Wikipedia:Peer review/Advance Australia Fair/archive1

Advance Australia Fair

I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to see how far away this is from a possible run at GAN. I believe that the content is relatively comprehensive (although I have yet to check all the sources), but I would especially appreciate a peer reviewer from an Australia to help clarify whether the article is balanced and neutral, or if there are glaring inconsistencies or undue weight given towards certain parts (particularly in the unofficial variants section). If you're wondering why an American is working on the Australian anthem, just trying to see an old project at WP:TSQUAD to its end.

Thanks, bibliomaniac15 18:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• You're right it does need some work. My thoughts:

Lead

• First up is the Lead: it should have about 3–4 ¶¶.
• Resolve contradictions between the Lead and main text:

1. Currently the Lead implies the anthem is the same as McCormick's original.
2. It also implies "God Save the Queen" is no longer used as an anthem in Australia.

• Infobox: the image needs a caption. Although not compulsory at GAN, an alt text entry would help some users.

More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

• • After going through the main text, I see that the infobox is inaccurate and incomplete. Consider changing/adding the following: | published = {{start date|df=y|1878|12}} | adopted = {{start date|df=y|1974|4}} | readopted = {{start date|df=y|1984|4|19}} | until = {{start date|df=y|1976|1}} | predecessor = "[[God Save the Queen]]" Both lyrics_date and music_date require a ref (in the main text) for when they were written c.f. first published/performed. Otherwise a ca. 1878, might be used.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:41, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure now. Check the talkpage, especially the section: Issues with the history of the official anthem. Perhaps further opinions are required before making the above changes.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Clearly, issues with the lead and infobox will first require the contents of the article body to be further worked on. bibliomaniac15 03:43, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Origin

• How do we know it was created in 1878, which is claimed in the infobox? It was first publicly performed in that year, but it may have been written earlier? The quote from the letter by McCormick does not define when it was written.
• Check sound file description, "Performed in 1915." c.f. "The earliest known sound recording of "Advance Australia Fair" appears in The Landing of the Australian Troops in Egypt (circa 1916)," Is there a time-line conflict here?
• "Composed under the name "Amicus"" vs AuDB source which has, "As 'Amicus' he later had the music and four verses published by W. H. Paling & Co. Ltd." This is days after it was first performed by Fairfax and thus after it had been composed. (see here).
  • I don't necessarily see a contradiction here. Adding the link you shared, it's clear that McCormick simply wanted his penname attached to the song in general, whether in performance or in publication.

More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Competitions,...

• Check sound file, something appears incorrect there. description = First vocal performance in 1927 First known vocal performance was in November 1878.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
  • done, properly labeled as a performance by Peter Dawson (bass-baritone)
• In 1973, Gough Whitlam > In January of that year, he Whitlam and year have already been referenced earlier in the ¶.
  • done
• wL Australia Day
  • done
• At end of 1st ¶, check ref's archiveurl try this instead.
  • done
• Note this source has "In 1974 'Advance Australia Fair' was adopted as the Australian National Anthem; however in 1976 'God Save The Queen' was reinstated." Both the Lead and the infobox may need to be amended to reflect this.
• Note: "verses as drafted by the National Australia Day Council" in 1984, provides a source for the variation to the original McCormick version.
• ""Advance Australia Fair" was chosen and became enshrined as the national song," Do we have a month in the year 1974? It was being used by April for non-regal events. (see here).
  • Try here.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• trim for the Prime Minister Gough Whitlam per previous.

More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:56, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Orchestral...

• Provide independent refs for arrangement by Tycho and being commissioned by ABC: both current sources are not independent. Consider this and this.
  • Haven't been able to find independent refs so far for the commissioning. I like the news article you posted but I'm not certain whether the version televised in that account (which seems to have taken place on New Years Day rather than Australia Day as wiki suggests) is in fact the current popular orchestral version.

Lyrics

• Recognition of National Australia Day Council modifications per ref above should be mentioned here.

Development...

• For "Revised and improved" version, here. Has both a three-part version and a four-part one.
  • Examining this source, it's actually just the OG four part version. It's just that the 3rd and 4th stanzas are on different pages that would have both been visible in an "open-book" scenario (left and right pages). The SATB page at the end confirms this view.
• See here for amendment to McCormick's 3rd verse for 1913 naming of Canberra ceremony.12:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Good find. I also notice that the fourth verse was changed from the original in both of the sources you found: "Britannia then shall surely know,/Though oceans roll between,/Her sons in fair Australia's land/Still keep their courage green" was changed to "Britannia then shall surely know/Beyond wide ocean's toll/Her sons in fair Australia's land/Still keep a British soul."

