Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/USS Marmora (1862)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 17 May 2023 [1].

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USS Marmora (1862)

Nominator(s): Hog Farm _Talk 05:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

If this nomination passes, I believe it will be the first tinclad warship to be a featured article. The best documented of the whole lot, Marmora is probably best known for being present when the ironclad Cairo sent itself to the bottom of the Yazoo River by steaming over a couple naval mines, and then torching a couple settlements in Arkansas in the next year. Hog Farm _Talk 05:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
  • I've added alt text for all but the map, which I can't think of a good way to describe. Hog Farm _Talk 01:17, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Valereee

Date context:

• I'm wondering if the lead sentence could use an addition about the dates of service? The ship was built and put into service in 1862 and saw her last service/was declared surplus in 1865, is that worth mentioning in the lead sentence?
  • I've added the 1862-1865 dates into the first sentence
• New sections/subsections (such as Yazoo City and later service) probably need a year listed in the first date mentioned; I found myself scrolling up to the section above to see what year we were talking about with On February 2, Marmora began a movement up the Yazoo River.
  • I've done this for all but two sections - "Late 1863" has the year in the name, so I don't think it's necessary to duplicate the date there, and I've left it off of the Chickasaw Bluff and Fort Hindman one because the prior section about the Cairo takes up less than two weeks of time, so the time context should still be pretty fresh

Valereee (talk) 15:48, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

• "USS Marmora was a sternwheel steamer that served in the Union Navy during the American Civil War from 1862 to 1865." maybe "USS Marmora was a sternwheel steamer that served in the Union Navy from 1862 to 1865, during the American Civil War. This stops the dates from hanging off the end of the sentence and also you drop the 1862 date again right afterwards.

• Done

• Do 12-pounder and similar require conversion or footnoting for metric equivalent?

• Probably - I don't know if it's possible with the template, but I've asked at Template talk:Convert. If it's not possible to do this via template, I'll try to go through and provide manual conversions for everything. Hog Farm _Talk 02:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• It looks like there may not be a firm consensus that providing those conversions is appropriate. Hog Farm _Talk 14:18, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• "in junction" maybe "in conjunction"?

• Done

• "In early 1863, Grant and Porter made a plan known as the Yazoo Pass expedition" This reads a bit oddly. Perhaps this is what the action has come to be called, but did Grant and Porter called their plan this?\

• Rephrased

More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

• I understand you've given standard info on the characteristics that we see in FA ship articles, but can anything be said on living conditions or arrangements on her? Crew size?

• Nothing I've seen that's particularly solid on this information. Hog Farm _Talk 16:55, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

• It might be worth mentioning more clearly what the three crew received the Medal of Honor for, assuming Medal of Honor citations of that era are considered reliable.

• Have added a bit here

• "Extracts from her ship's log were later published more times in the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies than those of any other tinclad.[96]" Assuming this is significant, the question is why were extracts published more often? If they are particularly juicy, would it worth be including some bits in quote boxes?

• Nothing particularly juice (that's USS Romeo and the squadron commander talking crap about the ship captain in his official reports). I've added the one bit of significance Smith applies to this information.

That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:59, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: - Have replied above, all done so far except for the pound to kg conversion. Hog Farm _Talk 04:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I just raised the issue, I'm fine with whatever you come up with there. Support Wehwalt (talk) 14:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Source review

Spotchecks not done

• Encyclopedia of Arkansas should be italicized
• FN3 is missing publisher. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
  • @Nikkimaria: Thanks for the source review! I've converted the E of A refs to be cite encyclopedia, and have added the missing publisher. Hog Farm _Talk 16:55, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Funk

• I'll have a look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 11:54, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
• "Wartime map of the Satartia, Liverpool" But the source says it's from 1911?
  • Oops, fixed. I don't know why I was under the impression that Porter had drawn it. Hog Farm _Talk 01:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
• "and the name originated with the island of Marmara" Do we know why it was named after this island?
  • Not that I've seen.
• Do we have any more info about the pre-military activities of this ship?
  • Unfortunately, I've been able to turn up very little on this.
• "by an escaped slave" Perhaps an interesting article could be linked here? Fugitive slaves in the United States?
  • Linked
• "USS Cairo. Marmora was present when Cairo sank on December 12, 1862." Link the ship's name in caption?
  • Linked Cairo in the caption
• Link flotilla?
  • I'm using flotilla in more of an informal sense of "collection of warships" rather than the more formal sense linked there - do you think it'd be better to link or simply come up with another word to use there?
• "reached the site of the Confederate fort, and sent a party ashore to help destroy the fort" Perhaps "destroy it" to avoid repeating "fort"?
  • Done
• "A modern view of the Mississippi River in the area of the former site of Eunice, Arkansas" Link places?
  • Done
• " slowed by her boiler problems" Her problems makes it sound like it's a problem that has been mentioned earlier, but it seems it hasn't. Just say "slowed by boiler problems"?
  • Rephrased as suggested
• "She then fired on the woods on the opposite side of the river." Why?
  • I don't think it's important and haven't had a chance to get to the library to consult Smith, so I've just removed the sentence
• "that burned every structure within a mile of Eunice, including a warehouse and railroad depot." From reading the article about the town, perhaps worth mentioning it never recovered and remains uninhabited?
  • Not finding much explicitly stating that, but I've added a statement that Eunice was replaced w
• "They began returning downriver on February 19, returning to Yazoo City on February 28" Could the double "returning" become less repetitive by for example saying "arriving" at last occurrence?
  • rephrased

