Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Negro Motorist Green Book/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

The Negro Motorist Green Book[edit]

The Negro Motorist Green Book (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Prioryman (talk) 08:28, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article attracted a very positive response when it ran on DYK a few months ago, and it recently became a Good Article. I'm aiming to get it up to Featured Article standard in time for the next Martin Luther King Day (in mid-January) so here it is for your consideration. Prioryman (talk) 08:28, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did it cover part of Canada, part of Mexico and part of Bermuda or Bermuda and parts of Canada and Mexico or Bermuda, Mexico and part of Canada? DrKiernan (talk) 08:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC) I've looked at the 1956 version, and see that it also covers Barbados, Nassau, etc. Perhaps this could be changed to "parts of Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean, including Bermuda" or similar (yes, I know Bermuda isn't in the Caribbean properly). DrKiernan (talk) 13:55, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from Curly Turkey[edit]

Feel free to disagree with anything here—some of it is just my 'druthers.

  • could we get some alt text for the images?
  • sometimes the article uses "African-American", and sometimes "black" or "Black American". I don't know if this should be made consistent or not.
  • a {{Portal|African American|Discrimiation}} would be nice
Lead[edit]
  • OK, I've capitalised this too in order to be consistent. Prioryman (talk) 23:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "during the Jim Crow era when discrimination against non-whites was widespread": best to use a comma after "era", so we can be sure there wasn't another part of Jim Crow era when discrimination against non-whites wasn't widespread
  • "As the writer George Schuyler put it in 1930,": isn't "put it" a little informal?
  • I don't think so, to be honest - I've never seen it that way. Prioryman (talk) 23:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to serve them (or repair their vehicles)": I don't see the need for parentheses here
  • "white-owned businesses refusing to serve them ... refused accommodation or food": isn't "refused food" redundant with "refusing to serve them"?
  • Well, it refers to more than just serving food, so I've revised this to make it clearer.
  • "in recent years": maybe "in the early 21st century" or something more explicit?
Traveling while black[edit]
  • I'm not sure the section title is encyclopaedic
  • I think it's justifiable - both an allusion to "driving while black" and an expression that's been used before by a number of authors (e.g. [2]). Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a minefield of constant uncertainty and risk": "a minefield" might be a tad hyperbolic for an encyclopaedia
  • The cited author (Seiler) refers to the open road being "a democratic social space and a racial minefield" - this alludes to his phrase. Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's no reason to use the same vocab as the original. If you do, it's probably best to quote it. Curly Turkey (gobble) 07:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, I think "puts it" is perfectly fine. Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "barred from bathrooms and rest areas": proably most readers will be North American, but still it would be nice to use a more universal term than the North American "bathroom" (say, "toilets"?)
  • Is that really used much in North America? I've deliberately tried to write in American English per WP:TIES. Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and even travel essentials such as could be unavailable due to discrimination at gas stations": seems like much more of a mouthful than it needs to be; maybe reword the whole sentence to something like: "Diners, restaurants, and even gas stations also rejected blacks"—by the way, is there a difference between a diner and a restaurant that makes a difference to this article?
  • I was under the impression that diners are more like roadside cafés in Europe, whereas restaurants are more formal. Is that correct? If so, then I think there's a difference worth noting. Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I guess I'm not sure, but I'd always thought of "diner" as a subset of "restaurant". Curly Turkey (gobble) 07:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I honestly don't know how to resolve the two issues above. I'll ask around for further advice. Prioryman (talk) 21:24, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sorry, I didn't mean to imply I'd oppose over "diner"—if you believe there's a difference, I'll take your word at it unless I find out otherwise. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "recalls how his family": "recalled"?
  • "faced by black travellers": US spelling is "travelers"
  • "They were not simply a phenomenon of the South (in fact, white Southerners disliked the practice, as it would have deprived them of black labour)": so was it prominent in the South or not? This sentence seems almost to contradict itself. Given that this is the first mention of the South, you might want to throw in some qualifier about Southerners being stereotyped as racists
  • To be honest I think the parenthetical bit is more trouble than it's worth, so I've taken it out. Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "across the entire country": drop "entire"
  • "more than 100 motels that lined U.S. Route 66 in Albuquerque, New Mexico, less than six percent": is there some reason this must be circumlocuted?? 6 percent of 100 is 6. Less than six percent of over 100 is, what? 5? 6?
  • That's how the source - a local newspaper - describes it. "Mr. Boyd said a recent survey by his committee showed that less than six percent of more than 100 motels and tourist courts on U.S. 66 in Albuquerque were accepting Negro tourists. Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, that's unfortunate—I guess there isn't a better way to handle it unless you have a better source for the figures. Curly Turkey (gobble) 07:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the whole of the state of New Hampshire": you could safely drop the whole of "the whole of the state of"
  • "The risky nature of African-American travel was reflected in the fact that their road trip": what's the precedent of "their"? Maybe "travel for African-Americans" would be better
