Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Central Coast Mariners FC players/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by SchroCat 12:30, 28 September 2015 [1].

List of Central Coast Mariners FC players[edit]

List of Central Coast Mariners FC players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Macosal (talk) 12:34, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because the article meets the criteria for a featured list, having being reformatted based on several other similar Featured Lists of football club players such as List of Manchester United F.C. players and List of Liverpool F.C. players. The list was previously Featured in 2007 before this status was removed in 2012. All of the issues raised then have now been fixed. Macosal (talk) 12:34, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Harrias
;Quick comment
  • What reference do you use for the position? Presumably not the one listed in the row, as for Damien Brown, that states that he is a Central Midfielder, not a Utility player, and for Shane Huke a Defender, not a Utility player. (They are the only two I have checked.) Harrias talk 07:09, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Good point - I had listed positions based on the players pages, which had resulted in some slight discrepancies between positions as listed and as sourced. I've now changed all positions to correlate with the source used. Cheers, Macosal (talk) 07:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments
  • The lead could do with some references. I know much of it will be covered by the table references, but the formation of the club, first match etc. could do with supporting references.
  • The lead could stand to be expanded a little too possibly, maybe note which goalkeeper has appeared the most, maybe a bit about the captaincy?
  • In the table, "appearances" might look better above "Starts/Subs/Total" rather than below.
  • Use {{abbr|Ref|Reference}} to display Ref in the table header. Harrias talk 11:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed and done on all points. Macosal (talk) 09:08, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from Mattythewhite (talk) 20:26, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Mattythewhite
  • Could you include an image in the lead?
  • Shouldn't the lead mention the settlement where the club is based, i.e. Gosford?
  • "The club has always played home matches primarily at Central Coast Stadium": "primarily" implies they've played home matches at other grounds. Is this the case? If so, they haven't "always" played home matches there.
  • I feel the lead needs a paragraph that explains what the list includes and how the players are ordered. See this and this to see what I mean.
  • "who has made a total of 262 appearances": take "has" out, as he's retired from playing.
  • Perhaps consider a dedicated Key section, formatted like the lists linked to above?
  • Images are lacking alt text.
  • Per WP:DTAB, a "caption is a table's title, describing its nature". I feel a more descriptive caption for this list would be something like "Table of players, including nationality, playing position and club statistics".
  • I'd change the "Central Coast Mariners career" heading to just "Club career": it's already well established which club we're talking about.
  • I see the lists excludes appearances from Oceania Champions League Qualification matches, which are listed in the references used. Is this not a first-team competition?
  • Nik Mrdja: appears to include his Oceania matches, but not the goals.
  • Don't feel we need commas to separate spells, they're on new lines anyway.
  • Adam Kwasnik: goals differ from ref.
  • Jamie McMaster: nationality differs from ref.
  • Nigel Boogaard: goals differ from ref.
  • Matt Simon: apps differ from ref.
  • Adrian Caceres: nationality differs from ref.
  • Shaun Huke: nationality differs from ref.
  • Chris Doig, a midfielder; really?!
  • Nicholas Fitzgerald: apps differ from ref.
  • Joshua Rose: apps differ from ref.
  • Travis Major: ref doesn't list a nationality. I'd stick in another ref that confirms it.
  • I'm not a fan of including club captains in these player lists, but if you do keep them, I recommend using this format.
  • What makes ALeagueStats.com a WP:RS?

