Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/FIFA World Cup top goalscorers/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 25 August 2018 (UTC) [1].[reply]

FIFA World Cup top goalscorers[edit]

FIFA World Cup top goalscorers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Nergaal (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC); --Cheetah (talk) 01:20, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This list should be topical and it would be nice to have it polished up by the time the next tournament starts. I think it should be a fine FL but if you think otherwise feel free to leave any feedback or take a stab at the list. Thanks! Nergaal (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • The title should be List of FIFA World Cup top goalscorers like List of FIFA World Cup goalscorers and most other lists
    • I personally dislike having "List of X" if just "X" works fine. I prefer tighter titles. Nergaal (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd think most lists could work with "X", but we really ought to go with consistency and WP:LISTNAME; I'd guess most the plural form sounds odd to most since so few articles do it that way.
        • I personally prefer without "List of" simply because it works well without it. If other reviewers think otherwise I'd be fine with moving it. Nergaal (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why does the table in the lead say >50, ≈100, etc? Shouldn't be too difficult to have an exact number.
    • There are exact numbers, but some sources imply there are say 55 footballers, other say 54. Since under 5 goals FIFA does not seem to have a good official record, it's not very clear which source is accurate. For that, and since those numbers tend to change quite a bit every world cup, I thought it's an overly detailed number to give versus how reliable it is. Nergaal (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine then, though is List of FIFA World Cup goalscorers validate one of those sources, at least for the 4 goals?
There is a single ref that seem to give the exact number for 4 and I think it's precise enough to be reliable. Initially the number for 4 was precise, but just for the sake of consistency with the other sub-5 (not listed in this table) I removed it. I'll plug it back in. Nergaal (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In total, 60 footballers came from UEFA (Europe), 26 from CONMEBOL (South America), and only 4 players came from elsewhere:" is not parallel.
Good catch
The second "came" should be removed to be fully parallel since it was left out in the second part.
Changed. Nergaal (talk) 12:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "more goals at all the games played at the World Cup as Stábile" -> "thank Stabile"
fixed
  • "in 1970, and broke" no comma necessary.
fixed
  • "and 1970, and Jürgen", same, unless you put a comma before "with"
fixed
  • "A total of" is extraneous.
Agree, but I dislike starting sentences with numbers, seems weird to me. Any idea how not to start with a number and not use extraneous words? Nergaal (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it sounds perfectly fine just to spell the number out but you could do "Across the 20 tournaments, 29 different footballers..." Note 6 also uses it midsentence, especially unnecessary with "overall" right afterward. Note 7 says "Seven different players", but I don't think seven of the same players is possible. Reywas92Talk 18:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Switched it. Nergaal (talk) 12:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Except for 2010, all the top goalscorers won the Golden Boot." 2010 is a year, not a goalscorer. Reywas92Talk 18:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Changed it. Nergaal (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Reywas92: Thanks for all the feedback. I fixed most of them and left some replies to the others; let me know what you think. Nergaal (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article is getting updated significantly with the 64 matches occurring right now. I was hoping to have this done before, but since it didn't get much feedback, maybe suspend it? Nergaal (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support This list is great.--Lirim | T 22:15, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - according to the description on the image file, the picture alleged to be of Stabile is not in fact him at all - can you clarify? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I removed that picture altogether now. It did look a bit too high res to me when I put it, so it being a reenactment makes sense. Nergaal (talk) 19:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:04, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  • "More than 2,500" instead of "Over 2,500".
fixed
  • " over 1,200 footballers have " same again.
fixed
  • "only 97 of which scored at least five goals" -> "of which just 97 have scored at least five."
fixed
  • Is the article title correct? This is about goals scored in the World Cup finals right, not about goals scored in World Cup qualifiers?
Why wouldn't it be? WC finals/tournament is almost always shortened to WC, while for qualifications you always spell out the qualifications part. Nergaal (talk)
  • "in 1954", "in 1970" etc, should be linked to the tournaments, and rephrased thus: "in the 1954 tournament" and/or "in the 1970 finals" or similar.
fixed
  • "at the 1974 final" there's an article for this.
fixed
  • " single World Cup game" is piped to a redirect.
fixed
  • "The top 90 goalscorers" why top 90?
That was the number before 2018. Updated it. Nergaal (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lots of unnecessary repetition, e.g. "goalscorers .. scoring", "goals scored ... with 13 goals".
