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Cucurbita[edit]

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I've listed this article for peer review because it recently achieved Good Article status and we were advised by a couple users to take it to peer review and then attempt featured status. I am going to ask four users who have been helping to participate in this peer review as well as someone I recently discovered who seems knowledgeable about medical and pharmacology issues. Thank you for your assistance, HalfGig (talk) 01:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, these are my notes, check at least the last one:
in the taxonomy section cultivar groups are listed as synonims of species-level taxa and is not that so, even if you put a table later in other section it is confusing.
You mean the section I call "species" or the taxobox? The ones in species are not synomyms according to Nee. I discuss the different views on Cucubit taxonomy in the article.HalfGig (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No they are not synonyms, but it looks like so, it's confusing. You should find a way to say those groups are "inside" the species taxon. --RoRo (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the disagreements about how to handle Cucurbit taxonomy is confusing. Many of the references simply don't agree, that's why I picked on and saw there are disagreements.
It looks like I didn't express myself enough, I said it "looks like" pumpkin group is a synonym of 'Cucurbita pepo and people can interpret that section that way. --RoRo (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also "cultivar group" is not the same as "variety" or "subspecies", a cultivar group groups cultivars based on morphological traits indepently of taxonomic origin. For example "butternut group", "zucchini group" are more correct than variety name.
You need to be more specific here about where in the article you're talking about. This again could be due to different views about Cucurbit taxonomy. I used the taxo per the refs I used. HalfGig (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No there aren't different views about cultivar groups. I'm not sure about the causes but some people prefers variety or subsp. names for cultivar groups, but they are still cultivar groups. Paris (1986) and after that Paris (1989) defined those 8 cultivar groups of C. pepo with a cultivar group name and a variety name. I don't know the backstage about this practice, but cultivar group names are still more correct. If you insist about variety name you can put those both, but not variety name alone. Cultivar groups can hybridize and if they still have the morphological traits of the cultivar group they are still on the cultivar group, but if a plant descendent of two cultivar group parents don't have the morphological traits, that plant does not belong to that cultivar group. Cultivar groups is a way to delimit plants based on horticultural needs and not phylogeny. And a "zucchini" is defined because of the shape and flavor of the fruit, not because the parents it came from. In zapallito group it looks like the author first defining it (Millán 1947) didn't know the origins and he put a taxon name for that group. Now we know zapallito are cultivars from pre-columbian times, all with the same morphological traits, and all derived from C. maxima subsp. andreana, but from different lines between that species, so they are independently originated cultivars and because of that it's more correct to call them with a cultivar group name: zapallito group. You can find the links on the es:wikipedia talk. --RoRo (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Los zapallitos de tronco de Sudamérica extratropical" only shows up on JSTOR and I did add the tranlator to my browser but it say the page is already in English (as it's an English web site) even though the article is in Spanish, so I can't do anything with that article. I will work on other things on es.wiki but I'll need a few days to get through it. HalfGig (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok you should check the International Code of Cultivated Plants for cultivar groups taxonomy and definition. --RoRo (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Before the table you should say there are more C. pepo cultivars that can't be associated with any of these 8 groups, it is in the referenced literature.
Which reference and which cultivars are you talking about? HalfGig (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Paris (1986) or maybe Paris (1989), the author of the names. I don't remember he put an example of a cultivar not fitting on any of those groups. --RoRo (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no Paris ref already in the article from either of those years.HalfGig (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh really, well it should, becase he is the first author of the names and in 1989 described them a little more. The papers are online: Paris, H. S. (1986). A proposed subspecific classification for Cucurbita pepo. Phytologia, 61(3), 133-138 Paris, H. S., 1989. Historical Records, Origins, and Development of the Edible Cultivar Groups of Cucurbita pepo (Cucurbitaceae). Economic Botany 43(4): 423-443. I added these images in Commons if you want to use them, they are from the first paper. I uploaded them in spanish but are easily modificable.
There are C. maxima groups not mentioned here that are important in South America, as zapallito group, triloba group, and zipinka group, their description is accesible online at Millán (1947) Los zapallitos de tronco de la América extratropical. Darwiniana.
