Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Peru national football team/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 16:57, 20 June 2009 [1].

Peru national football team[edit]

Nominator(s): [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because...I believe that it meets the FA criteria, it made it to GA status and from that point on has received much review and contributions from various editors. Modeled after the Scotland national football team article (FA status), I believe that the Peru national football team article exemplifies Wikipedia's best works and hope that whoever reviews this agrees with me.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"To promote the growth of the sport, British residents of Peru and Peruvians returning from England began to increment the practice of football." Do you mean "implement", or perhaps "increase"? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Increase, of course. Football was already implemented by the sailors by that time. Thanks for pointing that out.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 04:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There are a lot of rough edges present. The amount of work required probably makes it a tall order to resolve all the issues over the course of a nomination.
    • Blogs are used as sources in a number of places e.g. Flicktokick.wordpress.com (which quotes Wikipedia as its source), Jaimepulgarvidal.blogspot.com
    • A thorough copyedit is required, probably by a native speaker. Examples of unnatural or indirect phrasing are abundant throughout, e.g. "La Blanquirroja managed to successfully qualify for the 1982 FIFA World Cup" could be simply "La Blanquirroja successfully qualified for the 1982 FIFA World Cup, (or just "La Blanquirroja qualified...", qualification implies success); "a change took sudden place in the late 1990s" ought to be "a sudden change took place in the late 1990s". These are just a couple picked at random; there are many others.
    • Why do some players in the squad listing have their name in the form of external links, and why is there an asterisk next to one of them?
    • Two players have negative goalscoring figures.
    • Nobby Solano is listed as the team captain in the infobox, yet in the body of the article it says he has retired.
    • "In 1938, Peru won its first international title during the first Bolivarian Games, which Peru won after sweeping the participants Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, and Venezuela." Sweeping?
    • "Peru became the fourth nation after Uruguay, Argentina, and Brazil to win the famed South American tournament". "Famed" is a peacock term. "to become champions of South America" would avoid this, while making the scale of the achievement clear.
    • "The national squad's slow change and bad situation was most obvious during the early South American Championships of the 1940s. By 1941, la Blanquirroja still had effective but old players like Teodoro Fernández in their lines." The only citation for this is a list of lineups for the 1941 Copa America
    • I'm not convinced by the use of a list of Elo ratings at a reference for the sentence "By the 1950s, Peru once again found itself a major protagonist in South American football, considered to be among the top 20 of the decade". A retroactive ranking calculation made by a hobbyist in 1997 is a weak justification for such claims.
    • "During 1953 and 1954, Peru achieved its only two titles of the 1950s thanks to the Copa del Pacifico after losing and winning two times against Chile" - its not clear from this how two titles were gained, given that the team lost twice.
    • Why did Peru withdraw from the 1934 and 1954 World Cups?
    • The licensing is OK but can the watermark be cropped from File:Seleccionperu.jpg?
    • "The participation of Peru in the 1970 FIFA World Cup remains as one of the most memorable as the squad caused surprise as they advanced into the quarterfinals after defeating Bulgaria 3–2 and Morocco 3–0, and losing 3–1 to Germany." The only reference for this is a list of results, which doesn't support the bits about it being memorable or causing surprise.
    • "By the time the Spain 1982 World Cup came, the Peruvian squad was seen as a strong contender, but ties with Cameroon and Italy and defeat by Poland (5–1) saw them leave the tournament early." - again the only reference is a result page, which makes no mention of Peru being seen as a strong contender.
    • "after being randomly chosen in a sorting between it and Brazil," what does this mean?
    • In the "Uniform" section, references to Peru's first, second, third and fourth kit ought to be reworded. Terms like third kit have a different, specific meaning in football contexts.

Oldelpaso (talk) 16:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll try to resolve all of those problems in order to try to change your opinion.
    • Replaced the Flicktokick.wordpress.com with a FIFA.com source.
    • The Jaimepulgarvidal.blogspot.com is only referenced 6 times. It does not make any exceptional claims, and the only information taken out from it is important to explain the early history of the team. There is no other easily available source that holds this information, and not because the information itself is not valid or important. You have to take into account that it is extremely unlikely that anybody from Peru is ever going to publish anything from those times related to any sport outside of Peru. Even in Peru it's rarity to find such sources of information on paper. I know that Wikipedia has its policies on blogs, but that is why there is supposed to be people that interpret the policies and apply them as they see fit in accordance to their own rational process of thought.
    • I don't know why the names of some players have external links, or why the asterisk. I'm sure whoever edited that did it in good faith. I'll fix it as it is no big problem. The negative goals probably means the numbers of goals scored against them (they're both goalkeepers). I'll fix that too.
    • Solano unofficially retired from the national team just a few days ago. He has even mentioned his desire to start a coaching career. However, it is not official, and therefore there is currently no official replacement for Solano as captain of Peru. The Peru NT right now is going through many strange phases, and that's really completely out of my hands. All that the contributors to the article can do is attempt to update it with the most correct information available.
    • I've found some minor information as to why Peru withdrew from 1934. It's something along the lines of wanting to support Uruguay's boycott and not wanting its players to remain in Europe. It's really confusing, and the places where I found the responses were highly unreliable places such as forums (Both English and Spanish), and even Wikipedia in Spanish (but with no references). This is what I mean when I mention that finding this kind of information for Peru is highly difficult. Jaime Pulgar Vidal's blog is much more reliable than the vast majority of the other places where such information sporadically appears.
    • Peru withdrawing from 1950 and 1954 is yet again another mystery. I read in the Spanish Wikipedia that Juan Peron of Argentina persuaded the government of Peru (under Manuel Odria, who was a military dictator like Peron) not to participate in 1954.
    • There's nothing I can do about you not being convinced by the ELO ratings. ELO ratings are present in every single national football team article. If ELO is not reliable, then it should be taken out of every single football article that has it in Wikipedia. Until then, I don't see any problem with it.
    • I'll check all of the grammar mentions you made.

