Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fedor Emelianenko/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Gimmetrow 14:18, 28 February 2009 [1].

Fedor Emelianenko[edit]

Nominator(s): User:2008Olympian (talk)

Perhaps the most-edited MMA article. The article seems to be well-written, comprehensive, and factually accurate with a full a "References" section. The article is neutral, especially for a sports biography, and has been quite stable for months.

It has a lead of appropriate size, and the article is of appropriate structure. The citations seem to be flawless. It uses images well, including one video from the commons. Although long, it does not go into unnecessary detail, some of the length is due to the MMA record box, standard for MMA biographies.--2008Olympianchitchat 08:48, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

This is the largest website devoted to MMA. It is the exclusive content MMA content provider for ESPN.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is the second-largest MMA content provider. Does substantial reporting for CNN, Sports Illustrated, and Yahoo!. See Businessweek profile], and examples of content provided on major websites: SI.com and Yahoo.com2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Might have to go. It's big in Europe, but not well-established.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.efedor.ru/bio/index_eng.shtml (Lacks a publisher and looks like the subject's own website? If it is, it's a primary source and should be used very carefully.) It's also used for reprints of other articles, which has two problems, one, since it appears to be his site, how do we know the reprints are reported accurately? And two, do they have permission to host reprints of copyrighted work? All the articles that are reprints from this site need to state that they are reprinted on this site and give the correct original publication information, IF the above concerns are resolved.
It is his website.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably won't cut it.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is the official site for Pride FC, as a primary its use is acceptable but limited.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--See comment below.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Probably won't cut it.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like the link its gone, but F4W/Wrestling Observer is written by Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez. It was previously brought up at Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Lockdown_(2008)/archive1. --aktsu (t / c) 19:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably won't cut it.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably won't cut it.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably won't cut it.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably won't cut it.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Primary source for M1 Global, Fedor's team.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 3 references a wikipedia page, which is not a reliable source.
Done Changed to an outside reference.--2008Olympianchitchat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 18 (I am neither...) has no publisher.
  • Current ref 15 is a forum post in Russian... what makes it reliable?
  • Current ref 28 has a formatting glitch.
  • A number of your website references need to have publishers listed for them. Please double check that they all have a publisher listed.
We have been using the "work=" field instead of "publisher=" Does it make a difference? We can change them over if it does.--2008Olympianchitchat 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done I changed the fields to publisher.--2008Olympianchitchat 03:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I watch mixed martial arts from time to time, and I've seen Fedor on some highlight shows. To put it simply, he is the man. I have some initial thoughts after reading the opening few sections, which are listed below.

  • In the first sentence, move the reference outside the parenthesis.

Done Reference moved entirely.--2008Olympianchitchat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • This long quote from Fedor in the lead is weird. It doesn't summarize the article at all, and I'd rather see something on his fighting style, which is discussed in detail later.

Done Long quote removed.--2008Olympianchitchat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Mixed martial arts background and training regimen: Watch for repetition like the following: "and later and his current coach, Vladimir Mihailovich Voronov. Voronov...".

Done Fixed.--2008Olympianchitchat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Emelianenko also runs twice a day every day..." Could be "twice daily" or similar, to get rid of a redundancy.

Done Fixed by aktsu, see note below.

  • "and added a Muay Thai coach, Ruslan Nagnibeda". This is his second mention in two paragraphs, so try to account for that, perhaps by just giving his last name.

Done Fixed.--2008Olympianchitchat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Fedor's (change to last name for formality) first loss in Sambo in eight years came at the Combat Sambo World Championships St. Petersburg, Russia". Is "in" missing before the city, or is that the full name of the event?

Done Fixed by aktsu, see note below.

  • Another hyphen for "23-year old".

Done Fixed by aktsu, see note below.

  • Club affiliation: Place initials in parenthesis after first use of Russian Top Team, because initials are used later.

Done Fixed by aktsu, see note below.

  • "with Fedor alleging he was deceived by Pogodin." This is a noun plus -ing. Need to find a way to get the -ing out of there.

Done Fixed.--2008Olympianchitchat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hyphen for "St. Petersburg based". While here, why not remove the link, since one is in the last section?

Done Fixed.--2008Olympianchitchat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC) I particularly like the fact that this has a video. That's pretty rare at FAC, at least among sportsman profiles; this is the first I've seen with a video. The prose looks pretty good so far, with a few minor issues. The big hurdle figures to be the sourcing, as many of the MMA sites are fairly underground, like the sport was until a few years ago. Even today, most of the mainstream attention goes to the Ultimate Fighting Championship, and I'm not sure how much the major media sites will have on Fedor, who has never fought in the UFC. Anyway, take care of these and I'll try to come back, though I'm developing a massive review backlog at the moment. Giants2008 (17-14) 04:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Think I got everything except the second, third and second-to-last point. --aktsu (t / c) 19:05, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a couple of comments:

