User talk:Spiritual Transcendence

Edit fixing

I was removing duplication on Mickey Mouse Funhouse. 75.82.160.163 (talk) 06:07, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@75.82.160.163: ah ok, thanks for letting me know, I see the duplication now. For future reference, it might be a good idea to use edit summaries when making large removals like that, so other editors know what is happening. Spiritual Transcendence (talk) 06:20, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Reply

Yes, many need help and you are doing some of that, but not labeling a museum source as primary or COI, which is so unusual here that I'd of course usually call in other editors or post it on the visual arts page, but won't, because, who knows, personal ethics or something. Jeez louise. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:45, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn: maybe we should launch an RfC on this at some point (at some type of Wikipedia reliable sources noticeboard) because we seem to have markedly differing opinions on the matter. Spiritual Transcendence (talk) 15:52, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the painting itself would be considered the primary source, not the museum. You can ask at the reputable source page, although I believe this has been decided long ago. I'm not interested in starting an RfC at this point, enquiries should be enough to answer your question, but of course feel free to start one if you'd like. Maybe also ask at or alert the WikiProject Visual Arts page, where someone may know more about this aspect of sourcing of art articles. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:00, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The F Club

I am the founder and promoter of The F Club. The current article has annoyed me for a long time, it was never a punk club, it came after punk and was always called a New Wave night. Yes, I did promote some punk bands, but the majority were from an eclectic sampling of all the new and interesting music that was emerging form the post-punk scene. Much of the article is wrong! Venues are wrong! Bands who played there are wrong! The bit about Nazi skinheads is wrong! Yes, there was some trouble at other venues, I was promoting at a West Indian club with black bar staff and large black bouncers... Do you think we would have been bothered by skinheads? I did my best to keep the club a fun night out and made it as politically neutral as I could. I banned the distribution of any political literature and anyone 'trying it on' was removed.- I've tried to correct it several times , but I keep being knocked back for the original mis-guided piece. - If you need proof of who I am go to Facebook: John F Keenan or The F Club or I loved the F Club. Please give me the opportunity to correct the article or even write a comprehensive piece. Alongside The F Club I promoted bigger acts in bigger venues, I promoted the Futurama Festivals and the Duchess in Leeds for 12 years. There's a play being performed this Saturday, at Leeds Playhouse, about The F Club, with an actor playing yours truly... I will be answering Questions after. Come and see me if you want proof. Jozaka48 (talk) 16:12, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jozaka48: if you are the founder and promoter of the F Club, then that means you have a conflict of interest, and thus you should not be editing the article directly. Instead, please propose changes at the article's talk page for other neutral editors to review. In any case, original research is not allowed, and all data you wish to include must be properly sourced. Spiritual Transcendence (talk) 19:19, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