Thanks, Mattythewhite (talk) 16:46, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback - most of which is obviously correct/good improvements and I have now incorporated into the page. On the Oceania qualifying comp., I had previously left this out due to the one-off nature of the competition, but I think you're right - ultimately, it was a competitive, first team competition as recognised by WP:RS and so I have now included it. I've also added a few specific references to players' nationalities/positions. Other responses/reasoning where I haven't undertaken changes:
  • Re having a dedicated key: I get what you're saying, but comparing this list to the two you mention, there is somewhat less specific detail involved, which, in my opinion, would result in too small a key to warrant its own section?
  • I don't think it's too small for its own section, and I think having it as a section would make it more accurately labelled, as it technically isn't part of the list of players. Mattythewhite (talk) 17:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, I've added in the standalone section for now, although I would be interested to see if others agree/disagree. Macosal (talk) 03:53, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • ALeagueStats.com is a highly reliable source - particularly when it comes to appearance statistics. It is one of the few places I have seen on the internet where there is a complete record of all fixtures of A-League clubs (the A-League official website being sadly lacking in its own statistical records) and as such is a highly valuable source for putting together lists such as this.
  • Yes: the site is independent (third-party) and publically available on the internet (published). As for its reputation/accuracy, I would say that I have never known it to be inaccurate, nor have I seen anybody with an opinion other than that the site is reliable and comprehensive. Macosal (talk) 03:53, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers again and hope that this resolves the issues which you have raised, Macosal (talk) 05:54, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just a few more comments: It's recommended we don't wikilink countries, so I'd apply the approach you've used in the Club captains table to the Players table.
I'd move the new refs you've added into the dedicated Ref column. You could explain what the refs are used for by adopting this approach.
Perhaps add a Ref column to the Club captains table? Mattythewhite (talk) 17:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, and have followed through on these suggestions. Macosal (talk) 03:53, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I feel this now meets the criteria. With regards ALeagueStats.com, it appears error-free, well-maintained and comprehensive, so I'm content with its use on this list. One final suggestion: would the nationalities look better left-aligned? Mattythewhite (talk) 20:26, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cheers. Once again I think I agree - the nationalities do look neater when aligned left (although I couldn't find any MoS guideline on this). Thanks again for your suggestions/feedback, Macosal (talk) 11:22, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps @Daniel: would be interested in commenting on this nomination, as the user who first nominated it in April 2007? Mattythewhite (talk) 16:59, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Thisisnotatest (talk) 20:26, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
*Comment I have a concern about the accessibility of complex tables (grouped columns). I'm not sure there is consensus among accessibility experts on Wikipedia as to whether complex tables pose a problem. I would prefer that the table be simplified (ungroup the three play columns) to guarantee that all screen readers will read the appropriate column headings aloud as their blind user navigates the tables. Thisisnotatest (talk) 11:26, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I get your concern, but I'm not sure that I agree. There are already several featured lists which use this format (see e.g. List of Liverpool F.C. players or List of Manchester United F.C. players). I think the table as you edited it is not particularly neat, with quite wide columns containing only 1-2 digit numbers. I think that's my position. Then again, I do get your accessibility issue and would be happy to see if this is the view of people who would be better informed than myself about accessibility issues. Macosal (talk) 11:33, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment - just spitballing here, but does the word "appearances" need to be included? The subheadings are already comprehensively discussed in the key. If not, then maybe the solution is to remove the word appearances altogether, improving accessibility and keeping the columns tight. Macosal (talk) 11:35, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I quite like it without the header spanning several columns; I don't think the "appearances" bit is necessary since it's obvious what the meaning of the columns are. If the columns would appear too wide on their own they can be forced to a certain width to be a little narrower for aesthetics, which I don't believe will affect accessibility (although, as I viewed it here, the only column that really seemed wider than it needed to be was the "total appearances" one, and I think just dropping the title to "total" would bring it in without needing to specify a width). GRAPPLE X 15:56, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Macosal (talk) 00:44, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Macosal: Thank you for fixing the page and I have struck out my comment. Just for the record, in the two pages cited, Appearances appears below the other headings, so "Starts" "Subs" or "Total" would be read aloud by a screen reader when a visitor navigated to those columns further down the table. So keeping or removing "Appearances" on those pages would be a matter of aesthetics. But if someone were to move "Appearances" above "Starts" "Subs" or "Total", it would become a matter of accessibility. Anyway, all sorted. Thisisnotatest (talk) 08:46, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brief comments:
    Why is the Hutchinson image alone in using a reference in the caption? The information mentioned is cited in the table so I feel it's unnecessary, and removing it would be more uniform.
    Although the table does list Wilkinson as having the second most appearances, this can't be assumed to mean he was the previous record holder for the club before Hutchinson (they could feasibly both have simultaneously exceeded a previous record before Hutchinson then took the lead, for example, or a previous record could have been beaten by Hutchinson, then by Wilkinson who rose to second). A reference to back up in no uncertain terms that the latter did hold the record would be ideal here.
    Apart from looking at these I'm happy with the overall shape of the article here. GRAPPLE X 08:22, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cheers, have removed the reference in the caption and reworded the sentence such that it is now reflected by the sources used. Macosal (talk) 08:51, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That works. If you do turn up a source crediting Wilkinson as being the most capped in his time then by all means, the old wording supported with that would be ideal, but as it is now it's also grand. Happy to support this one. GRAPPLE X 09:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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