Much of this is in Spanish too. I would like to add something on them with good sources if in English or in Spanish if someone can translate for us. I don't have the language skills to read or translate any non-English language. I found one good source in English for each of them and have added them. HalfGig (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok what about it: when you finish your work I will read that part with Millán (1947) at hand and add something if neccesary. --RoRo (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Will do what I can the next few days. HalfGig (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We are collecting information about Cucurbita on the es:wikipedia wikiproject talk page, if you want to take a look to the photographs listed and to the linked papers. A member promised to upload a zipinka photograph soon, and we are looking for the rest of the photographs lacking. We are still trying to match information from common names (as they are found for example on sites like the argentinian Instituto Nacional de Tecnología Agropecuaria, oriented for non-biologists, or on sites about horticultural statistics) with information about taxa. You will find there other groups too. --RoRo (talk) 14:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think we'd need to be careful about switching between variety" and "cultivar group". I'll go take a look at the info on es.wiki, but I have to admit my foreign language skills are horrible. HalfGig (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC) The links are all in Spanish. I'll need a translator to use that material. HalfGig (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Google Chrome can translate foreign-language pages in situ while preserving all their functionality (see Google Chrome#Automatic web page translation). I'm sure other browsers can do the same. I use it all the time and it's become indispensable in my research. mgiganteus1 (talk) 01:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, people say translators work well for translations between common languages as english and spanish. For example I use Firefox and I have an extension (Tools - Add ons - Extensions - choose one) called Quick Translator 1.0, but I don't use it much. --RoRo (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Another item: I have Robinson and Decker-Walters (1997) Cucurbits at hand (I think it is the most cited classification of the economic Cucurbita), and for C. pepo it uses for reference Paris (1986), defining the 8 cultivar groups you already have. It describes them and describes the most spread cultivars on each. It recognizes 3 horticultural groupings of C. moschata in Northamerica: Cheese, Crookneck (C. moschata Crookneck), and Bell. It says the most widespread C. moschata, 'Butternut', is a Crookneck (but most of the times its neck is straight). My note: I used to find it as a cultivar group (Butternut group), it looks like now there are many hybrids and local deformations of the original 'Butternut'. For C. maxima it cites classification of Castetter (1925) and describes groups: Banana, Delicious, Hubbard, Marrow (C. maxima Marrow), Show, Turban. It describes the most widespread cultivars on each group and a widespread cultivar not belonging to these groups. The book is too North America centered but I already pointed you to some papers about South American groups. --RoRo (talk) 18:49, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1) In the C. pepo table, what if we change "common name" to "cultivar group"? 2) can you get me page numbers for the groups you mention from the 1997 book "Cucurbits"? HalfGig (talk) 23:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1) Yes it looks like those are the cultivar group names. You should say they are "cultivar groups" and link that word.
2) Pages 71-83. Send me an email if you don't find the book. --RoRo (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm ready for you to take a look at the article again. A lot of the Spanish pages I tried to use the translator for did not work because it said the web page was too big. HalfGig (talk) 21:39, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Chemical constituents from Zad68[edit]

Hi HalfGig, fine work bringing along this article. I reviewed the Chemical constituents section as requested, here are my notes:

Sourcing[edit]

(I always start by looking at the sourcing, I think it's the most important thing.)

  • Yadav 2010 - Green tickY - 2010 MEDLINE-indexed review article, looks like a good quality source and used appropriately.
  • Burrows 2013 - Green tickY - Burrows is a toxicologist and is university-affiliated. The publisher is Wiley, well-established for academic and medical works. Looks like a good quality source and used appropriately in this section.
  • Tallamy 1989 - Green tickY - Tallamy is a PhD and univeristy affiliated, he is an ecologist. Looks like a good quality source and used appropriately in this section.
  • Chen 2005 - Green tickY - 2005 MEDLINE-indexed review, looks fine. Normally we might complain that 2005 is too old per WP:MEDDATE but the information being sourced is very basic and unlikely to have changed.
  • Fergusen 1983 - Red XN - 1983 case report, per WP:MEDRS should not be used. You already have Burrows 2013 to support this, if that source supports the whole statement then please just remove Fergusen 1983.
  • Andres 1987 - Green tickY - PhD at Univeristy, looks OK as used.
  • McAuslane 1996 - Green tickY - PhD, univeristy-associated, writing in area of strength, looks OK as used.
  • Preedy 2011 - Green tickY/Red XN - Series of review articles, Academic Press publisher, looks like OK source. But, I am concerned that the content is overstating the anti-cancer effects. MANY things are toxic to cancer cells but have no meaningful health effect in humans (see this XKCD comic!). I would need to see the cited part of the book to confirm.
    • Cut the cancer, problem solved.HalfGig (talk) 12:40, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Barbieri 2006 - Red XN - Primary source, improperly used, you really cannot use a primary source like this to make a general statement.
  • Hou 2008 - Red XN - Primary source, improperly used, you really cannot use a primary source like this to make a general statement. And again, the anti-cancer effects are probably being overstated.
  • González 2001 - Red XN - Primary source, you should be able to find a secondary source for this, doesn't the USDA nutrient report cover this?
  • USDA nutrient report - Green tickY
  • Mayer 2010 - Green tickY - looks OK.
