Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fremantle Prison/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 07:29, 15 August 2015 [1].

Fremantle Prison[edit]

Nominator(s): Evad37 [talk] 04:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the World Heritage listed former Australian prison – built by convicts, for convicts, between 1851 and 1859, and used as a prison until 1991. The previous FAC (which included an image review from Nikkimaria) was closed as "not enough commentary to come close to consensus to promote, plus it sounds like restructuring may be in order ... and ask that further improvements be made outside the FAC process". Restructuring/improvements during and slightly after that FAC (mostly trimming WP:SUMMARYSTYLE summaries) has seen the article prose size reduced from 64 kB to just under 50k. Whether or how to mention the "Routine", "Diet", and "Punishment" sections in the lead was an issue awaiting consensus from the previous FAC – I have copied the relevant comments below (note that I have copyedited and trimmed the lead since then [2]). As before, I look forward to your comments, and hope to eventually bring the whole set of Fremantle Prison articles to good or featured topic status. - Evad37 [talk] 04:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Wikiprojects notified [3][4][5][6] - Evad37 [talk] 15:13, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fremantle Prison/archive2:

...and few changes to mark the passing of time. - I don't know what this means (actually I think I'd remove this sentence as obvious and nonspecific to Freo prison really)
Meals were an important part of the day, breaking up the monotony, eaten in the cells, throughout the operational life of the prison. - I think I'd remove this as obvious and nonspecific to Freo prison really
Punishments for misbehaviour at various points in the prison's history included flogging, solitary confinement, a restricted diet of bread and water, time in irons, lengthening of a sentence, and restriction from visitors or entertainment. - again...don't these happen at all prisons? I'd ditch it....
The above three sentences are meant to summarise the "Routine", "Diet", and "Punishment" sections of the articles. They might be obvious and nonspecfic, but I feel something is needed in the lead (and per MOS:INTRO, the relative emphasis of content should be the same in the lead and the body of the article). - Evad37 [talk] 07:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not concerned about whether these particular sentences are kept or removed, just that the topics should be mentioned in some form in the lead. - Evad37 [talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
sigh - yeah I see your point but I don't think it's essential, especially when the article is so big. Happy to leave it and see what the consensus is when more folks comment here. Cas Liber talk · contribs) 03:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - tightened up since last I read it. Comes in at 49nb readable prose size, just under the size we'd really think about splitting it. Anyway, it's comprehensive and I find the prose engaging with no clangers outstanding. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I read this since I've actually been there and Fremantle was my favourite bit of WA. Like Cas, I can see much wrong with this and it's not too long. Good work Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:57, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks Jimfbleak... assuming you meant "can't see much wrong", not "can see much wrong" ;) - Evad37 [talk] 11:27, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
mea culpa ): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Very interesting. A few points. Due to lack of time, I am going to have to do this over the next few days.
Lede
  • It may not be obvious to non-Commonwealth people that The Terrace is a street. Could this be gracefully signaled in some way, perhaps by saying its address is The Terrace?
It probably isn't significant enough for the lead, so I've moved it to the infobox, where it is labelled as Street address. I also added the other streets bounding the site to the Layout section, which makes it more obvious that The Terrace is a street. - Evad37 [talk] 03:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • " responsible for the entire convict or prison system, " In Western Australia, or just the Fremantle/Perth area?
Added "in Western Australia" - Evad37 [talk] 03:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "legal place of execution" consider "lawful" for "legal", it may resonate more (the traditional sentence of death sometimes directed that the prisoner be taken to "and thence to a place of lawful execution" I believe. Not sure about Australia.
Done for now. (I don't really have a strong opinion either way, but we'll see if any other reviewers think any differently.) - Evad37 [talk] 03:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Layout
  • Am I correct that the present tense is used for features still extant, and the past for those no longer there?
It is a bit difficult with the tenses, in that the physical buildings still exist, but not their functions – e.g. "there is a hospital" wouldn't actually be correct, as while the building is still extant, it is no longer a hospital. Anyway, I've adjusted the tenses, so hopefully the text conveys it a bit better. - Evad37 [talk] 03:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last sentence needs sourcing.
