Wikipedia:Peer review/Burke and Hare murders/archive1

Burke and Hare murders[edit]

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As a final huzzah to the project, we have decided to plumb the depths of depravity to offer the ten- month alcohol-fuelled killing spree of two itinerant low-lives: the Burke and Hare murders. It's a fascinating case with strong cast, double-crossing, turning of blind eyes and a certain amount of covering up. Any and all constructive comments are welcome in this, our final PR. Cheers – Gavin (talk) & Cassianto ^Talk 11:13, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Images

File:James_Wilson_(Daft_Jamie).jpg, File:Mary_Paterson.jpg: these images don't appear on page 10 of Rosner - was another page meant?
File:Burke_Murdering_Margery_Campbell.jpg: what steps have you taken to try to identify the author? Same with File:Helen_McDougal_%26_William_Burke.jpg
File:The_Hares_during_the_trial.jpg needs more information on the source - when was the "old book" published, and what book is it? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:53, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Nikkimaria. The first two points all addressed (and artists located for one or two); ~~the third one still needs to be done, once the openlibrary comes back online~~. Cheers - Gavin (talk) 09:30, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The third one now done (swapped out for File:Burke and McDougall at the bar.jpg). - Gavin (talk) 10:18, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Dweller

Smashing topic, can't wait to see this on Main Page. Big kudos for the work done. Detail comments:

"series" is singular, so it should be "was a series"
Not sure about including "Irish immigrants" in the Lead. Seems a bit POINTy
Too many subordinate clauses follow "shortfall in the legal supply of corpses", it's hard to read and harder to follow. Simplify with some full stops.
"Foundling" isn't common parlance these days and might need a link, possibly to wiktionary
The murders increased grave robbing? Seems unlikely. Is it that the shortage of cadavers increased grave robbing?
"was put on display the Anatomical Museum" missing word
"have also been portrayed on screen, either as an inspiration for fiction or for heavily fictionalised accounts" doesn't quite make sense
Text needs some sort of explanation for why "resurrection men" is used as the term. Even if it's the addition of "so-called".
"that the suitable corpses on which to undertake dissection" delete "the"
"Stealing the body, however, was not" The "not" is awkward, referring back to the "criminal offence" but actually referring confusingly to "taking of property"
"The cost per corpse" Think you mean "price"

It depends whether you are the buyer or seller... - Gavin (talk) 14:40, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point.

Article mentions five men, all of whom were key to the development of the science of anatomy in Edinburgh at this time. It's unclear why the article then devotes a subsection to the life/career of the fourth of these five men

It's made clear in the lead (read before people get to this section), and then in the subsequent history. - Gavin (talk) 16:05, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, got it. Make him first or last, perhaps?

"in the house of Logue and his wife, Margaret Laird". Do we not know Logue's other name? He's mentioned with one name, as if he had no other or we've already been introduced to him. If his surname is Laird, it's his wife who should lose her surname, as we can infer it

No - the sources only show the name Logue. I've clarified to "a man named Logue". - Gavin (talk) 16:05, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nice

Burke is introduced with his first name, Hare without. Consistency please!
Battle of Waterloo didn't take place in England
"skins and human hair" Human skins? Animal skins? Worth clarifying. Not sure how you "collect" either type - did people just have them lying around and throw them out like modern day recycling?
"£1-a-week" not sure about the hyphenation. Get a third opinion?

~~I've asked Chris the speller, who has an excellent eye and a sound grasp on all such matters~~. - Gavin (talk) 15:12, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hyphens removed per advice. - Gavin (talk) 16:05, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Burke was not true to his religion" this sounds like we're chastising him, which is not our role. The narrative is unchanged if the comment is deleted
"seldom ever seen" the "ever" is a redundancy
"Burke and McDougall" earlier, we called her McDougal. Which is it?
"where they met Hare" What was Hare doing there?

The source does not clarify, unfortunately. - Gavin (talk) 15:12, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

General comments:

Far too much use of subordinate clauses created by use of dashes. I'm a hypocrite, because I'm also fond of the technique.
Article makes use of the Oxford comma, which is, of course, fine. I've not checked whether this has been applied consistently because I don't use it and am therefore not a good judge of when it is and is not needed.

Only when the lack of the comma would lead to confusion, otherwise it's a serial free article. Cheers - Gavin (talk) 16:01, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll review

More when I have time --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:26, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Dweller: all tweaked per your suggestions. - Gavin (talk) 12:06, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, some excellent points raised there, all of which Gavin beat me to. Cassianto ^Talk 15:16, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton[edit]

First batch

Lead

"was", in the first line, may be grammatically justified but reads awkwardly. Perhaps: "The Burke and Hare murders, or West Port murders, refer to a series of 16 murders..."
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"...their victims were people recognisable in the locale" – suggest "their victims were known in the locality"
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"...indicated that it was probable the deceased had been suffocated" → "indicated that she had probably been suffocated"
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
" but it could not be medically proven" → " but this could not be medically proven"
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"his wife was found not proven" – it is the case, not the individual, that's declared not proven. Thus: "the case against his wife was found not proven".
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's leadworthy to mention briefly what subsequently happened to Hare.
" either as an inspiration for fiction or for heavily fictionalised accounts" – these seem too similar to be worth an "either...or"
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Anatomy in 19th-century Edinburgh