Prose[edit]
  • I'd rename the section from Chemical constituents to something a little more descriptive of what the section contains, like Health and nutrition
      • This rename is probably correct, but it exacerbates the overlap with the Uses section, which of course includes food for humans, and medicinal uses; there's also an overlap between the two sections as regards insect pests. I'm not sure the sections should be merged, but these 3 overlaps need to be addressed by any combination of merging, renaming, and moving sentences or paragraphs. The topics in there are 1) Curcurbits as food; 1a) food issues e.g. bitterness and toxicity 2) Cucurbits as medicine; 3) Pests and diseases; 4) Chemical composition. Clearly these interact to a degree, because the chemicals affect medicinal uses, some pests and diseases, toxicity and flavour. Hope these thoughts help, but work is clearly needed rearranging the sections. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:37, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm really stuck on what more to do with this. I did some rearranging, but now I'm really stuck. HalfGig (talk) 23:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, Food/Culinary uses is a well-defined section, so that's #1.
          • The current 'Nutrition and health' is still a muddle; I suggest as above a 'Medicine' section for clarity, to contain only the medicinal properties, guess you can include vitamins as also beneficial in there, so that's #2.
          • The chemical composition you have partly resolved with the Summer squash table, the obvious issue for FA being 'what about all other squashes?' - guess that needs some work. That table only concerns chemicals which are nutrients; you also need something on chemicals which are toxic, like Cucurmosin. Why not have a #4 'Composition' section with 2 subsections, 'Nutrients' and 'Toxins'?
            • There's no way we can include a table on every species, not even just the cultivated species.HalfGig (talk) 11:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • No, indeed not. Maybe (it needs saying) the other squashes are v. similar in composition to the summer squashes? Or maybe nobody knows; or maybe there are certain small but interesting variations. It would be possible to add one or two more cols to the table if other squashes have been measured in a comparable way. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:31, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • That leaves #3 'Pests and diseases' which frankly would be better separated from the others as I said above. At the moment you have Cabbage and Turnip moths in non-culinary uses ?! - clearly not the right place. Suggest a new section, into which can go quite a bit from the 2nd para of Nutrition and health on discouraging herbivores, silverleaf whitefly and defensive responses. I've no idea why you're telling us about herbivores converting carotenoids to vit A, why is that relevant?
          • I think if you do that it will feel a lot more comfortable. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • Excellent tips. I will see what I can do. HalfGig (talk) 11:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In general (talking about the article as a whole here), the prose is a bit choppy throughout. The article needs some copyediting before it can go to FAC.
    • I'd need help from someone on this.HalfGig (talk) 09:45, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "small enough to reduce production costs" - you need a disambiguation or explanation of "production costs" here, as it appears to be a specialized biology use of the term and not an economic one
    • Linked to an article that seems to explain this. HalfGig (talk) 09:45, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Chemical constituents section needs to be reorganized a bit, paragraphs organized by topic with all the related info in the appropraite paragraph, eliminate short paragraphs (under three sentences).
    • Took a stab at it but probably need help here too.HalfGig (talk) 09:45, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Zad68 19:06, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sasata[edit]

More later ... Sasata (talk) 02:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The plant stem can grow five to fifteen meters" should give an imperial conversion for this
  • links: subspecies, ovary, variety?
  • link tendril eariler
  • "; leaves alternately arranged on the stem." fix grammar
  • decide British or American English (meters v. metres) HalfGig talk 23:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • A search didn't find any instances of "metres". HalfGig talk 23:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I went with American since it's native to the New World. HalfGig talk 23:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Pepo" is a specialized term is used primarily" fix grammar
  • "crucial for fruit set." could be made to sound less jargony
  • "Cucurbita are native the New World since" fix
  • link genetic bridge
  • "Modern day cultivated Cucurbita" needs hyphenation
  • "domestication events" jargony
    • Can't think of what to change it to. (talk) 23:03, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Squash was domesticated first, with maize second and then beans being domesticated," prose sounds a bit clunky
  • pernnials fix
  • link taxonomic
  • "Sixteen of the species were grouped into five clusters with the remaining five being classified separately, not being closely related to another species to form a cluster (species group)" clunky
  • "C. pepo originated in and were domesticated in Mesoamerica. C. maxima originated in and was domesticated in South America." repetitive
  • link oil, protein
  • "but this has been shown not to be the case." perhaps "but this has been disproven".
  • "It was did start to spread", "Groups of of" fix
  • "Cucurbita moschata is native to Latin America but the precise location is uncertain, but it is possibly Columbia." inelegant
  • "It has also been present in Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, and Peru for 4,000–6,000 years. It is also" repetitive sentence beginnings
  • "Its leaves are 20–30 cm wide", "20–35 cm wide" needs imperial conversions
  • "The Cucurbitaceae family has the largest number of different species used as human food than any other group of plants." fix grammar
  • "or the seeds lying within."
  • "Summer squash, on the other hand, have a thin skin, which can be eaten." idiomatic, perhaps trim to "In contrast, summer squash have a thin, edible skin."