Done - Evad37 [talk] 03:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Got to go, more later.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:30, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for reviewing - Evad37 [talk] 03:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I will be away on holiday from 28 June until 6 July, and may not be able to respond comments until afterwards. - Evad37 [talk] 01:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment In general, is quite good but could benefit by some judicious pruning to avoid repetitions, the ones I've caught, I've laid out below, plus other comments.
Layout
  • "Inside the walls, the parade ground is located east of the gatehouse, in between it and the Main Cell Block[1] at the centre of the site,[2] which contains two chapels" This is getting too complicated
Adjusted - Evad37 [talk] 02:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The purpose of the tunnels might perhaps be stated on first mention lest we assume The Great Escape.
Done - Evad37 [talk] 02:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Buildings
  • "and later part of the prison administration" This says to me that the building was part of the administration, as though it were an officer. Perhaps it is different in Australian English.
Adjusted to "later used by the prison administration" - Evad37 [talk] 02:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It strikes me that the image of the restored gatehouse might be better placed in the gatehouse subsection. It would crowd a bit, but I think you could rearrange the subsections without any real problems. They don't seem to require a particular order.
I actually have the order matched to the description in the Layout section. And I tried to make it a somewhat logical progression from outside (houses and cottages) through the gatehouse to the Main Cell Block, then the other cell blocks, and then the rest of the buildings - Evad37 [talk] 02:20, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""separate system", whereby prisoners were completely isolated for the first three months of their sentence. A panopticon" There may be suitable links for this system and so forth which I think originated at Eastern State Penitentiary. (I'm doing this offline)
Linked to separate system - Evad37 [talk] 01:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and for those condemned to death" Civilian military or both? If just military, then this seems unnecessary though dramatic.
Removed as unnecessary - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "eventually cleared" The "eventually" seems unneeded.
Removed - Evad37 [talk] 01:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "had been refurbished" Isn't "was refurbished" adequate?
Not really, the first part of that sentence is The tunnels were re-opened in mid-2005, (so it would have to be "were" not "was", and then there would be two "were"s in the sentence - Evad37 [talk] 01:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
History
  • "looked for a site ... site" one or the other should go
Adjusted - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The first priority was the construction of accommodation for Henderson and the prison warders to relieve the expense of paying for private lodging.[22]:3 The prison walls were constructed between 1853 and 1855," I would say that the lodgings for Henderson et al. were actually built, lest a contradiction be seen here.
Adjusted to "...built to relieve..." - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Due to the great expense of sending these convicts back to Britain, the authorities there negotiated with the colonial government to transfer control of the convicts, as well as the prison complex" It is, I think, implied that Britain wanted to relinquish jurisdiction over the convicts, of which there were few remaining, but it might help to state it. Otherwise all this comes a bit out of the blue. See note re overuse of "convict", below.
Adjusted - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first sentence of the fourth paragraph of 19th century contains the word "convict" three times, though once as part of a capitalised term. Possibly one of the three could be gotten rid of. The third sentence contains that word twice, and one might be lost.
Adjusted - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a Labor government". Possibly pipe to the premier in question, or the article if any about his government.
Linked to Scaddan Ministry - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A hostel providing short-stay accommodation" both sexes? And is this a youth hostel or some other sort of arrangement?
Added a link to hostel. Sources don't mention any restrictions on gender or age, or that its anything other than a standard hostel. - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Staff etc.
  • "By the 1940s, the role of superintendent became a position filled through internal promotions" as opposed to?
As opposed to appointment of people from outside the system. It probably made more sense before I had to split content off to a sub-article, and isn't that important, so I've cut out that sentence. - Evad37 [talk] 05:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • " and their lives were just as regimented as the prisoners.[38]:17–24 In the 1890s warders still had "little more freedom than the prisoners in their charge",[23]:65 " Length might be cut by reducing duplicative prose like this.
Trimmed the quotation - Evad37 [talk] 08:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The warder's role became clearly defined in 1902, having previously been unwritten and poorly known due to a high turnover rate." I'm sure they had some idea why they were there.