This is what is wrong with Wikipedia. Other people can make up your history, cutting and pasting and putting things in the wrong order, also misreading and misinterpreting events. I have everything documented and will soon be releasing a book on The F Club, maybe you can use that as a reference? Oh, hang on... that would be using my words. - In the meantime, I have to accept the badly researched and unfounded material. I would rather it be deleted than be wrong! - I know the TRUE history because I was there every night. There is no conflict of interest, I'm trying to correct erroneous detail with facts. Unfortunately Wikipedia don't seem to want to know, they would rather have someone guess and invent stories. It would be easy for me to put up someone to stand in for me, but they don't know the facts either. - If I can find someone at the top of Wikipedia, I will put in a complaint, but that's like swimming across an obstacle-ridden swamp. - Sometimes I despair at what people are getting away with these days. --- I would be really happy if you could delete the whole article. - One day someone will be able to write the truth. Jozaka48 (talk) 23:46, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Properly sourced? Don't make me laugh. - I am the source. - The whole article is NOT 'properly sourced', so many things are inaccurate; it's OK to cite a webpage or a video clip, but if it isn't right then it's of no use at all. Everything I've tried to correct and edit has been rejected. I'm giving you the opportunity to get it right. - My thoughts are that I should put this to the members who were there and on my Facebook pages. If you are not prepared to alter the article, then it seems to be the only course of action. - I am particularly annoyed by the reference to the Nazi skinheads, I made sure there was no trouble on my watch. Yes, it happened in a few other pubs and venues, especially at RAR events, but not at my night, any signs of misbehaviour and we would remove them from the venue. Political flyers were banned, we tried to stay politically neutral. It's a propagated myth, that is only enhanced by your article and gives the thugs some prominence and credibility. Why mention Eddie Morrison? He was not a regular, he was not important I wouldn't even have known what he looked like. To me he was just another fascist trying to groom scared rough lads to join his gang of nasties, which I didn't allow in my club. Of course there was tension around those times and some of the younger 'punks' felt intimidated. But, with the help of my bouncers and older patrons, I always tried to protect them. - My policy was always to talk to the kids who frequented the club, many of them long-time members, who were like family to me.. you can't solve a problem by ignoring it. Jozaka48 (talk) 00:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Jozaka48, I'm not active on the page nor have an interest in becoming so, but noticed this discussion. Spiritual Transcendence is correct in that you shouldn't edit the page yourself, and should leave your suggested edits on the talk page of the article. To assist I copied your first post above to the F Club talk page, then alerted the WikiProject Yorkshire and WikiProject Music about it. That may at least expand the discussion about your concerns. Enjoy the play this weekend, hopefully it's noisy and done well. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:15, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The beginnings of The 'F' Club (in 1977) were at Leeds Poly in the Art Department common room. When the students took their summer break, a friend of mine, Graham Cardy, whose brother, Phil, was a Leeds art student, suggested to me that the common room might be available for some shows (I had already promoted some larger gigs at Leeds Poly and Wakefield Unity Hall with bands like Johnny Thunders Heartbreakers and The Vibrators). I looked at the room and decided to go along with it. As I was the one with a job and had some money behind me, I booked and contracted the acts which included, The Police, The Slits, XTC, The Vibrators, The Boys, Slaughter & The Dogs, The Spitfire Boys (NOT the Psychedelic Furs - they first played later on at The FAN Club at Brannigan's in March 1980).

At short notice, the Student Committee told us that we would have to vacate the premises, before the students came back and we wouldn't be able to hold any more gigs in the common room. We had such a great crowd of regulars, misfits from all walks of life, that I thought it would be a shame to break it all up. The idea came to me that we should form a club (£1 membership with a 25p discount off gigs and a % off garments in certain punky clothes shops). The 'F' Club was born, I called it that because it was like, "'F... the Poly, we'll go somewhere else". On the last day at The Poly I wrote on the bottom of the membership application 'Let's get the 'F' out of here!". In a short space of time, I managed to secure a night at The Ace of Clubs, a fading cabaret venue On Woodhouse Street, a couple of streets away from The University. Graham didn't want to come, but, along with the new members, I took DJ Claire Shearsby with me, she was a valuable asset, with a taste in music that tapped into the zeitgeist. - Notable acts there included: Wilko Johnson, The Rezillos, X-Ray Spex, The Killjoys (Kevin Rowlands), Penetration plus early gigs from The Gang of 4 and The Mekons (no Siouxsie or Joy division, I booked them later at Roots in 1978).

In the Spring of 1978, the Ace of clubs had a suspicious fire, so I moved The 'F' Club to Roots in Chapeltown. The acts I promoted there included: Howard Devoto's Magazine, Siouxsie & The Banshees, Joy Division, Suicide, The Rich Kids, Wayne County & The Electric Chairs, Big in Japan, The Adverts, The Rezillos.

In the late 60s I lived on Chapeltown Road, around the corner from what was then known as The International Club, formerly a synagogue. Carl Young, a friend of a good pal of mine, Winston Smith (both from the Caribbean island of Nevis, where coincidently my brother and his wife were teaching) had obtained the lease on the club from owner, Astlee Hyman; Carl was interested in my proposal to move my nights there. - It was later renamed, The Phoenix Club, The Cosmopolitan Club and then Cosmo's. - I don't ever remember it being called The Continental, as stated on the Wiki page.

