Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for Switzerland/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Hahc21 10:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for Switzerland[edit]

List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for Switzerland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Anthony (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because it passed peer review (albeit a while ago), and it was modeled after two successful hockey FLs, List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for Canada and List of Men's World Ice Hockey Championship players for Canada (1977–present). Perhaps we can get the Big Seven lists done before Sochi 2014. Anthony (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Rejectwater (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Alt texts. Every image has to have one. See WP:ALT.
  • All tables, including key tables, have to comply with MOS:DTT. Caption text, scope=row, scope=col, all jump out at me, although that is not meant to be an exhaustive list.
  • I don't think those key tables crack the nut. They don't have any column headers and there are multiple columns stacked next to each other.Rejectwater (talk) 23:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Are you sure? They're set up the same as the other tables. Maybe I'm not seeing something. Please advise, thanks. Anthony (talk) 14:50, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I went ahead and updated the tables. I figured with all the page creation you have going on it would be easier this way. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Rejectwater (talk) 13:36, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note 2 has an unknown parameter error.
  • Redlinks- all these players are notable, just without Wiki articles yet? Rejectwater (talk) 20:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Working on creating at least stubs for most of them. Some of them are difficult to get lots of information on, though. Anthony (talk) 15:14, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't be better to just unlink them than create countless stubs with no future of being expanded beyond "player X (1-2-19xx) was a Swiss ice hockey player who represented the national team in X year." doesn't seem to be serving the encyclopedia if all the player page is goin to say is the same as the list. Seems to me the easiest solution is probably the best even if these players do meet general notability guidelines IMO.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 15:47, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would have to agree de-linking is a better option. Rejectwater (talk) 23:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comment from Rejectwater: What about using the {{portalbar}} template for the portals, say at the bottom of the page (for the portal links)? I think that would clean up the page, help with visual appeal. Regards, Rejectwater (talk) 15:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I believe the redlink issue has been sufficiently addressed to pass the "minimal proportion" standard and I believe all other criteria are met as well. Regards, Rejectwater (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 22:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
*Oppose – Traditionally, FLC has looked for "a minimal proportion" of red links under FL criterion 5a. Right now, about half of the players have red links, which is far too many to say that their proportion is minimal. I don't like doing this, but I feel that the criterion doesn't leave me much choice but to oppose for now. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yep, if those red-linked players fulfil WP:N then they need an article. Also there are a number of unlinked players, why don't they meet WP:N and have an article or a red-link? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Woah, we may be working at cross purposes here. Mo Rock and I have recommended having those players unlinked- you're saying that they should be redlinked? Let me try to get us on the same page here - first off we need to establish whether or not the unlinked and redlinked names belong to notable individuals. If they're notable, they should either have an article or be redlinked (however too many redlinks sinks the nom). And if they're not notable, what then? They shouldn't be listed at all? Rejectwater (talk) 21:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • While all of the players technically meet WP:NHOCKEY I fail to see the benefit of creating articles that tell the reader approximately the same thing as the list and have basically no chance for expansion. For example what does this page (Arnold Martignoni) really do for the encyclopedia as a whole? it has been around since 2007 the same state except for one image. --Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 03:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • I would like to know how to proceed with this. I unlinked the redlinked goalies, but I stopped before I got to the players until this issue is resolved. I will either unlink the redlinked players, or give the redlinked players stub articles. But I won't unlink some and leave others redlinked, that won't suffice. Please advise. Anthony (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • I see that good progress is being made with the red links. With some more articles towards the bottom of the list, I'd feel comfortable dropping my opposition. I was asked for further comments on my talk page and here they are:
              • Less than 20% of the players names are redlinked, and I'm still working. Is this sufficient for your approval? Anthony (talk) 15:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • The em dashes in the third paragraph should all be unspaced per the MoS, or you could make them smaller en dashes. The spaced em dashes, however, are a style no-no.
