Wikipedia:Peer review/Invisible Circles/archive1

Invisible Circles

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because it received a major expansion and needs a new evaluation

Thanks, Lewismaster (talk) 19:07, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: This is a fair start but needs lots of work to make it flowing and accessible to most readers. I would suggest adding a "Background" section that includes details about the band's past, its personnel changes, and its earlier albums. After adding such a section, you could re-write the lead to make it a true summary of the whole article. An eagle-eyed copyeditor would also find fix many small errors here that need fixing; I list a few of these below.

Lead

• The lead should be a summary of the whole article rather than an introductory paragraph or two. WP:LEAD has details.
• "and it is the first full-length album since the departure of guitarist and composer Mark Jansen" - Maybe "since guitarist and composer Mark Jansen quit the band"? Otherwise, "departure" is ambiguous and might even be taken to mean that he died.
• "His departure marked the end of putting songs in related parts... ". - It's not clear to me what this means. Related parts of what?
• "[e.g. The Embrace That Smothers and My Pledge of Allegiance]" - Individual song titles should appear in quotation marks; e.g., "My Pledge of Allegiance". Also, parentheses would be standard here rather than brackets.
• "In this work instead a new sound has been adopted by the band, mostly revolving around elements of progressive metal [1] ." - Here and elsewhere in the article, the citation number should appear after the punctuation, not before.
• "The theme was inspired by Gommans' work as an Art teacher" - Gommans' first name should also appear here the first time he is mentioned. Also, "art" does not take a capital "a".

Other

• I'd suggest adding a "Background" section that would include material about the band's history. See Californication (album) or Doolittle (album), for example; both are featured articles about albums.
• The article needs a top-to-bottom copyedit to catch errors like those I list above in the Lead section.
• The long paragraphs in the "Production" and "Critical reception" sections should be broken up in a logical way.
• All of the claims in the "Production" section after the words, "When the instrumental tracks were ready," are unsourced. Where does all this information come from? It's certainly not common knowledge.

This is not a complete line-by-line review, but I hope my few suggestions prove helpful. Finetooth (talk) 02:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Belovedfreak comments

I thought I'd add a few comments too. I'll try not to duplicate what Finetooth has said. I recommend a thorough copyedit. I'll point out some problems I noticed.

Lead

• "Invisible Circles is the third studio album released by Dutch symphonic metal band After Forever in 2004" - was it the third album they released that year? if not, that needs to be made clearer. I presume you mean the third released overall, but it's a bit confusing. Perhaps, Invisible Circles is the third studio album by Dutch symphonic metal band After Forever. Released in 2004, it is their first full-length album since...
• "In fact, in this work After Forever adopted ..." - Here, "In fact" is not necessary
• "Invisible Circles is a concept album, dealing with family dynamics and child abuse." - a small point and you may disagree, but to me, "dealing with" suggests something being resolved. Invisible Circles is a concept album about family dynamics and child abuse would be simpler and clearer. Also, family dynamics in themselves are not necessarily bad things to be "dealt with"!
• "...inspired by Sander Gommans' work as an art teacher..." - At this point, I haven't a clue who Sander Gommans is or why he's relevant. Please link his name, and specify who he is in relation to this album.
• "It could also be considered a metal opera..." - "It could also be considered" are weasel words (vague and unsupported); considered by whom? There is no citation backing this sentence up and it is not mentioned again in the article (part of the problem mentioned by Finetooth of the lead not summarising the article). This should either be taken out, or expanded on later, with references (and losing the "it could be considered").
• Make sure that there are no spaces between punctuation and citations (this applies to the whole article).