I tried to trim a bit of those usages. I hope the remaining sentences still make sense. Nergaal (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bold shouldn't be used as a distinguishing feature as some screen readers don't acknowledge it. Use symbols etc.
fixed
  • "Players with at least 5 goals at the FIFA World Cup tournaments[6] [7]" no space between refs.
fixed
  • "Number of goalscorers[4][5][3]" refs in numerical order.
fixed
  • You link some "international goals" articles or sections of bios, but not all (e.g. Rudi Voller), why?
Added for those that have an actual table of WC goals. Nergaal (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "goals per game" recognised in reliable sources to be significant in World Cup finals goalscorers?
FIFA has "PLAYERS WITH THE BEST AVERAGE OF GOALS PER MATCH" Nergaal (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leônidas is piped to a redirect back to itself.
fixed
  • "1974 – Second round" is piped to a redirect.
I don't understand this. Nergaal (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Australia play "soccer" not "football" in their pipe.
fixed
  • Tables need row and col scopes for ACCESS.
fixed
  • "Players marked with ↑ are still playing for their national teams in the 2018 tournament." is this relevant?
Updated. Nergaal (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(he scored one additional goal in 1934" 1934 is an easter egg link, should be "in the 1934 tournament".
    • This was fixed by Nergaal, he just didn't mention here that he did.Cheetah (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but are now credited" but is now.
fixed
  • " as 7 players scored" -> seven.
fixed
  • Where does, for example this show me that Mandzukic scored five goals in eight games? It seems that FIFA haven't updated for 2018 so anyone listed in your table with a 2018 tournament appearance/goal is currently inadequately referenced.
Yes, people have updated the 2018 numbers (i.e. there are 97 players now with 5+ goals from 90 before). It is unclear to me how to reference the most recent tournament and keep things standardized before FIFA does their updates. The current numbers should be correct, and I tagged the player entries with 2018 numbers. Nergaal (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All 2018 players have the issue of not having "matches played" number updated in the FIFA database. I can't think of an elegant solution to deal with this other than tag along all 2018 players with ↑ and manually add some refs that will eventually become redundant once FIFA decides to update their numbers; or leave the tag and say those numbers are updated after 2018 but links might not. Any ideas? Nergaal (talk) 08:10, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • If ref 119 was published in 2008, it can't verify 2010, 2014 and 2018.
I think I fixed this. Nergaal (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 119 also seems to not reference all the alternative FIFA awards, e.g. where does it confirm that Flórián Albert was Best Young Player?
Added. Nergaal (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's enough for a quick run-through. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed most comments. Will come back later to wrap up the last couple ones. Nergaal (talk) 09:40, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: I think I took care of all the comments. Nergaal (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Does that include fixing the issue of the non-inclusion of the stats from the 2018 tournament? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:39, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: It has been fixed. Crzycheetah added references for the players who scored in 2018, and I added references for the players who played but didn't score. TompaDompa (talk) 17:01, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nergaal has indicated that they have retired from the project, so unless this nomination is adopted within the next few days, I'll archive it. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:47, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note, Nergaal has now been indef blocked. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:37, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adopted I am taking over this nomination, so please @Reywas92:, @ChrisTheDude:, and @The Rambling Man: come and update your comments. Thanks!--Cheetah (talk) 01:20, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not all of my comments were addressed so you'll need to go through those and fix them too. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I found one comment that was not addressed, but Nergaal fixed it, just did not mention it here.Cheetah (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from TompaDompa (talk) 10:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
*"excluding penalties converted during shoot-outs" – "not counting" would be better than "excluding". Also, is "converted" the most common phrasing (intuitively, I'd say "scored", and the linked page seems to corroborate that)?
    • Both phrases are very common among football commentators/experts/players. It depends on a style of a writer/speaker, I'd guess. If you insist, I'll change.
      • I do. I'm guessing it would trip up non-native speakers of English (and native speakers not familiar with the sport's terminology) to a fairly large degree, which would probably be avoided if rephrased. TompaDompa (talk) 19:44, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Rephrased
  • "almost 1,300 footballers have scored goals at the World Cup" – the linked page says over 1,300. What is the actual figure? I also generally prefer "more than X" to "almost Y".
    • I changed it to "more than 1250". In the reference used the last number shown is 1251.
  • A large number of citations have access dates from 2014. Seeing as many of these figures are subject to change, they should be updated (at least for all the players who played in 2018, and other figures that need to be current as of the 2018 World Cup).