              • The IIHF should be spelled out in its lone usage. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:15, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]


I'm not sure, but I seemed to recall that representing one's country in the Olympics conferred sufficient notability in Wikipedia for an article. To that end, if any player on this list did play for Switzerland, then they are notable, and should be linked. If some were selected and didn't play (and this was their only notable achievement in their lifetimes) then I suppose they should be unlinked. I agree that one-line stub articles are sub-optimal, but our criteria here need there to be a "minimal proportion of red links". How you move on from here is entirely up you guys. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go: "Athletes from any sport are presumed notable if they have competed at the Summer or Winter Olympic games..." from WP:NOLYMPICS. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've un-delinked (relinked?) the goaltender articles. I'll work on trying to stub most of them so they don't stick out so much. Since that's an ongoing process and will get done eventually, are there any other glaring issues? If there's nothing else then I can just focus on article creation. Anthony (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't reviewed the list yet, I was just trying to help you understand more fully the concerns raised above regarding the links. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Have you had a chance to review? So far there's just the one oppose vote, but I've fixed just about all the issues except for the article creation (and I'm working on it). Anthony (talk) 14:50, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In my opinion, most of the second paragraph is not appropriate for this page; only the last sentence. The rest discusses Olympic history and how it affected Canada's Olympic hockey teams. 74.12.176.198 (talk) 03:54, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Only 2 lines reference Canada. The paragraph is discussing the IIHF allowing NHL players to participate in the Olympics, which was (and is) a monumental shift in Olympic ice hockey history (and was instigated by Canada's boycott). Admittedly the paragraph was taken from the List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for Canada, but it's equally applicable to Switzerland, and all Olympic lists, in my opinion. Anthony (talk) 13:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • How did the inability to send NHL players to the Olympics impact Switzerland? Were there any Swiss players in the NHL? Also the statement that professional players of other leagues were not able to compete is incorrect. Swiss players from the NLA were permitted at the Olympics prior to 1988. Alfio Molina and Aldo Zenhäusern are two counter examples. 74.12.176.198 (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • I know it's difficult for North American articles, but WP:HASH suggests we don't use the hash symbol to replace "number".
    • Fixed.
  • "The NHL decided not to allow all players" -> "The NHL disallowed all its players..."
    • Fixed.
  • " in 1928 and 1948" just to avoid a vague Easter egg scenario, maybe "in the 1928 and 1948 Games", linking "1928" and "1948 Games"?
    • I'm afraid I don't understand "vague Easter egg scenario", please explain. I think I clarified the sentence a little anyway.
  • Goaltenders has a completely empty Notes column.
    • In the future, if one of the goaltenders is named to a Hall of Fame or wins another award, it will go in the Notes column. It's there to match the Skaters table.
  • Make sure statistics in a given column are all given to the same precision, e.g. GAA has "0" and "4" and "8.5" and "2.83"...
    • Fixed.
  • Min or MIN?
    • Fixed.
  • "Number of Olympics" Do you mean "Number of appearances at the Olympics"?
    • Fixed.
  • Ordinarily we don't force image sizes, besides those in the lead, other than to say either thumb or upright.
    • I didn't see any images with forced image sizes. They all have "thumb", but no sizes.
  • Again, see no point in completely empty columns in tables, e.g. in the Reserve goaltender table.
    • I removed the Notes column from the Reserve goaltender table, although it is the only one without it now.
  • "Bjorn Christen" is missing an umlaut. As is "Aldo Zenhausern"
    • Fixed.
  • "[10][9][78]" would be preferable in numerical order. Check others.
    • Fixed.

The Rambling Man (talk) 15:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I fixed the concerns that needed fixing. But as I said, the Notes column is there for consistency, even if it's empty at the moment. Anthony (talk) 17:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Harrias
* No problem from me on the current proportion of red links to blue links, I think it is at an acceptable level.
  • "The NHL disallowed all its players to participate in 1988.." would be better re-written as "The NHL did not allow its players to participate in 1988.."
    • Fixed.
  • "National teams are co-ordinated by the Swiss Ice Hockey Association and players are chosen by the team's management staff." I think it is worth reiterating that this is about the Swiss team, because the paragraph is very long with no information about Switzerland until this point. Therefore, I would start it as "The Swiss national team is co-ordinated by.."
    • Fixed.