More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

• Fix the original lyrics were written in 1879, was kept largely as the 1879 original and original lyrics published in 1879 Shouldn't original be 1878? Or is this referring to the 2nd edition? If so, is it the original?

Copyright

• This ¶ seems too small for a separate section. Information could be included elsewhere, perhaps in origin.
  • Moved to the origin

Criticism

• Consider combining with next section to reduce redundancy/repetition.
• Try to get ¶ sizes to be more similar in size.
• De-link 2nd appearance of terra nulius.
  • done
• Verify and specify, "In recent years, public debate" Historically there seems to have been considerable public debate, back in the 1970s and 1980s over the anthem. Similar public debates over the anthem flared up during the Australia as a Republic issue in the 1990s, which resulted in a referendum in 1999. Likewise debates over Indigenous rights, recognition and reconciliation have also touched on the anthem for decades.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• Chronological problems: clarify Hawke endorsed Peter Vickery's alternative lyrics in light of information in next section. As it is, this phrase is confusing to anyone reading sequentially and does not know what these alternative lyrics are.
  • Good catch, shifted it down

Unofficial...

• the Seekers
• Adjust external link in Recognition in Anthem Project. May need a better more independent source.
• Reduce length of 3rd ¶.

More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:32, 3 May 2020 (UTC) More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:32, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

References

1. wL the following:
   1. [[Melbourne University Publishing|Melbourne University Press]]
   2. National Centre of Biography, [[Australian National University]]
2. A description of the source rather than a directly checkable view of the quote.
   1. Adjust the title entry: | title = Letters [manuscript]: 2. Letter, 1913 Aug. 1, Waverley [N.S.W.] to R. B. Fuller /​ P. D. McCormick
   2. Note at end of ref should be replaced by a quote entry inside the ref per: | quote = Summary: Includes a letter containing an explanation of the composition of 'Advance Australia Fair' and a discussion of Australian patriotism.
3. wL National Film and Sound Archive and italics title.
4. dL National Film and Sound Archive, linked first time in section (see above).
5. wL The Sydney Morning Herald
6. wL Whitlam, G via authorlink or [[Gough Whitlam|Whitlam, G]] More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 09:57, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
7. Change archiveurl per above. More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC) Expand publisher detail and wL, where not previously linked.
8. wL author and work. Also consider replacing by an online source: here.
9. add author: Parliamentary Library Web Manager. add & wL work: [[Australian Parliamentary Handbook]]
10. dL publisher: linked previously. Add author. Add work (not linked).
11. Remove website, change & wL publisher: Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Australian Government) More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:05, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
12. Not an independent source. Find a better one.
13. Not an independent source. Find a better one.
14. Add (Australian Government) to publisher. Note source has, "The judges selected six entries for the words, but rejected all the musical entries, but rejected all the musical entries." However article has "none of the new entries was felt worthy enough." This apparent contradiction should be addressed. Furthermore this source provides a brief description of the proposed alternatives and earlier efforts to establish a national anthem. Some of which, could be included in the article's History section.
15. dL previously linked term(s). Add single quotes around song title, i.e., 'Advance Australia Fair', when inside a ref title.
16. As above. Additionally, lead-in sentence needs rewording. This source shows the 2nd edition version and as such it may be different from what was originally written, sung and published. Do any sources provide the 1st edition version?
17. Fix archiveurl per ref [7]. BTW, is this same site and content? If so, you should be able to combine them with a ref tab.
18. wL website/work to the Australian version of the newspaper. Delete unnecessary entry on language= More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
19. add author. Note: this sources describes Peter Vickery, "[who] changed the second line of verse one from, For we are young and free to In peace and harmony." c.f. Deborah Cheetham, in the article's text, "request to replace the words "for we are young and free" with "in peace and harmony"." See ref [21].
20. Ref format seems okay.
21. Add editor. Add date & accessdate. wL author. wL website per [[The Conversation (website)|The Conversation]]
22. Add agency = [[Australian Associated Press]] (AAP) Delete language= Also, the wp article has: "not to play it before his fights" This is incorrect as the source has, "organisers opted to play the national anthem before the fighters entered the arena, effectively scuppering it as an issue." More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:02, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
23. wL work per ref [31]
24. Tony Abbott and Sam Watson are not mentioned in this source. Note: Watson is mentioned in previous one. Needs a better source for Abbott or his name should be removed.
25. Fix website to work = [[The Daily Telegraph (Sydney)|The Daily Telegraph]] Fix title.02:52, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
26. Fix title.
27. Is this same as next ref? wL author. change website to publisher & wL.
28. Use a ref tab for same ref as previous. Delete "celebrated" from sentence being reffed: puffery.
29. This ref mentions Abbott & could be used higher in the article. Can't see anything about the NRL coach. wL work/website. del language. add author.
30. The url has died and I can't find it archived. Needs a better ref for Emerson's opinion, plus a time check is needed: his opinion may be different, now. While here, de-link Australian Labor Party as it is previously linked in the article.
31. De-link and move publisher to work. Check ref [23]. More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
32. Reorder author name (last name, first name). Note also mentions Beasley's comments (see next ref).
33. Add author name. Keep wL of publisher in ref but remove it from related text (already linked). The text also implies Beasley's comments were made in 2011 rather than ten years earlier.
34. Not an independent source. The source itself has, "RAP Founder, Peter Vickery invited to meet up..." You need a new source to support claim of Hawke's support.
35. Same as ref [19].
36. wl work. Content relates to Beasley's comments earlier. From the referred text remove "so-called" as redundant.
37. Reorder author name. url leads to current page & I can't find an archive link. Fix work to UK version for wL. Remove "in some quarters" from previous sentence to reffed one: unnecessary.
38. Move NITV to publisher and give full name+wL. This source does have 2009 but ref [34] has 2006. [38] also states, "Words by Judith Durham. Additional Words by Kutcha Edwards, Lou Bennett, Camilla Cahnce and Bill Hauritz." The latter three are not mentioned in the text.
39. Fix work per previous (but not wL). Add author. Add date. This source links Vickery and Cheetham to the project.
40. Good format. Source links Cheetham, Durham and Vickery. Also refers to NRL players/boxers. Consider, "the then prime minister Bob Hawke used his executive powers to change "Australia's sons" to "Australians all let us rejoice"." Which could be used Lyrics or Development of lyrics sections.
41. Move ABC News to work. Mentions Pearson and O'Doherty.
42. Add author. dL work. Mentions Garrett and Ponniah.