  • "The risky nature of African-American travel was reflected in the fact that their road trip narratives have often had a very different outlook from their more utopian white counterparts, highlighting the constant anxiety experienced by black travelers in the United States.": I think this meanders a bit. How about: "The risk in travel for African-Americans was reflected in the anxiety expressed in their road trip narratives, a very different outlook from their more utopian white counterparts." Or something.
  • "in which "so many ... were just not making it to their destinations."": I realize the period is likely in the original, but I think the logic of the sentence demands it be placed outside the quotes.
  • "not believe that "white travelers have any idea": probably want to interpolate a "[had]" for the "have"
  • I'm not sure this makes much sense - the author was writing in 1965, so his words reflect the situation it existed at the time. Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Of course, but the logic of the way the quote is embedded in the sentence requires the cases to match up, thus the interpolation. Either that, or reword the sentence without that "that". Curly Turkey (gobble) 07:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Supposedly we're supposed to supply an inline cite for each quotation—I don't know if that would aplly to the large number in the "The risky nature" paragraph, but it certainly couldn't hurt
  • That series of quotes all comes from the same source, Primeau, near the end of the paragraph. I suppose I could put in repeated references to the same source but it seems, I don't know, a bit inelegant? Prioryman (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Definitely inelegant. I'm just not sure if the requirement for an inline for each quote applies here or not. Advice from anyone who knows? Curly Turkey (gobble) 07:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "finished, traveling while black remained difficult": again, I'm not sure "taveling while black" is encyclopaedic
Navigating Jim Crow: the role of the Green Book[edit]
  • "Travel is fatal to prejudice,": we don't serve commas here; kick it out of them quotemarks
  • "that faced all black drivers": drop the "all"
  • "tourist homes (private residence, usually owned by African-Americans": "private residences"?
  • "They were arranged by state, subdivided by city,": I might replace the comma with "and"
  • "they were "recommended.": that goes for periods, too: kick it out
  • "... the Friendly City beauty parlor; the Black Beauty Tea Room; the New Progressive tailor shop; the Big Buster tavern and Blue Duck Inn.": I don't know if there's such a thing as "serial semicolons", but this sentence sure looks weird to me without a semicolon before the last item, as if the last two items were being grouped together
  • "a listing of black resorts": what's a "black resort"? A black-run resort? A black-only resort? A black-friendly resort?
  • We don't seem to have an article about it - perhaps I'll do one later - but during the Jim era Crow there were a number of resorts run for black people. They were customarily referred to as "black resorts". See [4]. Prioryman (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't doubt it, but given that "black resort" could mean any number of things, it would be best to provide at least a little context—say something along the lines of "a listing of "black resorts"—resorts meant to cater to black customers—"...? Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He offered a bounty of a dollar": maybe "bounty" isn't the right word in an encyclopaedia?
  • Fair enough, I've changed "bounty" to "reward." Prioryman (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Impact[edit]
  • "a pioneering African-American sales representative of the company": of which company? Esso?
  • " (By contrast, Shell gas stations were known to refuse black customers.)": Why the parentheses?
  • I guess they're not really needed - removed. Prioryman (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "refrained from editorialising": "editorializing" in US misspelling
  • "wrote in his autobiographical account": I think "autobiographical" can be dropped
  • I'm not really sure that's relevant to the article. He's famous for being one of the Nine but I don't think that the events that made him famous are connected to his trip mentioned in the article - at least I don't know of any connection. Readers can always click on the link to find out more... Prioryman (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While the Green Book sought ...it looked forward to a time": I don't think a book is capable of "seeking" or "looking forward to" things
Publishing history[edit]
  • "Montréal": we're not supposed to use the accented form in English
  • "distributed by mail order, through black-owned businesses": drop the comma
  • It's needed. "mail order" and "through black-owned businesses" are two separate distribution methods. They weren't distributed by mail order through black-owned businesses. I've replaced "through" with "by" to clarify this. Prioryman (talk) 23:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " increasing to $1.25 by 1957": no word on what it cost for the last edition? 1957 is a weird year to single out
  • Nope, that's all I have, I'm afraid. Prioryman (talk) 23:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "accommodations and services." "; "of tensions and problems." ": kick out them periods
  • "general public ("public accommodations")": is "public accommodations" the legal wording or something? Could this be made clear?
  • Yes, it's legal wording. I've clarified this point. Prioryman (talk) 23:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy[edit]
  • "associated with black travel during segregation": or "the segregation era"—"segregation" is a policy, not a time period.
  • This seems to have already been changed by someone else. Prioryman (talk) 00:37, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of the Holocaust all spend": drop the "all"

———Curly Turkey (gobble) 11:20, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Images are fine, captions are good. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "As the writer George Schuyler ... work purposes."—I'd remove this bit from the lead. It merely repeats issues that have been succinctly raised in the previous two sentences (and isn't really directly about the Green Book to warrant a quotation). Considering splitting the second para into two. (locked-out User:Indopug) 122.172.11.178 (talk) 16:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- This review has been open a month without approaching consensus to promote so I'll be archiving it shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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