Thanks for your constructive suggestions.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, this might sound silly, but what is the watermark in the picture you mention?--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 18:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The text saying (c) Jose C Swain. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:54, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I can do that. It should be fixed now.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 19:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I believe that almost everything you mentioned should be fixed by now. There are a couple of exceptions, though. The first is the Jaime Pulgar Vidal blogspot, which I really cannot find a replacement to, and I really do not want to delete it as it provides important historical information to the article; I hope this is not going to remain a major issue for the present FA candidacy of the article. The second and last is the copyedit you suggested, as obviously I will not be able to find the problems with the article (I wrote it, so I really can't find a writing problem with it); what do you suggest I could do? Other than that, everything else you mentioned should be fixed.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What credentials does Vidal have? Oldelpaso (talk) 14:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He provides information about himself on his blog. From this source, he claims to hold a Bachelor's degree on history from the National University of San Marcos and to have the profession of a sports journalist. His information has apparently been used in a book entitled "Ese Gol Existe" ("That Goal Exists"). His information has been used as reference in other Wikipedia articles (Spanish wiki) and on a series of websites. I don't know if this is enough to prove his credibility (I'm assuming good faith, and so far he does seem credible; but I know there's a difference between seem and fact), so I've sent him a message in order to establish some sort of contact with him. Hopefully, if he decides to reply back, he will provide more information on his credentials.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 21:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I found another source that helps establish his credibility. It's again on the matter of the book "That Goal Exists," but this time it has more information on it provided by the French Institute of Andean Studies. According to the information they provide, they certify that Mr. Vidal had input in the book, and that the book's editor is the Pontifical Catholic University of Peru.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 21:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. Vidal provided his credentials (Yay!). You can reach them by clicking on this link. I'm truly quite surprised that he replied. However, he has provided the information in Spanish. I told him to provide the information in whatever language was easiest for him, so if you would like for me to translate his text then feel free to ask me (I'll translate it exactly as he wrote it in Spanish, but only if you, the evaluators, deem it necessary).--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 06:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I gather from that (I don't speak Spanish) that he has covered football topics on TV, radio and in print, so I'm satisfied there.
However, on other parts of the article where sourcing could be stronger, I am certain that decent sources exist, just perhaps not on the web. World Cups and Copa Americas are by no means obscure events. I own just two football books which mention Peru at all, a total of a mere couple of pages of material, but even from that there are passages which would provide stronger referencing than that currently present. For instance, Brian Glanville's Story of the World Cup makes it clear that Peru's 1970 World Cup side were noted for playing in an attacking manner; "the Peruvians scorned negative methods" and "delighted in attack" but "that Peru's defence was very far from the equal of their shining attack had been plain in their concluding group game against West Germany". For an FA I'd expect more robust referencing than that generally present at the moment. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are some good book sources for Peru in the World Cup and the Copa America, but that's as far as it goes. Only recently are people like Mr. Vidal putting on paper the early days of Peruvian football (1890s-1960s). You're right, though, that more robust referencing would make the article stronger. The way things are going, I can tell that the article won't pass the FA candidacy at this point, but it's been a constructive experience nonetheless. Not only did the article get Mr. Vidal's credibility established, but now I know that the main issues it needs work in are the prose's copy-editing and stronger referencing (from books). Thanks.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 12:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On a similar note, your points 9, 11, 12, 13, and 14 should be fixed by now.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 12:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Too many issues at the present time. Prose needs serious copy-editing, as there are too many problems for me to think that providing examples alone would be helpful. The number of non-free images is excessive, and sourcing quality is questionable in some cases. Giants2008 (17-14) 14:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Examples are always helpful. There is only 5 non-free images. The image currently tagged as "questionable" is the one that I took from User:jcswayne, who had it under the GUN free license. The user who nominated the image as "questionable" has not even bothered to reply to the explanation I gave for the picture, and that therefore should not be counted on the article's fault.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The user who nominated the image replied, and has agreed that there is no problem with the image. Please check the link for verification of my statement.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 21:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note that I did not look at the non-English sources. --Ealdgyth - Talk 13:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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