Adjusted to be clearer: "Due to a high turnover rate, many had little knowledge of either official policies or unofficial rules and traditions" - Evad37 [talk] 08:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The number of prisoners in 1897 was 379, and Inspector of Prisons James Roe viewed the prison as "inconveniently full"." prison, prison, prison
Replaced a few different instances in this paragraph and the next - Evad37 [talk] 08:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Possibly the middle recitation of the routine can be placed in a quote box.
I tried it [7], but it doesn't look good because the image overlaps the quote box - Evad37 [talk] 08:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "1890s food was still very limited in diversity" possibly "variety" for "diversity"?
Done - Evad37 [talk] 08:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "actually recommended". The word "actually" strikes me as a bit POV.
Removed - Evad37 [talk] 08:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Labour
  • "jetties". A word used twice in this article, with somewhat different meanings.
Not really - per jetty, "a structure that projects from the land out into water". The usage here isn't expanded on at all in the source, but in the tunnels paragraph earlier on, one of the jetties was the South Jetty (see in background of picture here [8]) - Evad37 [talk] 10:17, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the rise of trade unions that saw such labour as a threat to the free market," very high minded of them, when what I was thinking they'd object to is that if the government is getting stonemasonry for free, they don't want to hire members of the WA Industrial Brotherhood of Stonecutters (or whatever). This does read a little POV ...
Oops, that was meant to be free labour, not free market... if you still think that's too POV then I can attribute it in-text to the author of the source - Evad37 [talk] 13:43, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "water pump" You indicated earlier that a steam pump was completed in 1896 and relieved the prisoners of this labour.
As mentioned in the previous sentence, this was one of the "activities with no practical value other than keeping them occupied" - Evad37 [talk] 13:43, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Punishments
  • I thought the water pump was something they did whilst not playing draughts?
Different era. In the late 1890s they were playing draughts, but in the convict era (mentioned at start of this paragraph) it was hard work - Evad37 [talk] 13:43, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would mention earlier in this section that the flogging was with the cat o' nine tails to consolidate the matter, and later you need only mention that the cat (and flogging I assume?) was abolished.
I don't think we can assume that flogging was only done with the cat o' nine tails – especially since the cat. was abolished in the 1910s but flogging continued until the 1940s - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and were hanged by falling through the opening trap door" I'm not sure "falling" fits the prose here, as this is being done to them, whereas falling is done by someone, an active noun in a passive phrase. Dropping?
Dropping works - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Irish Fenian John Boyle O'Reilly in 1869 and six more Fenians in 1876," I would omit "Irish Fenian" and change "more" to "other". I don't think any information is lost. "Irish", at least by ancestry, is implied by his name (so shoot me for stereotyping!) and his allegiance. I'm not sure what the "Irish" was getting at anyway. Didn't Irish and Australians have the same nationality in 1869?
Adjusted. Irish was just what was in the source. - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It strikes me that these individuals stories of escapees is a place where you might consider shortening. The first one probably can stand more or less as is, but the Fenians story mostly doesn't involve the prison and perhaps you can look to shorten a bit.
Shortened - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "29 April 1875 sailed from New Bedford, Massachusetts on a secret rescue mission. Coordinating with local Fenian agents, the escape was arranged for 17 April, when" Ah, they lost 12 days at the International Date Line, then.
Added the year: 17 April 1876
  • "an international diplomatic incident," I think "international" is implied.
Removed - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a heck of a story. But I recommend a significant cutback. It has its own article.
I have cut down by about a quarter, but its hard to cut much more while still giving the context of the Fenians in Fremantle Prison, the details of the coordinated escape, and the immediate aftermath at sea (Georgette allowing Catalpa to flee). - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the prisoners to riot, breaking fittings, injuring three prison officers, three prisoners" They injured themselves? If the prisoners were responsible for the riot, that doesn't make them self-injurious thereby.
Adjusted - those were injuries sustained during the riot - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "without funding from the state government" possibly pipe here to the premier in question or the article on his government if any.
Done - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is the damage from the 1968 riot priced in $ and the 1988 riot in A$? (with link, too, to the OzBuck)
Changed 1988 to unlinked $ - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understood there was to be no retribution, yet 33 on trial? Also, "extended sentences" is ambiguous. It could mean lengthened or lengthy.
