Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Elaine Paige

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:05, 9 July 2008 [1].

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Elaine Paige

Self-nominator: Eagle Owl (talk)

I am nominating this article for featured article because I feel that it fulfils all of the featured article criteria and it has undergone a successful GA review. Eagle Owl (talk) 16:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• I don't know why, but I thought this article was about Ellen Page. Some work should be put into that article to become featured, too; heh.
• "under 5 ft (1.5 m) tall" – "under 5 feet (1.5 m) tall" – spell out measurements, but not in the converted units

Gary King (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm worried about accuracy here; please research the Marni Nixon, Natalie Wood vocal role in West Side Story (my info could be wrong, but it is my understanding that role was not sung by Natalie Wood, so I'm concerned about how well this article is sourced and written). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This source (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/drama/story/0,,2085160,00.html) which is an interview with Elaine Paige, quotes her response to the question What got you started? as - "Singing along with Natalie Wood on the LP of West Side Story when I was 14. It occurred to me that singing on stage wouldn't be a bad thing to do." That appears to be straight from her mouth, so if there is some historical mistake, I was totally unaware because this is what this usually very reliable source stated. I don't know what I can do, as The Guardian article quotes Paige as saying Wood ... I don't think I can change her own words? I can assure you this apparent mistake is no reflection on the overall reliablility of the article - all sources are of a very high standard. Eagle Owl (talk) 18:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I overreacted (this is one of those "everyone in the musical theatre world knows it" deals, so that kind of error is surprising in an MT article). Perhaps you can 1) use the direct quote (to show it's her error, not ours), and then 2) add a parenthetical about Marni Nixon? Or, alternately, leave out any mention of Natalie Wood, and just say she was singing along with West Side Story? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I like your thinking - I've just avoided the use of a name and just stuck with "Paige listened to the LP version of West Side Story". Eagle Owl (talk) 20:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• http://www.lupus.org.uk/article.php?i=159 while its not exactly an unreliable source, some may question the reliance on a interview from a source not usually known for interviews. I merely point this out as an informational notation.

Otherwise sources look great, and the links all checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolved, Gwernol 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Overall I think its close to featured article status, there has obviously been a lot of hard work done to this article. However, I think it needs a thorough copyedit before it is ready. Here are some examples if issues I found. I'd encourage you to get someone fresh to review the article:

• Lead image - I know how hard it is to get good free images of people, but is there really nothing better available of Paige?
• Opening sentence: "...is an English singer and actress, primarily in musical theatre" - this feels like a slightly convoluted way of saying this. Could it be reworded? Perhaps: "is an English singer and actress, best known for her work in musical theatre"?
• Lede, second paragraph "...which remains the biggest-selling record by a female duo in the Guinness Book of Records" - this needs to be rewritten since the Guinness Book of Records contains no female duos. You need to source this claim from the Guinness Book, rather than making it seem like they are recorded their duo in the book.
• Lede, second paragraph: "Paige made her Broadway debut in Sunset Boulevard in 1996 when she played the lead role of Norma Desmond, winning critical acclaim" reword to "Paige made her Broadway debut in Sunset Boulevard in 1996 playing the lead role of Norma Desmond, to critical acclaim"
• Lede, third paragraph: "Paige has been nominated for and won many awards for her theatre roles and has become known as the First Lady of British Musical Theatre" needs commas.
• Background section: "Paige now only stands at just under 5 feet (1.5 m) tall..." Now? Has she shrunk? Should this just say "Paige is just under 5 feet (1.5 m) tall..."
• Background section: "It was at 14 years of age that Paige listened to the..." better as "At 14, Paige listened to...". You should Wikilink LP.
• Background section: "Paige's musical ability was pushed by her school music teacher..." do you mean "encouraged" or "developed" rather than "pushed"?
• Background section: "Her father later suggested that she should go to drama school after recognizing her talent" this is a little confusing. When exactly did her father suggest she go to drama school? Can you be more accurate that "later"? Is is really necessary to say "after recognizing her talent"? This could be read as implying he initially didn't see her talent, is that true?
• Early Career section: "Paige's first professional appearance on stage was marked during the UK tour..." what does "marked" mean in this context? Should this read: "Paige's first professional appearance on stage was during the UK tour..."?
• Early Career section: "About five years previous to Paige's role in Evita, she had almost been cast as the lead in The Rocky Horror Show instead of Covington in 1973" - this sentence should probably come before the section on Evita, so they are in chronological order. The sentence should not contain both "about five years previous" and "in 1973" - use one or the other. It should say "About five years before Paige's role..." not "About five years previous to Paige's role..."
• Early career section: "Playing the role of Perón proved to be the defining moment in her evolution to the proclaimed title, the First Lady of British Musical Theatre". I'm not sure what "proclaimed title" means. Do you mean "acclaimed title"? I'd just drop that phrase altogether, since it seems like editorializing. This sentence isn't properly sourced from [2] - the source does not support the claim that her role of Peron was the defining moment for her.
• Early career section: "For her performance in Evita, which spanned for 20 months in total, from 1978 to 1980,[16] she won the Society of West End Theatre Award..." could be made simpler: "She won the Society of West End Theatre Award... for her performance in Evita". The length of the show should be mentioned elsewhere since the length is not connected to her winning the awards.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwernol (talk • contribs) 12:11, June 22, 2008