More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:52, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

External links

• Adj attribution: [online] at Australian Government, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade – in any case, do we need this when the article already has the lyrics as well as the first government site, below.21:41, 5 May 2020 (UTC)~
• Doesn't seem to work for me.
• Change title. Note this site has more information about McCormick's copyright and when it expired.
• Government websites. What about the first EL?
  • Doesn't work.
  • Add duration.
  • Apply quote marks around song title. More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Repeats much of the previous ELs. Largely redundant?More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:41, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
• Title needs rewording, these are not the original 1878 verses. The selection has three verses and their order differs from that published in this article. Not sure whether we need two versions of Peter Dawson singing the anthem (the other is up at Competitions...) Speaking of the upper version, a ref is needed for the year the recording was released. A YouTube video is not sufficiently reliable for that.
• Time-span for relevant section needed. Additional material, which can be heard, might be under copyright.
• See above. If kept, add instrumental to description.
• Add instrumental to description.
• May breach copyright? Note user name.
• I can't open this one.

Done, for now.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your thorough breakdown of the article. Seems there are a lot of inconsistencies that will be tough to sort out. bibliomaniac15 03:22, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Keep up your good work.

More thoughts:

1. AuDB quotes SMH for Fairfax' performance, the relevant article, here, can be quoted directly.
2. Sung by Amicus, here on 10 December 1878.
3. 2nd edn was available on 1 March 1879, here, if not earlier. But no indication whether there are any changes since 1st edn.
4. From what I can tell, the 1974 version did not have the latter day changes, as found in the 1984 version. I'm still looking for a definitive ref for that.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:08, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
   1. Not sure if this helps or makes the situation more confusing: here. One interesting comment from then-PM Fraser, "In the second verse of 'Advance Australia Fair' we find these words, 'Britannia rules the waves'." Fraser then suggests that "Walzing Matilda" be played in place of Australian anthem at Montreal Olympics.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:51, 6 May 2020 (UTC)