Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Vancouver Whitecaps FC players/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 18:42, 6 December 2012 [1].

List of Vancouver Whitecaps FC players[edit]

List of Vancouver Whitecaps FC players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): – Nurmsook! talk... 04:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I went through this article and brought it up to a standard that is fairly consistent with other featured lists of this type. This list was modeled after List of Seattle Sounders FC players, which is a Featured List. Hopefully you will agree, but I am here for any changes necessary! – Nurmsook! talk... 04:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from TBrandley (talk) 21:31, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Alt text needs to be added to the images, per MOS:IMAGES and WP:ALT
  • When writing standard abbreviations, the abbreviations should not have a 's' to demark plurality (for example, change kms to km and lbs to lb).
  • Add scope rows for WP:ACCESS in the tables
  • I fixed some issues myself

TBrandley 15:20, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thanks for the comments. I addressed the first and third points, but was not sure what you meant by the second. I did not see any instances of abbreviations with a 's' to demark plurality. Any specific example from the article? – Nurmsook! talk... 15:37, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • That one was just bot-generated, don't worry about it. Also, you didn't put the correct alts in. "It should summarize an image's purpose, and should not duplicate its caption." Other than that, it looks good, good work! TBrandley 15:40, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Made further changes to the alt text. You'll have to forgive me, it's been a few years since I've gone through the FA/FL process, and back then alt text never came up. Let me know if this is sufficient. – Nurmsook! talk... 20:20, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 20:54, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  • Lead is too short, would expect at least two fairly decent size paragraphs
  • I'm not sure why you have a separate table for goalkeepers, there should just be one table with all players in regardless of position
  • Position column should sort by position, not alphabetically as it currently does
  • You should use {{dagger}} instead of the normal dagger, as those using screen readers cannot identify the standard symbol
  • I don't think that contents box is needed, no point when the majority of the table is visible anyway
  • Personally I would structure the table to something along these lines
  • My biggest concern is what is referencing the table. The general link does not provide any info on appearances, so the table is effectively unreferenced
  • Not sure you need the colour and symbols actually. It is evident by the year column what players are still at the club, as they will have a dash next to the year
  • Table needs rowscopes per MOS:DTT

NapHit (talk) 18:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Alright let's see if I can cover this all off.
1) I expanded the lead a bit, but please let me know if you have any suggestions as to what should be included.
I think its just about ok now. As the club was only formed a few years ago, I'm not sure what more you could include. NapHit (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
2) I joined the goalkeepers into the main table (Sounders FC had them separate, but I suppose it makes more sense to keep it all in one).
3) Sorted the position column by position.
4) Got rid of the current players dagger/color scheme.
5) Got rid of contents box; you're right, the table is far too short for it right now.
6) I decided to keep the structure as is. I think it is beneficial to the reader to keep the stats separated by competition, similar to how things are done in player articles. To each his own I suppose.
Not a problem, but there is no point having the MLS and CCL cup columns when none of the players have appeared in it. NapHit (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
7) I've added another reference, and made the existing one more specific. I can't find an "all-time roster" list online, so for now, statistics databases are the best alternative (unless I reference each individual player?).
I think it would be preferable to individually reference every player, as those pages have the appropriate details. One detail they don't have though is the CCL stats, which need sourcing as well. Just noticed Soccerway does, so would individually ref using both whitecaps and soccer way sites NapHit (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
8) See #4
9) Added rowscopes.
Here's hoping this satisfies all of your concerns! Thanks for the comments! – Nurmsook! talk... 02:31, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the two blank columns and added individual references. – Nurmsook! talk... 18:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support meets the criteria. NapHit (talk) 02:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "Whitecaps FC began playing competitive soccer in the 2011 season. It plays its home games at BC Place, competing in the Western Conference of MLS." reads choppy to me, could you elegantly merge these sentences?
  • I always thought it was "distinct from" not "distinct to"...
  • No need to link France for French.
  • "As of October 22, 2011" but the statistics in the table are "as of October 2, 2012" so shouldn't this part of the lead be updated? E.g., three keepers have been used now.
  • I would force Klazura to sort as if he had played zero games, right now he sorts as having played the most games etc because of the em-dash.
  • Don't like the two empty cells in the key table.
  • Key table isn't accessible.
  • Don't need "Vancouver Whitecaps" as a category (and shouldn't that be "Vancouver Whitecaps FC" in any case?) as you have a more refined Vancouver Whitecaps FC players category.