The use of mdashes in the list of names causes problems. I think it would be better as "These included Alexander Monro, his son who was also called Alexander, John Bell, Robert Knox and John Goodsir".
"comprised the bodies of" → "were those of". We already have "corpses" in the sentence.
I'm a bit confused by "including those who died in prison". Why is it necessary to add this – didn't all executed criminals die in prison?
The overlong sentence beginning "The price per corpse..." should be split.
"By the 1820s the residents of Edinburgh took to the streets..." Should be either "In the 1820s..." or "...had taken to the streets"

This section all done. – Gavin (talk) 21:35, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dr Robert Knox

"from 1820" → "in 1820"
"performed his dissections" → "performed dissections" (he could hardly have carried out others' dissections). I wonder if "performed" is the best word?

All done here. – Gavin (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

William Burke and William Hare

I'm a bit troubled by Hare's dates. According to the information here he was around 18 years old when he moved to Edinburgh, having previously "worked on the Union Canal for seven years" – so he was a kid of 11 when he came to England to work as a navvy? And before that he had (possibly) been an agricultural labourer in Ireland? If, as you say, information on his earlier life is scant, maybe these slightly improbable timings are amiss?

We've got an alternative as a footnote: should we raise this into the main text. – Gavin (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can see of the Rosner source, p. 66, Hare on his arrest in 1828 told the police he was 21; that doesn't seem enough to justify saying in thr text that he was "probably" born in 1807. In view of his work history, and the fact that another source says he was older, I'd say 1807 was highly improbable, and that Hare was taking the piss. I would be inclined to revise the whole sentence: "Hare's age and year of birth are unknown; when arrested in 1828 he gave his age as 21, but one source states that he was born between 1792 and 1804". Note that the online ODNB gives this range, not 1792 per your footnote. I'd cite Rosner and ODNB online, and drop the footnote. Brianboulton (talk) 22:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All tweaked. – Gavin (talk) 07:00, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're up early. This bit fine now, but out of curiosity, as you call the section "William Burke and William Hare", why do you give Hare's details first? Brianboulton (talk) 08:17, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It was to try and avoid problems with the image dropping into the lower section on wider screens, but we may as well just let the chips fall where they may. – Gavin (talk) 11:58, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"produced a description based on contemporary accounts that describes Hare as..." – A description that describes? Try: "Based on contemporary accounts, Brian Bailey in his history of the murders describes Hare as..."
Do we need the rather subjective "respectable"?
Their upbringing was likely to have been "comfortable" rather than "privileged" which suggests upper class or aristocracy.
"extended family" usually implies cousins, uncle, aunts, nephews, neices etc. Why not just "family"?
"gleeful"? Very odd word to use; do you mean "good-humoured"? Gleeful suggests something else
Link Roman Catholic
Final paragraph: I'd shorten this to someting like: "In 1827 Burke and McDougal went to Penicuik, Midlothian to work on the harvest, where they met Hare. The men became friends; when Burke and McDougall returned to Edinburgh, they moved into Hare's Tanner's Close lodging house where the two couples soon acquiured a reputation for hard drinking and boisterous behaviour." That way avoids the cumbersome "according to" and paraphrases a quote.

All done here, bar the point with the question. – Gavin (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More soon. Brianboulton (talk) 17:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Brian, all grist to the mill. Cheers – Gavin (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Next batch – the long section:

Events of November 1827 to November 1828

First para: "According to Burke's confession..." – which one? (you later say he made two)
To whom was the "official" confession made, on 3 January 1829?
"during which he changed the order between his two statements". This doesn't parse with the first part of the sentence which, if you omit the mdash inserion would read: " Burke made two confessions, during which he changed the order between his two statements". Suggest replace the second part with: "but gave different sequences for the murders in each statement." And continue: "These in turn differed from the order given in Hare's statement, although..." etc
Could we have a date for Hare's statement?
Third para; the words "to be correct" seem unnecessary.
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:19, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not immediately clear why the "pillow" method rather than the hand clap technique indicates that joseph was the likely first victim.
"One morning in early April, Burke was drinking in a tavern in the Canongate area of Edinburgh when he met two women, Mary Paterson (also known as Mary Mitchell) and Janet Brown". This sentence has a slightly magaziney feel to it; we could drop extraneous detail and simply say: "In early April Burke met two women: Mary Paterson (also known as Mary Mitchell) and Janet Brown, in the Canongate area of Edinburgh."
- Done. Cassianto ^Talk 18:19, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"plied" is used twice in fairly close proximity – perhaps find a synonym?
"I got a bit muddled here. Burke invites the women back to his lodgings for breakfast, but instead they go to Burke's brother's house where, oddly, they encounter Helen McDougal, etc. I'm guessing this was all a set-up, including McDougal's supposed wrath at finding Burke with another woman, but more clarity is necessary.