Concept

• "The story begins with two lovers, whose relationship is running dry and decide to have a child..." - this is not grammatically correct. I'm not sure the best way of wording this, but something's missing. "and decide" seems to relate to the relationship rather than the lovers. Something like The story begins with two lovers, whose relationship is running dry and who decide to have a child... makes sense, although that's not great either.
• "The birth of a baby girl destroys in the mother her hopes of career and passion, causing instead in the father a stiffening..." -this isn't quite right. "Instead" isn't needed here since you're talking about two differnt people. What about The birth of a baby girl destroys in the mother her passion and hopes of a career and causes in the father a stiffening...?
• Is "spoilt brat" a quote from the lyrics, or from a reference? If neither, it's too informal.
• "as an unwanted burden" - a little redundant. Burdens generally are unwanted I think.
• "She searches quietness and strength..." → She searches for quietness and strength
• "becoming always more detached" → becoming ever more detached
• "the grown-up girl, now a mother..." → the grown-up daughter, now a mother

Production

• "In the recording process for the previous albums this task was shared" - "In the recording process" is unnecessary.
• "pushing the music of the band towards a sound more close to progressive metal..." - "more close" → closer
• "limiting the gothic atmospheres" → reducing the gothic atmosphere
• "first hand knowledge of the lives of problematic children, thanks to his job as a teacher" - could you expand a bit on this job & the influence it had on the album? It actually says more in the lead at the moment. Also, what do you mean by "problematic children" exactly?
• "The band reunited at Excess Studios" - reunited from what? Were they on hiatus?
• Amanda Sommerville is a redirect - incorrect spelling?
• "..connect the songs one to the other and explain ..." → connect the songs to each other and explain
• "famed producers" - "famed" is unnecessary and not neutral
• "20th to 24th of October 2003" - per MOS dates shouldn't have "th"

Critical reception

• "After the almost unanimous praise..." - citation needed for "unanimous praise" and also for the great expectations of fans and press.
• "...but, as Eduardo Rivadavia remarks in his Allmusic review..." - this gives the impression that you (or Wikipedia) have a particular opinion that Rivadavia is merely agreeing with. Try to reword it so that you are only reporting what reviewers have said, not making statements of fact and then citing them to a review. This happens again with "The lead vocals of Floor Jansen reach new heights of excellence ..." - if one reviewer has said this, it doesn't make it an irrefutable fact.
• "Maximum Metal review states that ..." - A Maximum Metal review? A Maximum Metal reviewer?
• "Only a few reviewers remained nostalgic..." - this is a broad statement, implying a few (but more than one) out of at least several reviewers, but you have only cited one review.

Commercial response

• Since these are two very small tables, this would perhaps work better as prose, and more connected to the critical response section rather than separated from it by the tracklisting and personnel. Also, please use country names, not just flags. Not all readers will be familiar with those flags, and they could also create accessibility issues for visually impaired readers. (See MOS:FLAG for more detail.)

External links

• Is that You Tube link an official one? Does it link to a copyright violation?

In addition to a background section mentioned by Finetooth, is there any more information about the release of the album? For example, you don't even mention the date of release outside the infobox. Also, what about the single release? This isn't mentioned either. Hope these comments help, I did enjoy reading the article.--BelovedFreak 14:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

More comments from Belovedfreak

It's looking much better. I've given it a slight copyedit, and I'll see what else I can pick up on. Lead

• "musical tastes had strongly influenced the sound of their first work [...] After Forever adopted a new sound" - try to avoid this close repetition of the word "sound" as it sounds (!) a little awkward
• "in three recording studios in the Netherlands and in Germany." - is this three studios in eaach country or three overall? If the latter, I suggest changing it to in three recording studios in the Netherlands and Germany.

Background

Good to see this section!