The Rambling Man (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the comments. I believe I have addressed all of your concerns. – Nurmsook! talk... 18:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Crisco 1492 (talk)
;Comments from Crisco 1492
  • Your newspapers should be in the work parameter, not the publisher parameter
  • Is linking BC really necessary? I think that would constitute a major geographical designation, per WP:OVERLINKING.
 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:14, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made the changes to the newspapers, but left BC linked. I don't really think provinces or states are major geographical designations, outside of the countries they are located within. – Nurmsook! talk... 20:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Arsenikk (talk)
  • You are free to make the lead image larger, but please make it 300px so people who have set their default image size to 300px don't get a smaller image.
  • Could you link the names of players in the captions.
  • Although the first sentence contains a lot of important information, it is too long to read comfortably.
  • In my opinion, BC is obscure enough that it does not constitute a "major geographical designation" (per Crisco's comments above) and I support its linking. It is also directly relevant to the scope of the article rather than being mentioned in passing.
  • Could you mention that Vancouver is in Canada.
  • Digits and named numbers should not be mixed in the same sentence, so either "3 goalkeepers and 45 outfield..." or "three goalkeepers and forty-five outfield..."
  • Countries should not be linked; although tables are permitted to relink, they are still not permitted to overlink.
  • Please include a "total" row for caps and goals for the combined MLS and CC matches.
  • Any chance you could create a stub on Caleb Clarke? One missing red link draws down the table a little.

Otherwise looks nice. Arsenikk (talk) 16:45, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. I addressed all of the comments you made except for mentioning that Vancouver is in Canada (I think that this is addressed in the opening sentence, "Vancouver Whitecaps FC is a Canadian soccer club..."). I also left the countries all linked. Perhaps you can chime in more about this but in almost every FL players article similar to this that I have seen, the countries are always linked. If you could just elaborate on why the links need to be removed, I'll address that. – Nurmsook! talk... 22:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't link countries because the MOS says so and because links to countries provide very little value. Take a look at Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates/Archive 16#linking countries in tables. WP:OVERLINK is very specific about countries being linked is not permitted except with good cause. Tables are allowed to repeat links, but unnecessary links cannot be introduced just because they are in a table. Do you not find it odd that 'Canada' is not linked in the lead, despite that it is of high context for the topic, while every nationality for every player is linked? Arsenikk (talk) 19:25, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly see where you are coming from, but even in the brief discussion that you linked there really did not seem to be any consensus, considering the widespread use of this template in tables. If this is a true stinging point, a pass/fail point if you will, then I suppose the change might be necessary. However, when I look at current nominations, recent promoted FLCs, and existing FLs, there is a trend to stick with this (List of Queens Park Rangers F.C. players for instance). Because of that, unless other users think this is a stinging point, I'm going to follow their lead and IAR this, although it seems to me that regardless of the MOS policy, the consensus is that linking countries in this type of table is relevant, particularly when you consider that many of these players have international caps for those countries. That's just my opinion on the matter anyways; this issue never seems to be consistent. – Nurmsook! talk... 20:27, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for non-compliance with the Manual of Style. Arsenikk (talk) 22:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this issue? Giants2008 (Talk) 18:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not too worried about the countries being linked. It's hard, in this case, to definitively state that Ghana or Malta or Gambia should be linked while Scotland and England and China shouldn't. I'd suggest all are linked or none are linked. And given how useful links to the former places may be for our global audience, I'd suggest linking all countries, as otherwise it'd look very strange. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, looks a good list to me, and the prose is fine. Harrias talk 18:10, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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