  • "Torriani is the only player to win multiple medals, .." I think would be better written as, "Torriani is the only player who won medals as part of both the 1928 and 1948 teams." Although this is less critical than those points above.
    • Fixed
  • Given that in this list the only Hall of Fame mentioned is the International Ice Hockey Hall of Fame, would it be possible to only use "HOF" as the abbreviation, rather than the rather cumbersome "IIHFHOF"?
    • I've never seen it abbreviated as such, especially to differentiate from the HOF in Toronto. It's not that cumbersome, IMHO.
      • No worries, it was just a thought. Harrias talk 09:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Number of appearances at Olympics" seems a little ambiguous to me. The first thing I though when I read it was "Well, all the appearances on the list are surely at the Olympics, as the article is all about that." It might be better explained as "Number of Olympic Games tournaments" Or something similar?
    • Fixed.
  • Be consistent in the date format used for the references, Ref #1 uses YYYY-MM-DD, Ref #2 Month DD, YYYY, while Ref #3 doesn't have an access date or publisher listed at all.
    • Fixed.
  • Refs #4 and #5 need page numbers. Harrias talk 16:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't have page numbers - the ref was taken from the Canada FLC page. As it's an older newspaper I don't have access to the archives. If anyone does, I welcome the addition. Anthony (talk) 01:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Here's an online version of the the NYT article, although after reading it I don't see why it was used as a reference. 76.70.45.246 (talk) 02:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree, that article does not support seem to support anything in the sentence before it. As such, I feel that I can not assume good faith for the other offline source, particularly as I infer that you have not read these sources yourself? I would remove ref #4 altogether, as the information in the preceding sentences is provided in the online ref #3. However, for the next sentence, the articles states, "In 1986, the IOC voted to allow all athletes to compete in Olympic Games, starting in 1988." While the source says, "After the 1988 Games, the IOC voted to declare all professionals eligible for the Olympics, subject to the approval of the international federations in charge of each sport." Harrias talk 09:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • I found a few new sources and put them in the appropriate places. Hopefully this can resolve the issue, because I admit I wasn't crazy about copying sources I hadn't seen. But I had assumed good faith for the offline source, as I had copied it from another FLC. It's moot now :) Anthony (talk) 14:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In general the third paragraph has the feel of a string of bullet points simply put together in a paragraph, and could use some work to make it flow a little better in my opinion.
    • Unsure how best to do that, as all other similar lists have a similar paragraph naming most points/games/medals etc. It's a statistical list, which makes it difficult to work into prose. I'm open to suggestions though.
      • Move the "Torriani is the only" sentence to be the second sentence and remove the 1928 and 1948 as redundant. Maybe add something like "27 players won medals in those tournaments; Bibi Torriani is the only..." at the beginning to the sentence. For the IIHHOF sentence, maybe start it off with Torriani, then mention the other three, also note the Cattini's are brothers (player pages at Sports Reference can be an online source for that). These segues, I think, will provide better flow. Some ideas to kick around if nothing else. Rejectwater (talk)
        • Made the suggested edits. See how it works now. Anthony (talk) 14:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Harrias talk
  • As none of the goaltenders have any notes, it would be as well to remove that column: it can always be added back if needed.
  • Similarly for the medals column for the reserve goaltenders.
    • As I said in The Rambling Man's comments above, I removed the notes column from the reserve goaltenders, thus making it the only one that doesn't have one. But for consistency's sake, I kept the medals column in all three, and the Notes column in the goaltenders. I feel it's better to have it for all of them and leave most of it blank, then to have it for skaters only. One day a goalie might make it into the IIHFHOF and then we'll have to create a whole new column just for that, which is a pain.
  • Support, I've left the above comment about the columns outside the resolved comments box, because it isn't resolved! That said, it is a minor enough issue that while I still think it would be better without those columns, I can accept that you think it is better with them, and it certainly isn't enough of a problem for me not to offer my support. Nice work, and thanks for responding to my comments so quickly and politely. Harrias talk 14:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - after all the comments above, it's now looking quite good. Only comment- "1928 Games and 1948 Games[6];" -> "1928 Games and 1948 Games;[6]". --PresN 23:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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