@FunkMonk: - Thank you for the review! Sorry about the delay in getting to these Hog Farm _Talk 04:16, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support - looking good to me, maybe the flotilla term is a bit confusing if it doesn't mean what most people think it means, but you can deal with it how you like. FunkMonk (talk) 12:19, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Harrias – Support

• "..from C. Brennan, William Nelson, and James McDonnell." Is that last one definitely James McDonnell, and not the ship's captain James McDonald? It seems a mighty odd coincidence otherwise?f
  • This came up, in a way, in the ACR, as well. I suspect it may be, but the sources I've consulted consistently use McDonnell for the seller, and don't make a connection
• "..these numbers were painted onto the pilothouses of the tinclads beginning in June 1863. She was commissioned into the Union Navy on October 21.." Putting the "October 21" date after the "June 1863" date makes it seem like she was commissioned in 1863, but according to the infobox it was 1862, so add the year for clarity.
  • Done
• "Marmora left Carondelet for Cairo, Illinois on.." Needs a comma after "Illinois", per MOS:GEOCOMMA.
  • Done, although my personal opinion is that GEOCOMMA is a load of crock
• Per MOS:TIME add a non-breaking space into all the times in the article.
  • I caught 5 of them, which I think is all
• "..wanted to confirm or deny that information.." – This phrasing is pretty awkward; "wanted to verify that information" would be much more natural, but I wonder if you've changed it to avoid close para-phrasing/copyvio concerns?
  • The original text in the source is "Walke wanted confirmation of this". I think "wanted to verify that information" would be OK from a copyvio perspective, so I've switched to that
• "Cairo heard men.." Ships can't hear, so this reads a little awkwardly to me.
  • Rephrased
• "..reaching Coldwater, Mississippi two days later." Needs a comma after "Mississippi", per MOS:GEOCOMMA.
  • Done
• "..prompting retribution from Marmora. Marmora fired on.." Rephrase to avoid finishing one sentence, and starting the next, with the same word.
  • Rephrased
• "The morning of June 16, saw a combined.." No need for that comma.
  • Removed - I'd actually been requested to add this comma in the A-Class review
• "..found the town of St. Charles, Arkansas deserted.." Conversely, this needs a comma after "Arkansas", per MOS:GEOCOMMA.
  • Done
• "..moved up the Little Red, where she captured two Confederate gunboats, Tom Sugg and Kaskaskia, on that river." "on that river" at the end is redundant.
  • Done
• "On September 19, Acting Master Elias Rees, who was commanding Marmora at that time, reported.." Get rid of "at that time".
  • Done
• I'd move the location of Island No. 70 (in the Concordia Bend on the Mississippi River) from the note to the main body.
  • Done
• "..in the Liverpool, Mississippi area." Add a comma after "Mississippi", per MOS:GEOCOMMA.
  • Done
• "..Marmora and Exchange pushed on to Yazoo City, but came under.." I don't think that comma is needed.
  • Done
• "..from the river town of Napoleon, Arkansas to Island No. 76." Another MOS:GEOCOMMA needed.
  • Cone
• "..while Gibson reported on September 13, that the vessel.." No comma needed.
  • Removed, another comma request from the ACR
• "..was sent to Mound City, Illinois in June.." MOS:GEOCOMMA.
  • Done

That's the main body. I always look at the Lead after.

