it is vandalism because it is not the truth (as in, they are not official). I will, once again, strengthen my comparison: two supercups held by the FPF are not official. While the listing seems to support the claim (for instance, by supercup argument is shattered by the supercup date in that FPF page), in any place does it state them as official. Look at the portuguese wikipedia, were sports things are much cleaner (although I must agree there are some pro-Porto things I don't like in Benfica's page). 188.80.227.188 (talk) 01:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

And with this, I leave you. You may fool yourself and others, but that will just embarass me as a fan of this great club that Benfica is. Do what you want -- even challenging all the media and our own club which does not list these as official! 188.80.227.188 (talk) 01:36, 8 August 2011 (UTC) Let me just add that what you call "desperate campaign" has been nothing but the opposite. In fact, pitty the fool who has not seen an international trophy since 1962, like us, and believes that his club is still better and is even hit by the media. Get a grip, we own the media. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 01:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, I shall now leave you. I will cary on with my grade A "blindness". If this makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, go ahead, add trophies to Benfica. You embarass this great club that is Benfiac with your vicious, unreliable, distrustful and pathetic editing, going against all references out there. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 01:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Answer

I am sorry, I have said that I wouldn't discuss this any further and that you could edit what you wanted. Let me just add that, in http://serbenfiquista.com/forum/index.php?topic=44812.0 "pirolito1" states that he has created the Taça Ribeiro dos Reis page (created by you). Hence, you are "pirolito1". Further on I only used that page to show that you could have (look at the title and at what you say) been biased. However, I'd like to point out three things (let me remind you that your only argument besides claiming without references that the competitions were official has been "there is an FPF website with these competitions listed in" and that you seemed to ignore the truthfulness of the FIFA confirmation to portuguese agencies that Latin Cup was not official at all):

• Why do you think that those 3 competitions (Ribeiro dos Reis, FPF, Tejo) show up in a separate table under "Other Competitions" in the page you refer to (http://www.fpf.pt/portal/page/portal/PORTAL_FUTEBOL/COMPETICOES/QUADRO )? You see, it is not because they no longer exist, otherwise the "Campeonato de Portugal" would also have to be there. It is also not because some incarnations of it do not exist, since, as you say in serbenfiquista.com, they were predecessors of the "League Cup" (much like "Campeonato de Portugal" was a predecessor to "Taça de Portugal"). Hence, it is now clear that these 3 competitions are not with the others for a specific reason: because they are "other trophies" not deemed official.
• The FPF site is not that trustworthy in terms of "official titles". For instance, if you click on the "European Honours" you will be directed for an outdated page in which Porto's Europa league 2010-11 doesn't show up and in which "Latin Cup" appears. While it is fine to see "Latin Cup" (nowhere in the FPF site is there an information that only official competitions are shown), it is not fine to see such a great success and honour of the Portuguese Football as was the Europa League 2010-11 missing. This goes to show that the FPF website lacks updating and that it does not necessarily have an official trophies listing (it is undeniable that even though Latin Cup was a great honour, it was not official at all, as it didn't even follow modern football regulations and, once again, FIFA confirmed when asked about the issue that they did not see Latin Cup as official at all).

With this said, you would have to find a way to prove that these 3 competitions are in the "Other Trophies" for a very particular reason and explain it, while trying to defend your pseudo-argument. I have already shown you that it is not because it is finished nor because it still exists in some kind of way. I think it is pretty irrefutable that those competitions stand out because even though they were organized by the FPF (probably with some honour four the clubs whon won them), they were not official -- for instance, do you have the rules of said competitions to see if they match FIFA standards? And, once again, even if you did, it still doesn't explain them being left out and will not be convinced if you do not touch this point with high rationality, as it seems to be lacking.

Adding to this issue, you'd have to find proof that the FPF list only official competitions and you'd have to find valid references to have your editions in Wikipedia be considered valid (remember that they must be Verifiable). Without valid references there is no way you can change such important pages and go against the media (which, in some cases, counts Latin Cup, even though they state that it is not official. See this citation to understand what I mean: http://100porcentodragao.blogs.sapo.pt/13745.html ; it is obvious that they acknowledge that FIFA has decided, even though they take the liberty, as an independent institution, of including whatever they wish in a listing, which is, then, deemed unoficial) and all the other Wikipedias. I would like to not have to talk about this again, as without proper references that explicitly state that these trophies are valid and that Benfica and Porto's trophy counts are the ones that you claim (as well as the other club's counts) you cannot edit any wikipedia page to insert this information because it is not information, it is biased and source-less text.

Lastly, please learn to sign your comments with four tildes. It is very rude not to do so. You must be new here around Wikipedia. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 10:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Just some more info, answering specific questions you posed:

• Just because a competition is held by "four federations" it does not make it official. If you cared anything about the truth you'd consider Latin Cup unofficial, as FIFA (they are the highest in the hierarchy so they cannot be doubted) "announced"/reported it (http://aeiou.expresso.pt/fifa-diz-que-fc-porto-e-o-clube-portugues-com-mais-titulos=f651045 ) and, for instance, Record confirmed it, even though they include it (http://100porcentodragao.blogs.sapo.pt/13745.html and http://comunidade.xl.pt/Record/blogs/quintadocareca/archive/2011/05/25/a-ta-231-a-latina-n-227-o-conta-pr-224-fifa-pois-conta-para-o-record.aspx). Remember that once FIFA speak about a matter, we cannot go against them, since they are the highest hierarchy in football. No argument can break this -- it is a fact and you have only been going around it by talking about "federations". Look, it's this simple: FIFA is in charge here: not you, not me, not old federations and legislation. You say "Why would FIFA consider Taça Latina as an official FIFA competition if it wasn't", but as you see, that is incorrect, as FIFA does not consider Taça Latina as official and it never publicly considered it. Even if it had publicly considered it it is their last opinion that matters.
• As to "where a bunch of idiots decided to insult other people" it is not related to you, but to other users in the serbenfiquista.com website who think that by insulting other clubs and their fans Benfica will win more titles. In the post that I directed you to we see that kind of attitude. This, however, is to be ignored as I did not use it to strengthen my argument at all; I merely said it because I am tired of the kind of people that criticize other clubs because Benfica (my club) doesn't win. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 10:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Your edits were indeed vandalism in the sense that they did not contain any reference at all (I should remind you that they are mandatory: did you read Wikipedia guidelines?). Furthermore you failed to argue against the list arguments that I have above and that carefully built as to peform a semi-deductive chain that keeps coherent, ignoring every single time a valid reference was posted. That is not how Wikipedia works, we don't ignore references, we need them. You have proven that you cannot stand your case that there is media manipulation against all clubs other than Porto -- and this includes proving subthemes such as Latin Cup validity, Taça Ribeiro dos Reis validity and FPF cup validity, among others. All the arguments you presented (with only one reference, an FPF page) were shut down by valid, credible and *in use* references and by deeply analyzing the reference you provided, as well as the credibility (essential according Wikipedia guidelines) of the source you pointed. As so, do as you prefer -- knowing not to violate the Wikipedia rules -- but do not forget that you did not find any way to counter the above arguments with logical and coherent counter-arguments. Resorting to matters of speech and not of objectivity (prefering to touch what I say about you and fans instead of the real arguments that I present, the true objective content of my text), you failed to find a way to poke a whole into my logic and to prove that any of those competitions had, indeed, official status (should I remind you once more that Latin Cup has been officialy declared to be unofficial?). I will now request that you do not answer this at all -- clearly my arguments have stood this test of strength and you have spared the time to crush them. Once again, edit as you may, but remember that the truth lies not in what the eyes see but in what logic and rationalization prove it to be; adeductive argument holds against everything -- and you have been the perfect "test case" to be shot down by a semi-deductive argument supported on several deductive arguments; the mind is a tricky thing, it makes us all biased.

Happy editing (no irony here) and I hope you contribute with many positive things to Wikipedia. Remember, references with credibility are mandatory. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 18:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Now, this is rude, I'm sorry, but I had to clarify about what I meant with "rudeness". If you read the Wikipedia guidelines then you know that you must sign your message with four tildes. However, you never did that -- and that's rude here in the Wikipedia world. After I said it, you did it again, so I thought I should clarify this for your future edits. Once again, do not reply to me, but remember to always sign your messages whenever you edit a "talk" page; and remenber that it is not the personal part of a discussion that matters to the article but the objective one: I might, in my insanity, mix them both, but only in one instance did I see your objectivity (when you showed me your reference). Happy editing! 188.80.227.188 (talk) 19:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

About the Iberian Cup, Latin Cup, Taça Ribeiro dos Reis and Taça FPF

Both the Iberian Cup and Latin Cup were officially recognized by the FPF and foreign football federations. Also, both Taça Ribeiro dos Reis and Taça FPF were created by the FPF.

The Latin Cup was the biggest european tournament at the time, and was supported by the portuguese, spanish, french and italian federations. UEFA didn't even exist back then. I'm sure UEFA and FIFA have their own reasons not to recognize the Latin Cup, but it is still widely accepted as major title, even today, by prestigious clubs like Barcelona and Real Madrid.

The Iberian Cup is trickier. There were several editions of the Iberian Cup, some official and some unofficial. There were only 2 editions that were officially recognized by both the portuguese and spanish federations: 1 won by Benfica in the 80's and the other won by Vitoria Setubal in 2005. FPF even provided the trophy in the Benfica one, while Vitoria's Iberian Cup was played as a friendly game(partly because that match was a part of Torneio de Guadiana).

Taça Ribeiro dos Reis (TRR) was an official "league cup"-like tournament where the teams from the top2 portuguese divisions played for it. The main question here is, is TRR a major competition or not? Some feel it is, others don't. The problem here is that many of the 1st division teams, like Benfica, played the reserves instead of their top players, while the 2nd division teams played with their best. Either way, it maybe shouldn't be included in the major honours without more info.

And lastly, the Taça FPF was a one off competition made by FPF(duh), There's so little info about it, that it would be controversial whether you include it in the major honours table or not.

FYI: I was the guy that created the major honours table. The reason I didn't initially include the cups mentioned above is because it was the "safest" bet, but it is by no means the final format.

Shiriu (talk) 03:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. besides which, references are needed to prove that they are official, since the media (a main source of references) do not count them as official. Besides that, there's the issue of their separation in the FPF site (like I said above). And even then it is quite ridiculous to consider them major official competitions (ignoring Latin Cup, which is (!= was) not official), since, like you said, the major clubs played with their reserve players -- and, hey, it is also true that they still do in the first stages of the "League Cup", but in the ending rounds the teams are indeed the best (even though it still is our most pathetic competition). I don't like the sound of having a Wikipedia go against all the newspapers, television chains, etc. Unfortunately, it seems that nowadays a competition that was official can lose its status, so we should be very careful with our verb tenses -- Latin Cup was official (even though it had completely different rules and was organized by an invitation, among other peculiarities of the time), but it is not anymore. 188.80.227.188 (talk) 16:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

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