Carl Young is correct, I did let some younger, impressionable NF customers into the club, with warnings that if they misbehaved they would be out. - The club was there for everyone to enjoy music. My feeling was that they were drinking in a West Indian establishment in a multi-cultural area of Leeds and would be foolish to start anything. I used to talk to them, some were decent lads, who had been groomed by older men. My politics are left of centre, but I have always been tolerant of the views of other people, even if they don't fit with mine. I believed then and still do, that by giving those youngsters (most were still in their teens) that opportunity to mix with persons from other races, it might have softened their ingrained opinions. - In some cases, I know it worked.

You cannot persuade young minds by excluding them, they were mixing with other New Wave fans, the main thing they had in common was the music. By allowing them to enter, we were aware of their presence and observed their behaviour. - 'Better the Devil you know'. - During my time at Roots we did not have any altercations, fights or disturbances within the premises. None of the shows were disrupted or compromised, as erroneously stated in the original Wiki article. - There was only one encounter, when I had Sham 69 booked to play. The band cancelled at the last minute; they had been offered a BBC Top of the Pops slot because their single had entered the charts. - I managed to inform most of the members, but on the night, a mini-bus, full of older-looking skinheads, turned up alongside the club. I stood at the door and told them the gig had been cancelled and gave the reasons; the bunch of lads walked away somewhat disgruntled. - Later, I heard an unfounded story that they had gone somewhere else and caused trouble. However, I had taken down the number of the mini-bus and had reported it to the police. The police decided to take no action, which led me to think that they could have been 'agent provocateurs' and that we may have dodged a bullet.

In June 1978, a far-left magazine, The Leveller, printed an article claiming the 'F' stood for 'fascist'. This was very annoying and just wasn't true. However, in July 1978 I changed the name to The FAN Club and in October 1978, moved it to Brannigan's, Call Lane, in the city centre of Leeds. The name The 'F' Club only lasted 9 months from Autumn 1977 to Summer 1978, after that it was always The FAN Club... but to this day, people still refer to it as The 'F' Club.

The Fan Club at Brannigan's covered my favourite years in live music (1978 - 19820) so much was happening with an astonishing mix of new and vibrant acts including: U2, The Cure, The Psychedelic Furs, The B-52s, Joy Division, Echo & The Bunnymen, The Teardrop Explodes, Wah!Heat, The Human League, The Fall, Adam & The Ants, The Tourists, Killing Joke, Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Altered Images, Toyah, Joe Jackson, Prince Far I, Steel Pulse, Madness, The Specials, The Selecter, Bad Manners, The Thompson Twins, Crass, Throbbing Gristle, John Otway, John Cooper Clark and lots, lots more. - Hundreds of acts and gigs with very little bother. - I can understand that tensions were high between the NF, the BM and the SWP, I was concerned about the effects it had on some of my customers and did my best to keep them safe. Incidents have been exaggerated by both sides, "What did you do in the punk wars, Daddy?". - I was in the centre of it all, had threats from both sides, but came out of it unscathed, - I ran the 'F' Club because I enjoyed it, I liked the people, the music and the excitement, I hardly ever made money out of it, but loved the scene I had helped to create.

