Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Olivia Manning/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [1].

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Olivia Manning

Olivia Manning (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): Slp1 (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

• Featured article candidates/Olivia Manning/archive1

I have loved reading and rereading Manning's Fortunes of war novel sequence, and knew that it was based on the author's real life experiences during the Second World War. Intrigued, I have been working slowly to research and expand the article. Manning herself proved to be crabbier and generally more difficult than her fictional counterpart, but that's real life for you. The article has been greatly improved following the suggestions made at Maria's Good article review, Finetooth's peer review, and a copyedit by User:PiCo. Further comments and suggestions are welcomed! Slp1 (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 12:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support. A comprehensive, balanced and well-referenced article. I mention in passing that the OED insists on a capital in anti-Semitic. - Tim riley (talk) 06:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you. I've changed the capitalization of anti-semitic etc.--Slp1 (talk) 16:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• Review by Charles Edward
• General
  • "Manning's youth was divided between Portsmouth and Ireland, giving her an "Anglo-Irish sense of belonging to nowhere".", is this quote from her directly? It should probably be attributed. Its grammar does not flow well with the leading part of the sentence. I'd suggest a rephrasing or omitting "to" from the quote.

• I've attributed it in the lead and fixed up the typo.

• • "Indeed, when financial circumstances forced Manning to leave", should probably drop "indeed".

• If you don't mind, I'd rather leave it, as it makes the link to her mother's advice.

• • Internal link "typist"?

• done

• • "Reggie was relentlessly gregarious, and throughout his life, his warmth, wit and friendliness earned him many friends and drinking companions.", that is an opinion, it should probably be attributed.

• It is an opinion, but it seems to be everybody's opinion, and as such I'd be sorry to attribute to only one person. Reggie seems universally acknowledged to be quite the character. See [2]; [3], [4], and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography "Large, ebullient, and gregarious, Smith was dispassionately portrayed by Olivia Manning as Guy Pringle.... Guy Pringle in these volumes is a big-hearted Marxist, just as those who knew and worked with Reggie Smith remember him...His extreme friendliness and wit, his warmth and exuberance of character, earned him an enormous circle of friends.."

• • Internal link "Egypt", "Greece", "British Council", "Cario", "Communist", etc. Lots of terms that could use links throughout.

• The first three were already linked on first mention. I've done the last two and will check to see if there are any other useful links to add.

• • "She was also constantly anxious about illness, and was indeed frequently unwell.", unneeded "indeed"

• Once again I'd prefer to keep this one, so as to make the link with her anxiety of illness.

• • "Indeed, Reggie was soon transferred away", should probably drop "indeed"

• I've dropped this one as you suggest.

• • "Manning described the books as long chapters of an autobiography, and indeed early versions were written in the first person.", hmmm another "indeed" :) You should probably scan throughout to make sure all other uses of "indeed" are useful

• Indeed, it looks like we have different views on on the use of "indeed". ;-) I've removed this and another one I found.

• • If "Jacob Morrow" was an early pen name, a redirect by that title to this article would be appropriate. It may also be worth mentioning in the lead, I leave that to your discretion

• I'll certainly make the redirect, thanks for the suggestion, but have not added it to the lead. I think they were such minor novels, ones that she didn't admit to for many years, that it would be overkill to add them.

• • Who was her publisher(s)? There are a few mentions of them, but their name is never given, unless I missed it somehow. That should definitely be added. If there were more than one, the publisher should probably also be listed in the list of works.

• She started, prewar, with Jonathan Cape, which is mentioned. Post war she was with Heinemann, and moved post 1974 to Weidenfeld. I've added this. I'd rather not add the publishers to the list... what with hardcover/paperbook, UK/US publishers and name changes/takeover of the publishers' etc I think it would become very complicated.

• • Are there an estimate or hard number on the amount of book she sold, or what her best selling books was? That could be useful to bring out and help establish the popularity of her works.

• Unfortunately, I can't find any very specific information about this in the sources. Good idea though.

• MOS
  • The references section should follow the notes section; not precede it

• Done. Thanks!

• • At 53,000 characters, the article is at the upper limit of the recommended size of an article according to WP:LENGTH. You may consider scaling it back a bit, but it is acceptable as it is now.

• Good. I'm not sure there is that much expansion possible, in any case, so this is as big as it would probably get.