All done. Regarding the image, you would be surprised how few images there are out there of Paige. It's only by chance that I came across that one, so I asked someone from Wikimedia to upload this for me. The image now is actually an improvement to how it originally looked as I had to crop it. Thanks for you comments, the only thing is I don't know who I can ask to copyedit the article. Eagle Owl (talk) 13:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe you about the image, its surprisingly hard to find good, free images of living people for use on Wikipedia. Personally I think the one you have is acceptable, though a better one would be an improvement. Your first port of call for a volunteer to help with copy editing would probably be Wikipedia:WikiProject Musical Theatre. Gwernol 13:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I've now put in a request on the Wikiproject talk page. Thanks. Eagle Owl (talk) 16:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you pinged Gwernol to revisit the oppose? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep, message left on talk page on 26 June [3]. Eagle Owl (talk) 10:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I did some copyediting in the first few paragraphs. There is a lot of fluffy information in this article taken from interviews. For example, the article says that Dustin Hoffman asked her not to quit theatre, but the information is just something that SHE told an interviewer, so it is not reliable in an encyclopedic sense, and it is trivial and not really encylopedic information. I took out another statement that said that Paige (told somone that she) had some trouble handling her fame: did she go to rehab, etc? If not, this seems true of most celebrities. The nominators should go through the article and try for a more formal, "encyclopedic" tone. Any references that do not contribute encylopedic information, but are just lifestyle type interviews should be eliminated. Also, the list of stage performances does not exactly match the mentions of the stage performances in the narration. This must be corrected. Also, you don't need more than one source to show that Paige played a certain role in a certain show or film. Try to use only the most important, best quality references to verify each claim in the article. I'll try to come back to this article another time to continue. Good luck in your efforts to improve the article to FA quality. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help and comments. I've gone through the article and removed over-citation and some un-needed information and I agree with everything you say, though I cannot find where the stage list does not match up with the narration. Eagle Owl (talk) 20:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have now been through the entire article and have removed what I thought was the most fluffy trivia, as well as copy editing the prose. The article is enjoyable to read and gives a good sense of Paige. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your wonderfully thorough copy edit - thanks to you the prose has improved hugely! Your work on the article is very much appreciated. Thanks. Eagle Owl (talk) 16:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I can say that I have addressed all of the queries raised. The article has had two good copy edits, so now it makes much better reading. Eagle Owl (talk) 19:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Support - Very well written and extremely well referenced to reliable sources. Well done! — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 14:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Support with comments: This article has come a long way from when I glanced at it during its GA-nom. I quite enjoyed learning about Paige's life and career, especially since I always preferred her performance in Cats to that of Betty Buckley's. :) Some comments/suggestions pertaining to the lead:

• I think that her place of origin (Barnet, North London) should be mentioned in the lead. Perhaps as "Born in Barnet, North London, Paige attended the Aida Foster stage school..."?
• Paige has been nominated for five Laurence Olivier Awards and won many other awards for her theatre roles and has been called the First Lady of British Musical Theatre. This is a run-on sentence. How about, "In addition to being nominated for five Laurence Olivier Awards, Paige has won many other awards for her theatre roles and has been called..."?
• She has released 20 solo albums, of which eight were consecutively certified gold and another four multi-platinum, and she has been featured on seven cast albums. Paige has sung in concert across the world, and she also hosts her own show on BBC Radio 2. This is also clunky with so many "and"s. Perhaps "Paige has released 20 solo albums, of which eight were consecutively certified gold and another four multi-platinum. She has sung in concert across the world and is also featured on seven cast albums. Since 2004 she has hosted her own show on BBC Radio 2 called..."?

Great work, I honestly enjoyed reading it. I also made some minor adjustments to comma placement. María (habla conmigo) 16:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

All suggested changes done. Many thanks for your time and comments. Eagle Owl (talk) 18:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Eagle Owl, can you ping Gwernol again? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Support - I think we're there. I made a few minor prose improvements, but overall this article looks to be in good shape. Congratulations. Gwernol 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your time. Eagle Owl (talk) 14:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.