Wikipedia:Peer review/1956 FA Cup Final/archive1

1956 FA Cup Final

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for October 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Or as most people know it, the game where the goalie broke his neck. Myself and Struway2 have been working on this article, to the point where it is now a GA. We're now looking for comments with a view to bringing it to FAC in future. Comments from non-football fans particularly welcome. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Jameboy (talk · contribs)

Consider working in a link to FA Cup 1955-56 (which is effectively a parent of this article, and I can't see a link to it). This could maybe fit in in the lead e.g. "...was the final match of the 1955–56 FA Cup competition", and/or in the "Route to the final" section (would be good as a see also section hatnote here). I have other wiki-stuff to catch up on but will try to have a thorough read-through of the article sometime in the next few days. --Jameboy (talk) 18:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Added the hatnote for now, the lead needs expanding so it might well end up in there. Sorry didn't respond sooner, for some reason (incompetence, presumably :-) this PR wasn't on my watchlist. Struway2 (talk) 13:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)

• You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC. The sourcing looks good.

Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 14:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: Very briefly, here are some suggestions for improvement - it looks very good to me, so these are nit picks. If you want more comments, please ask here.

• The lead seems a bit short to me, I think it could be expanded a bit.
  • being worked on...
• Not everyone knows what the FA stands for, perhaps spell it out.
  • spelt out the full official name of the FA Cup
• Nowadays seems a bit folksy in The match is best remembered nowadays for the heroics of Manchester City's goalkeeper, Bert Trautmann...
• Explain why these somgs had resonance and which for which team in As the teams prepared in the dressing rooms, the crowd was led in communal singing, including songs with resonance for each of the two teams, "She's a lassie from Lancashire" and "Keep right on to the end of the road",[25] and the traditional hymn "Abide with Me".
  • Significance of "Keep right on" is explained in the Route to the final section; explained and ref'd "Abide with me"; "She's a lassie from Lancashire" I'll have to leave to the ManC half of the editorship.
    • There's not much to add other than that Manchester is in Lancashire (or at least was in 1956). Oldelpaso (talk) 16:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• Any chance of a fair use photo of the match or team(s)?
  • I wondered whether a pic of the Trautmann incident might be justifiable as fair use, worth thinking about.

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the trouble to comment, cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Peanut4 (talk · contribs)

• I think the lead is a tad on the short side per WP:LEAD. It includes nothing from "Route to the final", "Build-up" and "Post-match" sections.
  • was hoping the ManC half of the editorship would return from internetlessness and expand it, as he writes rather better than I do, but might have to have a go at it myself...
    • update: have started expanding it
• If you're heading for FAC, ensure all numerals and units are broken by non-breaking spaces, e.g. 10 seconds. I've done a couple, but there may be more.
  • done one or two more, the 3s 6d was the bad one I'd missed. Though as far as I can tell, the MoS only requires the nbsp between number and abbreviated unit or symbol, or to avoid confusion at a line break, not every time there's a number; does FAC view it differently?
• "Blackpool took the lead after only 10 seconds (their fastest ever goal)," "their fastest ever goal" is probably worth removing from brackets for such a fact.
  • done
• "Further controversy followed in the semi-final against Tottenham Hotspur, when, with the score at 1–0 to Manchester City, Tottenham were denied a penalty after goalkeeper Bert Trautmann grabbed forward George Robb's leg." Possibly worth saying the game finished 1-0 in the text.
  • thinking about how to word it
• "Against Arsenal on a muddy pitch, after first-half goals from Gordon Astall and Murphy, Birmingham went 3–0 up through Brown with 20 minutes left; two minutes later, Arsenal scored from 30 yards, Birmingham were unsettled, and Merrick needed to make a fine save from Vic Groves." Maybe add it was the sixth round to improve the flow.
  • done
• It could be worth splitting the "Route to the final" into two sections; one for each club; since that is the way it is written.
  • thinking about have split, but haven't decided whether I like it :-)
• FWA Footballer of the Year; probably writing FWA out in full. I know it's wikilinked but it's best to keep people on this page rather than clicking away if you can help it.
  • changed to just Footballer of the Year, there only was the one award in 1956 (i think)
• "The system involved using Don Revie in a deeper position than a traditional centre-forward in order to draw a defender out of position, and was therefore known as the "Revie Plan"." Could do with a reference.
  • moved relevant reference to end of paragraph
• "However, Trautmann, dazed and unsteady on his feet, insisted upon keeping his goal. He played out the remaining minutes in great pain, with the Manchester City defenders attempting to clear the ball well upfield or into the stand whenever it came near. Trautmann was called upon to make two further saves, each of which caused him to reel in agony." Could also do with referencing.
  • Done, with slight rewording to fit the ref more accurately. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• "Three days later, an examination revealed that Trautmann had broken a bone in his neck." As widely known as it is, again could do with a reference. Ah, I see a post-match section with more details, so should be fine!
  • done anyway; should be ref'd here as well

Hope this helps. Peanut4 (talk) 22:58, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• • Thanks for taking the time and trouble to review it. I've dealt with the quick and easy bits; the Trautmann bit presumably comes from one of Oldelpaso's books, so that will have to wait till he's back. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 20:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Will give this a small copy edit and review when I have the time. But I just thought I'd let you know I have an old video about the F.A cup final (which I've already used in the 1923 final's article) where they talk briefly about this final. So I can add some info from that if you want. BUC (talk) 09:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

If your video has anything useful to add in areas where you think we need more info, then it would be much appreciated. thanks, Struway2 (talk) 12:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

As to your copyediting, some of it read better before your changes, so those bits I'm going to restore or rewrite as appropriate, but you've certainly flagged up some places where it did read awkwardly, so thanks for taking the trouble!! Particular thanks for the push and run link, I was worried about using the term "one-two" with neither link nor explanation, and for rearranging the Arsenal match/keep right on paragraph into a sensible order. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)