• Citations needed
  • "They were married at Marylebone Registry Office on 18 August 1939, with Stevie Smith and Louis McNeice as witnesses."
  • "Manning was subject to anxieties bordering on paranoia throughout her life."
  • "She frequently sacked vets – telling one "I do not pay you to tell me that there is nothing wrong with my animal" – and trying animal faith healers at times.", quote needs a citation
  • "Early in 1975 Manning began The Danger Tree, which for a time she described as "The Fourth Part of the Balkan Trilogy"; in the event, it became the first novel in The Levant Trilogy, continuing the story of the Pringles in the Middle East.", quote needs citation
  • "The first book proved "a long struggle" to write, in part because of Manning's lack of confidence in her powers of invention: the book juxtaposes the Desert War experiences of a young officer, Simon Boulderstone, with the securer lives of the Pringles and their circle." quote needs citation
  • "She died in hospital on 23 July; somewhat typically, Reggie, having been recalled from Ireland, was not present when she died."

• I've reworked the citing so that there is an appropriate citation at the end of each of the sentences you mention, rather than a bit later.

• Images
  • Note File:Olivia manning.jpg, is non-free, fair use rationale is acceptable
  • The size of some images are forced. WP:Image discourages forcing image size without a good reason.
• References are all acceptable
• Images check out
• Alt text is present

I am leaning to support this fine article. The reference section being moved and the uncited quotes are my biggest concern. Good job! —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 15:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions. I have done my best to respond to them.Slp1 (talk) 20:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Support, this is a very nice article, and a very interesting read. Indeed, you are very talented! Keep up the good work. :) —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Support Nicely written. I made a few MINOR tweaks, revert if you wish. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

comment I couldn't find the link to the FA on the page. Am I blind or stupid? Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Your changes are very helpful. Are you talking about the link to this page, that should be on the talkpage? If so, it is there! I am sure you are neither of the things you call yourself though!! --Slp1 (talk) 23:36, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support: As Slp1 mentioned above, I previously reviewed this article for GA. How pleased I am to see it's expanded and improved so much since then! It's well written, well referenced, and certainly brings to light an incredibly interesting woman who not many are aware of. The "Work" section is exactly what I had in mind when I suggested further attention be paid to her literary output, so great work done there. I'm very pleased to support this becoming an FA. (P.S., however, why is there no article for epic novel? The redlink really jumps out at me, which is strange since there's a category and an article for epic poetry. Hmm.) María (habla conmigo) 18:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
• Comments

"Her fiction and non-fiction, frequently detailing journeys and personal odysseys, were generally set in England, Ireland, Europe and Africa" - seems comicly cautious, but is also wrong - Syria, Palestine & the Lebanon are none of these. Were any set anywhere else? -ok, one I see. Does "Africa" just mean Egypt? Better rework.

We don't link London surely? Or England & Europe I'd say.

"hometown" as one word is US English it seems to me

A sentence or two explaining the Romanian political/diplomatic situation in 1939 is called for, and a couple of words on Transylvania and Egypt likewise.

"With Bernard Montgomery's Memoirs as her guide" - "Field-Marshall M" is still usual & clearer.

It would be useful to say which books remain in print, & when the others last were, where the information is easily accessible.

It is extremely heavily reliant on the B&B biography. Were there no other sources for the life?

Johnbod (talk) 04:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. Starting at the bottom, no, as far as I am aware, and after fairly exhaustive searches there are no other detailed sources apart from the B and B bio and the Dictionary of National Biography articles which I have also used. There are brief mentions of short periods of her life in various Stevie Smith, Durrell and Cairo-in-the-War bios and books. I have used these where possible. If it is any consolation there is little inconsistency between B & B and the other sources, where there these are available.

I've added a sentence about the books currently in print. I could with some difficulty ascertain when the others were in print, if you think it is worth it, though I'm not sure where and how the information would be presented.

I've fixed up the first sentence, the Monty reference and "home town". Thank you.

I've delinked some; this is so much a matter of preference and I was encouraged to add links above!! My personal view is that we should be consistent if Europe is not linked then neither should Africa etc, and that if England isn't, then Ireland shouldn't be either.

I'll work on expanding the info about Romania/Transylvania/Egypt either later on tonight or tomorrow.

Once again, thank you for your helpful comment. --Slp1 (talk) 22:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok, it should'nt be that difficult if major reprints are listed without claiming they are necessarily the last. Was everything published in a North American edition? Also how many languages has she been translated into? These are not minor points, though not the sort of thing academic critics trouble themselves with. Johnbod (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

As you note, it isn't the focus of the bios. There are, for example, some incidental references to individual NA editions (some already mentioned in the text), but I can't think of any information about translations in them at all. I would probably need to do searches through world cat, books in print etc to figure this information out, which worries me somewhat as straying into original research. Do you have any comments about where this information should be added? To the text? To the list of her books at the end? I can't visualize how it is going to be presented, as over the 30-50 years many of the books have had several UK editions/reprints, North American, South African, Australian etc editions/reprints, and maybe even a translation. It is potentially a lot of information. It would be very helpful for me to see another WP article as a model, so that I can understand more clearly your suggestion --Slp1 (talk) 02:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