  • Since all the other players in the WP:LEAD have their nationality mentioned, Pelé, Jürgen Klinsmann, Oleg Salenko, Josef Hügi, and Ernst Wilimowski should as well.
    • Added
      • The "of [country]" phrasing used for Pelé and Klinsmann is a bit clunky. I'd suggest either using "[country]'s [player]" or saying that they scored goals "for [country]". TompaDompa (talk) 22:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The key for the table should not be hidden in footnotes.
    • A separate key is added
      • The key needs a copyedit. For "#", the word "have" should be removed. For "[ ]" and "( )", they need to be rewritten entirely for grammar and clarity. TompaDompa (talk) 22:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "♦" and "↑" is a pretty unorthodox combination of symbols. It's good that they cannot be confused for each other (unlike say "†" and "‡"), and "♦" is easy to spot on the list, but "↑" is easy to miss at a cursory glance. I don't have any real suggestion for some other combination of symbols, but I think there's room for improvement.
    • Changed ↑ with #. Let me know how it looks now.
  • Thomas Müller's goals per game do not match the number of goals divided by the number of matches. There might be other mismatches. Perhaps the averages should be calculated instead of entered?
    • I am using the Decimals template to avoid such mismatches.
      • Perfect. That's just what I was looking for. TompaDompa (talk) 19:44, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the notes column, some lists of goals are hidden inside footnotes. These should be moved outside the footnotes.
    • Done
  • In the timeline, Sándor Kocsis' eighth goal (i.e. his first goal against Brazil) that tied the record seems to be missing.
    • No, it's not missing. It's listed as a record.
  • In the timeline, I believe Kocsis scored four goals against West Germany, not Germany.
    • Corrected
  • In the timeline, Just Fontaine's thirteenth goal (i.e. his fourth against West Germany) seems to be missing.
    • No, it's not missing. It's listed as a record.
      • You're right. Whether it is visible or not varies depending on the width of the browser window. The difference can be seen here. TompaDompa (talk) 21:31, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The link in reference 112 (as of my writing this) is dead.
    • Fixed

TompaDompa (talk) 13:44, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe all your comments have been resolved, please take another look. Thanks! Cheetah (talk) 08:18, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. List loooks great. TompaDompa (talk) 10:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 00:14, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • This bit of grammar in the lead is awkward: "while Brazil's Jairzinho became in 1970 the only footballer to score at least seven goals without being the top goalscorer of that tournament." Perhaps this would work: "while Brazil's Jairzinho became the only footballer to score at least seven goals without being the top goalscorer of that tournament in 1970."
  • Note 1 needs a reference for Wilimowski having the highest goals-to-games ratio.
  • Note 2: Last word of "but in November 2006 however" could stand to be taken out.
  • Note 5: "After Yugoslavia split" should probably be "After Yugoslavia's split" or "After the split of Yugoslavia" instead.
  • References 20, 59, 95, and 109 have all caps in their titles that should be removed. Also, the hyphens in these titles should be converted into en dashes, and the publisher formatting seems different than the other FIFA refs. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:42, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to your phrasing.
  • Added reference.
  • Removed "however".
  • Changed to "After the breakup of Yugoslavia".
  • Those were the ones I added, and that was the automatically generated formatting. I have fixed it.
I think that should take care of everything. TompaDompa (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you TompaDompa for your help! Giants2008, besides your commenting (much appreciated!), will you do a source review as well?--Cheetah (talk) 23:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – All of my issues have been addressed and I'm confident the list meets FL standards. If it isn't promoted in the next couple of days, I'll do a source review as you requested. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:14, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately, I've become very busy lately and it looks unlikely that I'll be able to review the sources in detail. Perhaps Pres will be willing to do the honors. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:01, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Harrias talk
  • In the Top goalscorers for each tournament table, could we include the country name in the 'World Cup' column. Not everyone is familiar with every country by flag, and it contravenes MOS:FLAG.
  • All images need alt text.
  • Ref #1 uses "fifa.com and a DD Month YYYY retrieval date, unlike any other source; please change for consistency.
  • Author names also need to be made consistent. Ref #5 uses "Owsianski, Jaroslaw", #35 "Glanville, Brian", #122 "Smyth, Rob", #126 "Nihal Kolur", #127 "Danny Wittenberg". There might be others. Make them all the same, one way or the other.

(No prose review carried out.) Harrias talk 19:36, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed; promoting. --PresN 15:54, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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