• "Purchased for military service on September 17, she was converted into a tinclad warship." I would recommend rewriting this as "She was purchased for military service on September 17 and converted into a tinclad warship."
  • Done
• "..but was not present when the fort surrendered on January 11 after the Battle of Fort Hindman." Given she wasn't there, I'd cut "after the Battle of Fort Hindman". It isn't important enough to include in the lead of this article, I don't think.
  • Done
• "..and Gaines Landing, Arkansas after.." MOS:GEOCOMMA.
  • Added
• "..at Mound City, Illinois the next month." MOS:GEOCOMMA.
  • Adde

That's it on the prose from me. Harrias ^{(he/him) • talk} 12:05, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

• @Harrias: - Thanks for the review! I've replied to or actioned all of the above. Hog Farm _Talk 19:19, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Nice work, I'm happy with the changes made, and happy to support this. Harrias ^{(he/him) • talk} 09:53, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66

• he sent part of the crew of Marmora on a tugboat, USS Laurel why?
  • Noted
    • I was thinking something more along the lines of "reconnaissance mission" or somesuch --Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Porter organized his force They weren't organized before?
  • Source says "Porter assembled his ironclads and light drafts" and then discusses Porter putting Watson Smith in command, so I guess this was a general reorganization for the upcoming Ft. Hindman campaign
    • Then I'd suggest "reorganized" rather than "organized"--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• to best protect the troops "better" and delete the plural on troops.
  • Done
• I'm seeing a lot of Marmora, and not a lot of she, the ship, the tinclad, etc. Gotta minimize the repetition.
  • I've rephrased 16 instances of "Marmora"
• Beginning on August 8, Marmora moved up the White River, and found the town of St. Charles, Arkansas, deserted due to Union control of the river. This movement was as part of a flotilla commanded by Lieutenant George M. Bache. Combine these
  • Have merged these two sentences
• had shifted to being stationed out of perhaps a simple "transferred"?
  • Done
• and participated in repulsing assisted
  • Change made
• Three seamen from Marmora received the Medal of Honor for their actions at Yazoo City: William J. Franks, Bartlett Laffey, and James Stoddard;[83] they had been part of the howitzer crew awkward
  • I've tried to merge this together better
• then served on duty controlling illegal trading perhaps "was assigned duties controlling..."?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Done

Hog Farm ? Gog the Mild (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild and Sturmvogel 66: - it looks like I must have missed these when they were posted. I've tried to resolve all of them now. Hog Farm _Talk 23:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

@Sturmvogel 66: - I've rephrased the two outstanding concerns. Hog Farm _Talk 03:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Looks good.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Harry

I don't normally do ships but seeing as this one is nearly at the bottom of FAC I'll take a look, at least at the prose. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

• Do we need to link shipyard, boiler, acting, barge, tugboat, decommissioned?
  • I don't think it can hurt. I've been asked to link acting in the past, and IMO that one's the closest to an overlink situation.
• The steamer was converted into a tinclad warship.[8] The process of converting a civilian steamer into a tinclad involved bit repetitive
  • Have rephrased the beginning of the second sentence to resolve this
• converting a civilian steamer into a tinclad involved arming the ships bit of a mismatch
  • I've tried to resolve this through rephrasing
• A minor suggestion but another image or two might be nice to break up chunks of text. Assuming there are suitable images of course.
  • I've added one of the Chickasaw Bluffs defenses. Unsure what a second quality image would be. Hog Farm _Talk 21:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

• @HJ Mitchell: - I've made some replies above. Hog Farm _Talk 21:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Harry ? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:40, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm satisfied. Not sold on the necessity of the linking but I'm not going to withhold support over it. Support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Ling

• Five instances of "Missing Identifier/control number, e.g. OCLC", all for the "Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies". Yeah, these are old-ish, 1911-1921, but I did find this: Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion, and it has an OCLC, so maybe you can find them.
• Simons, Don R. (July 13, 2022). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing ISBN;
• Christ, Mark K. (July 7, 2022). Caution: Missing pagenums for book chapter? Missing ISBN;
• Bragg, Marion (1977). Missing ISBN § Lingzhi (talk|check refs) 03:24, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
  • @Lingzhi.Renascence: - thanks for the comments! I've added oclcs for all of the ORN cites. Bragg doesn't have an ISBN, but I've added an oclc (it's a federal government work, so I guess they didn't bother with assigning an ISBN). I don't know that Christ or Simons exist in print form, so there's not page numbers available for those. Hog Farm _Talk 05:02, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
    • Do all 5 of those have the same OCLC? I'm not saying they don't; I'm a little too busy to check at the moment... § Lingzhi (talk|check refs) 00:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
      • From what I can tell, yes; it appears to be treated as a single longer work and a library would be more likely to have a copy of all volumes than a copy of a single volume. Hog Farm _Talk 01:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ling, how is this looking now? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:20, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

(←) All good! § Lingzhi (talk|check refs) 21:43, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.