As far as I can tell, they seemed to have been given a guarantee of no retributions, but later put on trial anayway (but to explicitly say so in the article would probably be OR). And I changed "extended" to "lengthened". - Evad37 [talk] 09:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did the fire hasten the closing? If so, this should be mentioned above in the history.
I haven't found any sources which make such a connection - Evad37 [talk] 10:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Conservation
  • " eleven convict areas to become World Heritage Sites.[66] Five years later, the prison was one of eleven former convict sites" The dual mention of the eleven convict areas/sites can surely be consolidated.
Adjusted - Evad37 [talk] 10:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "focused historical interpretation and conservation efforts on the prison's convict era, at the expense of its more recent history. These included its use as an internment centre" After some thought and effort, I determined that "these" referred to "recent history", rather than "convict era". Neither is a plural noun, even given the laxities of Commonwealth English in the area. (as an aside, as Western Australia's convict era started relatively late, it might be worth giving a range of dates early on in the article).
Adjusted it so the first sentence ends at "convict era" – is this better? And added "(1850 – 1886)" to the first use of convict era - Evad37 [talk] 10:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • We're rather clearly getting, since we are told at least three times (counting the lede) that the convict era is prioritised. Could we get an explanation on why this is so for us non-Ozzians? (I have a fair idea but thousands may not). I imagine that were it not for the convicts, WH status would not be in the cards? Say if the identical prison had been built at the identical time in Adelaide ...
That is the implication... but the sources don't actually state it. Joining the dots ourselves when others haven't done so is WP:OR. I could alter that paragraph to begin The process of obtaining World Heritage listing, as one of the convict sites, focused ..., but this seem repetitive of the previous paragraph. - Evad37 [talk] 02:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The description of how World Heritage status seems very repetitive in the convicts being the priority, as well. It seems to me that this can be boiled down quite a ways by mentioning that the convict era was prioritised in A, B, and C, and finally as implemented. Or some such.
I've tried to simplify the paragraph and make it less repetitive - Evad37 [talk] 02:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Restoration: the left-justified image (if you choose to keep it here) is interfering with the section header right below in my browser. Put a {{clear}} template or similar.
I moved it slightly further up and put it on the right - Evad37 [talk] 02:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Tourism
  • "Dennis (NOZ) Nozworthy, who stated that he found art on death row." Since there is no link, the obvious question (was he executed?) somewhat leaves us hanging...
Added a footnote - Evad37 [talk] 02:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well done otherwise, looking forward to supporting.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments, I'll be working through them over the next couple of days. I've done a couple of the easy fixes as noted above, some of the others I may need to double check what the sources say - Evad37 [talk] 01:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: I have finished responding to your comments above, if you would like to another look. Thanks again, - Evad37 [talk] 02:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support well done--Wehwalt (talk) 03:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image Review[edit]

All others are fine. These should be fixed, but I don't think they're blockers. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Adam Cuerden: I'm not sure what you want fixed for File:EdmundHenderson.jpg, but I've done the other three - Evad37 [talk] 02:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Henderson one was more of a note, really. It's an odd image, and, as an illustration, is theoretically identifiable with more precision, but as the museum can't identify it - and they have the most resources in that line, it's fine for here.
One other thought: Consider whether File:Fremantle Prison 1909 Superintendent W. A. George.jpg gives enough encyclopædic value to mitigate its terrible quality.
These minor quibbles aside, this is Fully cleared for promotion on the image front Adam Cuerden (talk) 05:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I removed File:Fremantle Prison 1909 Superintendent W. A. George.jpg, it's not so relevant since the section content was trimmed down - Evad37 [talk] 02:53, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

  • Source review for formatting and reliability still required unless I missed it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • No deadlinks, and formatting of the citations looks good.
  • Fn 13 & 56: You don't have to type "First published" in the "origyear" field, but if you want to leave it, that's OK, too. Doesn't hurt.
  • Your text is cited sufficiently -- I didn't see anything that need a cite but didn't have one.
  • Did some spotchecks in the Megahey thesis and the Dept. of Finance websites. All checks out. --Coemgenus (talk) 22:00, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. I prefer having "First published" as it makes it more understandable to readers not familiar with the citation style, and it is actually recommended in the template documentation. - Evad37 [talk] 02:53, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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