  • Ivan's Blog can be considered reliable, as it's run by Ivan Trembow (a sportswriter for MMA Weekly, CNN/SI, among other outlets). Most of the stories there are also copies of archived content at MMA Weekly, which are I believe pay-access only now.
  • The Wrestling Observer is also reliable, as is most stuff by Dave Meltzer. Reference #50 has a broken link though, so somebody with the print issue needs to verify it.
  • A lot of stuff that cites primary sources needs to be recited or removed. The same thing goes for quotes in the references (even though I'm the one who added them all ). Third-party sources shouldn't be hard to find for the statements which are currently cited to quotes, since none of them are particularly contentious.
  • There's some issues with weasel wording ("Emelianenko was expected to make quick work of Fujita") and undue weight (the bit about the interview in the lead) that needs to be pruned down - I'll try my hand at this.
  • IMHO, the use of |work= in the citing templates is bizarre, especially for web sources; I've never seen that on any other article.
done Changed those fields to publisher instead.--2008Olympianchitchat 03:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Short paragraphs need to be expanded or integrated somewhere else. The inverted-pyramid style is inappropriate, and it's something which I've seen quite a few MMA articles suffer from. The prose could use servicing in the later part of the bio section.
  • There was an article in SI about Emelianenko's early career and training which might be useful in helping to fill out the first few sections about the bio.
  • Significant and notable criticism for fighting weak opponents and putting in poor performances is not included (example: [2]).
  • Can a passing wikignome please reformat my comments so they reflect the current FAC standards? I haven't been here in a couple years. :)

— east718 | talk | 00:52, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - not a subject I am familiar with which probably helps in reviewing it (note I'm reviewing this version from 03:47, 20 February 2009) - Just looking at the flow and text rather than the comprehensiveness.

  • The lead section has citations which usually indicate that there are facts there that are not in the rest of the article. I can see that, for instance, the romanized version of his name at least is not mentioned later. Citations and associated information should be incorporated into the main text.

Done All citations removed from lead and into the main text. The lead is now short, which leads me to work on the next item.--2008Olympianchitchat 05:57, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The lead as it stands does not summarize the article. It mentions little from the biographical and other sections. It needs to be a summary of the entire article, rather than an introductory section.
  • The sentence beginning "In <year/date> x happened" is used too frequently and it makes some sections read like a dot-point listing (like the one I'm writing). Consider the following type of changes (note that I've also reworded parts)
—Emelianenko finished high school in 1991 and graduated with honors from a professional trade school in 1994. From 1995 until 1997, he served in the Russian Army as a military firefighter. In 1999, he married his wife Oksana, and their first daughter Masha was born in the same year. In 2006, Emelianenko broke up with his wife and started a new family with his girlfriend Marina. On December 29, 2007, his second daughter Vasilisa was born. In his spare time, he likes to read, listen to music, and draw.
→Emelianenko finished high school in 1991 and graduated with honors from a professional trade school three years later. He joined the Russian Army in 1995 and worked as a military firefighter until 1997. He married Oksana in 1999 and their daughter Masha was born in the same year. His marriage ended in 2006 and he began a new family with girlfriend Marina and his second daughter Vasilisa was born on December 29, 2007. In his spare time, Emelianenko likes to read, listen to music, and draw.
  • Avoid fast dating statements "brother Ivan is currently in training" "and later under his current coach" - better to note when this is current as of.
  • The text needs editing for clarity and redundancy eg:
—However, he has specified in a 2005 interview that this is incorrect, and his training in the army was limited to running and strength training in a makeshift gym he put together himself
→He corrected this during a 2005 interview, stating that his army training was limited to running, and strength training in a makeshift gym he assembled.
—Since the fight was in a tournament format, a winner and loser was required as draws or no contests could not be awarded. Since Emelianenko could not advance due to his injury, Kohsaka moved on (the match would have been a no contest or disqualification victory for Emelianenko otherwise).
→ Emelianenko's injury prevented his advancing and Kohsaka was awarded the win. Tournament rules required a clear winner and prevented what would otherwise have been a no contest or disqualification victory for Emelianenko.
—Four months later at Total Elimination 2004, he met Pride 2000 Grand Prix winner and former UFC heavyweight champion Mark Coleman for the first time in the ring and submitted him with an armbar at 2:11 of the first round to advance in the 2004 heavyweight Grand Prix.
→At Total Elimination 2004 four months later he fought Mark Coleman for the first time. Coleman was the Pride 2000 Grand Prix winner and a former UFC heavyweight champion. Emelianenko won with a submission by Coleman to an armbar 2 minutes 11 seconds into the first round and consequently advanced to the 2004 heavyweight Grand Prix.
  • "In 1997, Emelianenko received the official certification of a "Master of Sports" in Sambo and Judo and became part of the Russian national team" - does this mean that the "Master of Sports" lead to the team entry or simply that they happened in the same year (text is unclear).