In answer to your genre comment: The bands I booked included reggae bands such as Matumbi, Black Slate, Prince Far I, Steel Pulse, The Crusaders, Tribesman, Boudica (whose Sound System/PA I hired on a regular basis) - The Ska bands I promoted at The Fan Club included: Madness, The Specials, The Selecter, The Bodysnatchers. ('Diversity' way before it became fashionable) - Electro acts included: Suicide (electro pioneer, Martin Rev and Alan Vega), Cabaret Voltaire, The Human League, Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark, The Thompson Twins, A Certain Ratio, New Order, and lots more - In fact, my booking policy was very eclectic, I picked the best emerging acts I could find from all genres. I promoted regular packages from Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield containing many bands who went on to national fame. Mod bands performed, girl bands, rock bands, poets, comedians and local heroes... it was a club for everyone. - As it happens, I promoted very few punk acts, mainly bands like 999, The Lurkers, UK Subs, the Damned and Pure Hell (black American punks). Most of the acts were classed as alternative. - The beginnings of 'Goth' were obviously there: Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, Killing Joke, Danse Society, Nightmares in Wax, March Violets, Joy Division and our regular local band, The Expelaires, whose members went off to join and help form Sisters of Mercy, The Mission, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, etc.

Alongside the F Club/FAN Club, I was booking bigger gigs at Wakefield Unity Hall: Captain Beefheart, Roy Harper, Ultravox, The Human League, Toyah, Spear of Destiny, Southern Death Cult (The Cult), Budgie, Saxon, Dexy's Midnight Runners, The Beat, Gary Glitter, The Damned. And even bigger events at Leeds Queen's Hall: Futurama 1 / 2 / 5 and at TifFANy's: The Stranglers, Squeeze, Bad Manners, Julian Cope, Killing Joke, The Birthday Party, New Order, Japan, Madness, U2. Then The Fforde Grene, The Irish Centre and The Astoria, with a few Town Hall shows. - As the tenant/promoter at The Duchess for 12 years, I put it on the touring map. After that The New Roscoe and The Brudenell. - The list goes on and is still going on.

I've written this as a record. Every detail is true - I know I was there! - I am the proper source of information. Most of the citations refer to me. I have the flyers, posters, tickets, accounts to prove it and members who can verify everything I have stated. - Maybe now you can understand why I am irritated by the piece on Wiki. About 75% is incorrect. All the information needed to correct it is in the writings above. - Please try to resolve this. Jozaka48 (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2023 (UTC) Jozaka48 (talk) 18:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I've looked at the Wiki page and some aspects have been corrected. However this section is completely WRONG! --- "In 1978, it moved once again to Roots in Chapeltown, where it hosted the Cure. During this period, performances were less frequent due Eddy Morrison's white power skinheads bringing performances by many non-nationalist groups to a halt. This led to frequent altercations between the attendees of the club and the far-right. Eventually, it relocated to the basement of Brannigan's on the corner of Call Lane and Lower Briggate, where it changed its name to Fan Club, due to a Levellers leaflet claiming the "F" stood for "fascist"." ---

So Frustrating! The Cure did not play at Roots in 1978 - they played at The FAN Club at Brannigan's on Thursday 15th March 1979 with The Teardrop Explodes supporting. - As I've stated many times: The National Front DID NOT bring any 'F' Club performances to a stop - Performances were never 'less frequent', I carried the club on as normal until the move to Brannigans. - There were never 'frequent altercations' between the attendees within the club - Eddie Morrison was not a regular at Roots - It has all been manufactured to make Eddie Morrison, a local thug, seem more important. - Where did you get this information? Was it from a 'reliable source' was it 'properly sourced'? - Doubt it very much, as IT NEVER HAPPENED! - Please cite the source. Much of what went on at that time was propaganda and hyped-up scare tactics. - To my understanding, although there may have been some beatings and scuffles away from the club, no one was ever seriously hurt around this time. Jozaka48 (talk) 18:57, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

P.S. For the sake of further accuracy, it wasn't a Levellers leaflet (as stated on the Wiki page)... the article was in a far-left magazine called, The Leveller. - I'm taking the time to write these things because I care, it's MY HISTORY. - I booked the acts, signed the contracts, and publicised the night. - I drew the flyers, the tickets, made the posters and pasted them up around Leeds. It was a large chunk of my life and it matters to me, if not to anyone else. - For the sake of historical accuracy, please ensure that these posts get to the appropriate people on Wikipedia who can actually make things happen. Jozaka48 (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

May 2023

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