  • link cosmetics
  • I think cucumber should be mentioned somewhere in the article (as a well-known, commonly consumed curcubit), rather than as a "See also" link
    • how so? it's a cucurbit (family) but not in this genus. HalfGig talk 17:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Culinary: mention that shoot tips are consumed as a cooked vegetable in southern and eastern Africa
  • Production: might be useful to list (as a table) the production of major curcubit vegetables separately by continent (e.g. watermelon, cucumber, melons and pumpkins/squash) with totals at the bottom
  • I think the article is missing information on germination/seedling growth
  • it seems the range of flower morphologies in this group is more diverse than the "Description" section accounts for
  • which plant growth hormones are primarily responsible for determining flower gender, and which regulate fruit set?
  • does parthenocarpy occur in curcubits?
  • There are two images of "regular" pumpkins, perhaps a "massive" one would be an interesting alternative? Also, the description section mentions that "Certain domesticated specimens can weigh over 300 kilograms (660 lb)." but the record for largest pumpkin is far over 1000 lbs (see here, although not a reliable source)
  • not necessary to include publishers and publisher location for journals
    • If I'm consistent in including them, is that ok? HalfGig talk 23:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • page # for ref #29?
    • Can't find a page. This is also covered by ref #27 so I copied it there. Should I delete #29 and move to further reading? HalfGig (talk) 00:21, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • A further reading section is probably not a good idea for an article on a genus. If a source is good, then use it as a source. Sasata (talk) 02:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm pretty sure "Oxfordshite" should be Oxfordshire in ref #47 :) And, "Cab International" should be "CAB International"
  • you might want to convert all of the ISBN 10s to the recommended ISBN 13s (here's a handy converter)
  • for ref #57, I'd list the work as "Free-living Cucurbita pepo in the United States Viral Resistance, Gene Flow, and Risk Assessment", the title as "What is Cucurbita texana?", and the author (Hugh D. Wilson)
  • ref #68 (Yadav 2010) has the journal article title in sentence case, unlike the others; same with ref #74
  • How has the taxonomic concept of the genus changed over its history? For an FA I'd expect to have every one of the taxobox synonyms at least mentioned, along with their authors and year of publication. It'd be even better if it had citations to the original publication, and links to those publications where available.
  • why is the type species not given in the taxobox or discussed in the text?
  • "Cucurbita moschata is native to Latin America but the precise location is uncertain, but it is possibly Columbia." the precise location of what is uncertain? Two "buts" in the sentence sounds inelegant
  • "A more recent theory" when is more recent? Who proposed this theory? Is there any molecular evidence to support this?
  • link blood sugar
  • "C. ficifolia is used to make soft and mildly alcoholic drinks" does this mean it's used to make soft drinks? How is it used, as a flavoring? As a container?
  • "and high doses have been shown to be successful in reducing blood sugar levels." high doses of what? High doses of C. ficifolia?
  • "The fruits of some species, such as C. foetidissima, are used as soaps and detergents." used as soaps and detergents, or used in making soaps and detergents?
  • "Cucurbita fruits are an important source for humans of carotenoids, Vitamin A, and rhodopsin, all of which are important to good visual acuity,[4] as well as several other vitamins and minerals." Several problems with this sentence: awkward prose; vitamin shouldn't be capitalized (vitamins are inappropriately capitalized later too, also β-carotene); it is ambiguous as to how to interpret the final clause.
  • what's special about cucurbitin?
    • Added material and book reference. HalfGig talk 17:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Pharmacological properties include anti-diabetic, antioxidant, anticarcinogen, and anti-inflammatory." awkward prose; also, this statement refers specifically to pumpkin and this should be stated explicitly
  • please audit uses of "also" and "however" (commonly overused words in writing) and remove or reword those instances that aren't necessary
  • "seed of Cucurbita.[73][74] — notably" punctuation problems
  • "moschata, that is toxic" that ->which
  • link steroid (pipe to plant steroid)
  • in quantities "large enough to discourage nonadapted herbivores but small enough to reduce production costs and detection by adapted herbivores" no need to retain this quote, rewrite in original words
  • "occasional Cucurbita fraterna" should be short-form binomial ('genus name mentioned already in sentence)
  • I get the feeling that the Pests and diseases section is skipping over a bit of important information, like which of the listed pests result in the greatest economic damage? Any common plant virus diseases?
    • I have added material for both of these. (talk) 22:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • link defensive responses
  • I think the table would look better if the middle column were right justified and centralized
    • I can't figure this out. I made it look the same as the table in Cabbage. Can you or someone else help?HalfGig (talk) 20:06, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • what is so special about Wehner 1987 to be the sole entry in "Further reading", and why wasn't it used as a source?
    • He was in the medical section. Zad68 said the source wasn't good enough for MEDRS, so I moved it to further reading. Per your prior comment, I'll remove further reading.HalfGig (talk) 20:06, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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