All up a good article about an interesting subject, but there is quite a bit of text work needed before it's ready for the star- Peripitus (Talk) 05:38, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Excessive flag usage in the 'Mixed martial arts record' section does not meet Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons), in addition to the lack of verifiability of what the flags mean and why they are necessary in the article at all. — Moe ε 18:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done:They're not needed. The tables have been successfully de-flagged. Gromlakh (talk) 19:44, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The flags are present in the fight record of all MMA fighters pages, and have for a long time. While I personally agree with the removal, there doesn't seem to be a consensus to remove at least within the MMA-wikiproject. See this discussion at WT:MMA. --aktsu (t / c) 19:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First, there is no verifiability and no set reason as to the usefulness that the flags are there. Second, the discussion at WT:MAA is flawed, as there are biased opinions of mixed martial arts editors instead of unbiased Wikipedia editors. Me, Gromlackh and even yourself said they should be removed. If consensus is formed here to remove it by those who are neutral in a discussion of promoting a featured article, then a no consensus keep at a biased WP:MMA is trumped. — Moe ε 21:58, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. --aktsu (t / c) 22:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have invited Ealdgyth, Giants2008, east718 and Peripitus back to the discussion and asked them to comment on this as an unbiased party in the use of the icons in the hope that consensus is formed. — Moe ε 22:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really think the flags are needed. Remember, consensus Wiki-wide should always trump a project's consensus. What is needed in the table, however, are en dashes in the record column and a reference for the info (hint, hint). Giants2008 (17-14) 02:24, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Under EL: Professional MMA record for Fedor Emelianenko from Sherdog. Will fix the dashes. --aktsu (t / c) 02:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Moe's post here is blatant forum shopping. He knows full well that There is a discussion underway at the icons talk page. That is the proper forum for this discussion, not here on this feature-article discussion. To come here and claim a violation of the guideline when that is under dispute elsewhere is disingenuous at best, outright deceitful at worst. If consensus there is to remove the flags, then this article should follow. I fail to see how there is any bias on flags just because an editor is on the MMA project.
Moe has been vocal in his opposition to the use of flags in that discussion; he argued that the use of flags was why the project had no higher rate of good and feature articles than the encyclopedia as a whole. I think that the use of flags is a red herring as to the quality of this or any other article, but to argue that causality and then attempt to sabotage a feature-article candidacy in an attempt to make it come true is reprehensible. Whether they are necessary or in line with the recommended guideline should be discussed there, not here. That is not a discussion on the WP:MMA talk page, but at the MOS:FLAGS talk page. I will point out that the guideline gives only three instances in its "Appropriate Use" section, and one of them states that "They are useful in articles about international sporting events." MMA events bring competitors from all over the world to compete, and their national flags are shown on each broadcast.--2008Olympianchitchat 03:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Undeniably, if consensus here is to fail the article of FA status because of flag icons, then WP:MMA has no other choice other than to reform in a different direction with the icons, because as it stands everyone but you has said they should probably be removed. Unless you have a reliable source, 2008Olympian, that verifies a flags usage with these fighters and that it proves that the flags are not being just used for decoration, then they should be removed. — Moe ε 03:45, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My response is located where this debate belongs.--2008Olympianchitchat 04:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My long-winded response is over at WT:MMA. Also, just to clarify, the flags have not always been in MMA articles. When I took my Wikibreak last year, there were actually quite a few articles where many of us had successfully cleaned out all/most of the flags and it wasn't much of an issue. They seem to have returned with a vengeance in my absence. Gromlakh (talk) 06:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the removal of the flags has stuck, as it should. I also agree with Gromlakh that they have popped up in recent months, and my impression is that the usual high-volume editors of MMA articles aren't adding them. There is something to be said about combat fatigue when you have an endless stream of anonymous/new users adding flags, future matches in record histories, etc. — east718 | talk | 05:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Please do not let this FAC devolve into sniping over flags. If there is conflict at MMA over its flags guideline, then try to resolve it there, please. BuddingJournalist 04:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comments
  • Just a note that the flags in the current version I can see [3] appear appear to be a reasonable, attractive usage that I have no issue with.
  • There is no mention of what Judo Dan rank he has reached
  • I think that strong attention to the article's balance is required. This is supposed to be a biography but spends little text on the man compared to that on the fights.
  • as stated above in my other comments I think that the text needs a lot of work to meet the FA standard, though it is a fair way along - Peripitus (Talk) 05:44, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As of this version, there's still numerous problems with sources:

  • 13, 26, 31, and 38 are dead links.
  • 8, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 25, 26, 28, 38, 39, and 45 are either primary sources or interviews. The usage of 13b, 20, 25, 28, and 45 are probably acceptable though, if no secondary sources can be found to replace them.
  • The original source in 9, 12, and 14 should be tracked down.
  • There's no evidence that 23 and 47 are reliable.
  • The |publisher=/|work= citing format is inconsistent. For example, "The New York Times Company" should be "The New York Times," and "Sports.yahoo.com" should be "Yahoo! Sports." This isn't a problem that's isolated to just a few refs.

Otherwise, I concur with Peripitus: the prose definitely needs paring down and checked for flow. — east718 | talk | 05:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the Done templates above. They are discouraged because they interfere with the FAC archives and slow loading times. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:24, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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