Probably a set up, but there is no proof either way, and the sources leave the point open. - Gavin (talk) 13:04, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You should introduce Mrs Haldane as "a Mrs Haldane" to avoid the impression we should know who she was.
"heavily inebriated" is a bit ponderous (sounds like something out of a policeman's notebook sorry, Chris). Couldn't we just say "drunk"? I see you use "heavily drunk" later, but...
" One evening she became heavily drunk and Burke smothered her" → " One evening while she was intoxicated, Burke smothered her..."
"inoffensive nature" is not really quoteworthy. You could just say he was innoffensive, or harmless.
"his condition led to the bestowing of the nickname Daft Jamie" – too stiff. "he was known locally as Daft Jamie" would do just as well.
"At 7:00 am the following morning..." some redundancy there.
You might name Burke's brother at first mention, rather than here at the end of the section.
I can't quite reconcile the figures of the murdered you give in the last paragraph: 9 in Hare's house, 2 in the stables, 4 in Burke's brother's house. Not counting the woman Hare murdered and sold without Burke's complicity, I make the reckoning as follows:

Hare's house: Joseph; unnamed Englishman, Simpson; unnamed old woman; "Peggy"; second old woman; drunk woman; grandmother; grandson; "Daft Jamie" – 10 in all
Stable: Mrs Haldane; "Effie" – 2 in all
Burke's house: Mrs Ostler; Ann Dougal; Margaret Docherty – total 3
Brother's house: Mary Paterson.

That's part of the problem with the garbled confessions, so I've removed the locations (which appear in an 1829 source); your breakdown is an accurate reflection of the prose, which is a reflection of Rosener's list, so at least that much is clear! - Gavin (talk) 13:04, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Better check. I think I've followed the narrative.

I've done a fair bit of copyediting which you might want to look at. Will try to do the rest tomorow as I'm then going to be offline for afew days. Brianboulton (talk) 17:57, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All done so far, and your copy edits are, as always, spot on. Cheers - Gavin (talk) 13:04, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Final batch:

Developments etc

"separate from one another" → "apart"
"...Knox, who claimed that Burke and Hare had watched poor lodging houses..." – not really a "claim", rather an "assertion". Whether he really thought this is anyone's guess.
" and that one of the four were guilty" → " and that at least one of the four was guilty" (got to be "was", whatever)
"would be able to" → "could"
"but had no proof on which to take any evidence" – I can't make sense of that wording. Don't you mean "basis" rather than "proof"?
"As news of the second murder emerged...": what was this "second murder", and how/where did news of it emerge?
"he could not be bought" – "brought"?
"which reflected and altered public opinion". That seems contradictory; maybe just "influenced"?

Trial

Delete "and was held" from first line
"Rosner notes that even a break for dinner could have raised questions about the validity of the trial." How so?

I've tweaked slightly to show that it was the formal break that was the problem, but Rosner doesn't illuminate any further. - Gavin (talk) 08:44, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Paterson also told the court that Knox had diagnosed Burke with advanced testicular cancer and had treated him for the disease". I wonder if this is relevant?
"McDougal had been involved by bringing the victim back to the house both times when she had run out" – can you clarify what this means?

Aftermath

"there are no clear accounts of her later life" – identical phrase used twice in quick succession.
"disguised and incognito": Doesn't each imply the other?

Legislation

"A select committee": for clarity I'd make that "A parliamentary select committee..."
link "royal assent"
In the lead you have bolded West Port murders as an accepted alternative description of the Burke and Hare murders, but so little is made of the West Port connection that when I came across the name in the "media portrayals" I had forgotten all about the name and wondered what it referred to. Do we need this alternative? The names Burke and Hare are very widely recognised; I for one had never heard of the West Port murders.
"The murders have also been portrayed on screen, either as an inspiration for fiction or for heavily fictionalised accounts." I think I raised concerns about this wording or similar in the lead. Another issue is that the supporting footnote refers to stage adaptations as well as screen, someting omitted from your text. I suggest you reword the sentence thus: "The murders have also been portrayed on stage and screen, usually in heavily fictionalised form" – or some such brief wording.

And that is it. To me it's strange to think that I won't be doing any more of these reviews, which have formed one of the more rewarding parts of my wikipedia life. It's mainly because you both have a knack of picking up interesting and intriguing subjects that I actually want to know more about. Still, as Mr Bond might have said, "Never say never". I retain the hope that, after a long and well-deserved rest you might be tempted back. Meanwhile my best wishes, and enjoy your freedom.

returned to sign Brianboulton (talk) 22:47, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, as always Brian! It's been a pleasure to work with you on so many articles and you have, as always, my very great thanks. I'm sure others will spin out some interesting topics for review - there are enough of them to have an entire Wiki-career just looking at the odd bits, I think. Cheers - Gavin (talk) 08:44, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I echo Gavin in saying that it's been both an honour and a pleasure to work with you, not just on this, but on the many others that we have both brought to FA. Thank you so much for investing the time and for having faith in the articles we write. Cassianto ^Talk 16:30, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]