There is rightly a lot in the article about how she was, or felt, neglected etc in later years, but it is hard to give context to this without knowing whether her books were still in print. Equally the books outside the series - how long did they stay in print. If it isn't covered to some extent in the biography then it certainly should be! Criticism is different. The German article mentions German editions of the series. I don't think reporting the existence of editions without drawing conclusions is OR. There is little point regurgitating the opinions of academic critics without knowing if anyone was or is reading the books. For example her first book seems never to have had a US paperback edition, or any since 1938, whereas Virago did a UK pb edn in 1988. Johnbod (talk) 12:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I've now added

• More context about Romania, Transylvania and Egypt at the time[5]
• Information about the languages that her books have been translated into based on worldcat and a Romanian source that I had to hand.[6]
• Information about the books that are currently in print.[7]

I am still unclear and somewhat unconvinced about your request for details about out of print status. For one, I am concerned that the desire to put Manning's insecurities into context by noting the reprints/out-of-print status her books etc, would be synthesis. I've been through the bio and the ODNB entry again, and neither suggest that this was part of problem for her; instead the angst noted is mainly about reviews, lack of prizes recognition. As far as putting them in the listings, I've had a look at the "works" sections for some similar featured articles and they just mention the date of first publication, not subsequent reprintings. It is also so complicated; I don't think historical information about "when" books go out of print is available, and obviously it is a kind of circular phenomenon. Yes, Virago Modern Classics reprinted (all?) her books in the 1980s and 1990s, (which certainly would be worth a mention, if only I could find a source; for some reason this list of Virago Modern Classics omits them [8]) but these editions are now out of print once again, though others have taken up the slack. If we take Doves of Venus as an example, the listing would be something like...

Doves of Venus: UK: Heinemann (1955, 1959, 1960, 1974) Virago, (1984, 1985), Mandarin (1992), Arrow, (2001), Random House (2001); US: Abelard-Schuman (1956); Denmark: Kbh (1956); Finland: Hämeenlinna (1956), Germany: Biederstein, (1957); Büchergilde Gutenberg, (1959); Australia: Little, Brown Book Group Limited (2001) Random House (2005); New Zealand: Random House (1997, 2004) Little, Brown Book Group Limited (2000); Canada : Random House (2001); South Africa: Random House (2001).

And that's one that is fairly straightforward, and making assumptions that world cat is correct in its listings, which it isn't always, and likely missing some out. I would like to try and address your concerns but at the moment, I am not clear that this would really be an improvement. I'd be glad for the opinion of others here. --Slp1 (talk) 18:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Having found this this of editions, I decided to give it a go. I've added the years of all the editions listed there and on WorldCat. See this [9] --Slp1 (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that's more than enough on English-language editions, but needs at least an overall ref. Also there should be some mention of translations into other languages - are they all North European for example? Johnbod (talk) 04:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but I am still having trouble understanding what you are suggesting: what do you mean by "needs an overall ref"? Are you asking for a citation to the list? More details about the various editions in the text of the article? The translations (and which languages) have been included in the text for several days now.[10]. Are you suggesting more information about the translations should be in the list? Thank you for clarifying. --Slp1 (talk) 12:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The whole "Works" section is unreferenced. Presumably the information mostly came from the same one or two places in which case I would suggest only an OVERALL ref is needed, not a host of individual ones. You had not mentioned you had added the translations, and people can't be expected to reread the article every time! Hope this is clearer. Johnbod (talk) 02:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, yes it is. I've added a reference for the books as you requested.[11] I mentioned that I had addressed the translation issue in my April 9th post above, but you must have missed it. No worries, though! --Slp1 (talk) 03:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support My points above dealt with. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support. I peer-reviewed this article on March 27 and thought it close to FA quality, and it has only improved since then. Most impressive piece of work and an enjoyable read. Finetooth (talk) 02:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
• Comments
  • Is "in the event" correct here: "In the event, her renown..."
  • A little bit of inconsistency in the refs: Full reference supplied repeatedly for Barbera, Jack & McBrien, William (1985); McNiven, Ian (1998) & Rossen, Janice (2003).• Ling.Nut 06:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

You are right, of course. "In the event" -> "as it happened". As far as the refs are concerned, they have different page numbers cited. This seemed a reasonable way to go since the books are used only a couple of times, so I did not put them in the references. But if you have another suggestion... --Slp1 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.