• "After Forever appeared to observers of the European heavy metal scene ..." - this is vague. Who are the observers? Fans? Critics? Please try to be more specific here & give examples of who thought what.
• "The Gathering, Gorefest and others." - "and others" is unnecessary and a little vague, so I would avoid that. If you feel that there could be several otehrs you could add to that list, perhaps word it as the renaissance of Dutch metal bands, which included Ayreon, Within Temptation, The Gathering, Gorefest.
• "...their musicianship was excellent and their live show was tight and effective." - here it's as if you personally are stating that their musicianship was excellent etc. Even though you have several citations there, it still needs to be worded to make it clear who thought these things. eg. "Critics thought that ... ; Joe Blogs said that "blah blah", while Fred Smith said that "blah blah."
• "Unfortunately, the relationships within..." - "unfortunately" is unnecessary, and projecting your opinion on the situation. Let the reader decide if it was fortunate or unfortunate.
• "The founding member and guitarist Mark Jansen had made his influence felt on the first two albums of After Forever, somehow imposing his personality over the other members of the band." - this is slightly awkward wording, but I didn't want to change it in case I inadvertently changed the meaning. I would suggest something like: Founding member and guitarist Mark Jansen had had a strong influence on the musical style of the band's first two albums. To be honest though, looking at the source cited, I can't see where this is mentioned, and certainly not anything about imposing his personality. If I've missed something, please point it out to me, but I'm concerned that this is WP:OR otherwise.
• "In fact, his love for movie soundtracks is the base for the gothic and symphonic arrangements of Prison of Desire and Decipher." - "In fact" is unnecessary. The source cited here doesn't really back up this sentence, only that he likes movie soundtracks. It doesn't say that his love of them influenced the other albums.
• "Moreover, his interest for religious and sociological ..." - this sentence needs a citation
• "Soon after the release of Decipher, Jansen found himself in contrast with the direction the band, and co-founder Sander Gommans in particular, wanted to take." - I'm not sure what you mean at the end of this sentence, are some words missing?
• "The summer of 2002 was dedicated to a European tour..." - please be more specific about the time of the tour, perhaps mentioning the months they toured. This is to avoid using the word "summer" since summer means a different time in the Southern hemisphere, and is absent altogether form some regions of the world.
• "which exposed even more the band qualities to press and fans alike" - this could do with rewording slightly, but also, is not really neurtral since it sounds like you're writing from the point of view that the band are good, rather than that they got good press.
• "...full-fledged and successful European tour in 2002." - this needs a citation (something saying that it was successful)
• I've removed a few of the "Floor"s in "Floor Jansen" at this point because Mark Jansen is kind of out of the picture at this point, right? So, I don't think the reader will be confused.
• "...increased the curiosity of the fans for a new release." - needs a reference
• I hate to say this, as we asked you for this section, and you've obviously put a lot of work into it, but I wonder if it might need to be cut down a little as much of it isn't too relevant to the album. I think it's good to mention that they were getting more popular after their 2nd album, and the departure of Jansen, and the anticipation of the new album / EP release, but maybe we could lose a little detail. Perhaps leave it for now, and see what you think after you've done some more work on the article.

Production

• "Sander Gommans started the composition of the basic melodies for Invisible Circles at the beginning of 2003..." - needs a reference
• There are a few sentences here that have references in the middle, try and move them to the end, it makes reading a little easier

--BelovedFreak 21:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC) Concept and storyline

• I've copyedited a little here, and cut down some of the bit about Gormanns' job, to try to make if fit better with the source. Please check that I haven't changed the meaning from what you wanted.
• I wonder if this section should be further up in the article, before the release of the album? I don't know, it's up to you, but in film articles, for example, the plot usually appears before the film release details.

Critical/commercial reception

• "As could be expected with such a complex album..." - this is original research
• "...but, as Eduardo Rivadavia says in his Allmusic review, this could be..." - this wording makes it sound as if you agree with Rivadavia, try and make it sound something like but, Eduardo Rivadavia said in his Allmusic review, that this could be
• "Maximum Metal reviewer states..." - this is missing an article
• "...lead vocals reach new heights of excellence..." - is this a quote? If so, needs quotation marks an attribution; if not, it's a bit flowery
• "In particular, the spoken dialogue ..." this sentence needs a reference
• "The album had good sales in the Benelux,..." - needs a reference
• Should "Top 100 Dutch chart" be "Mega Album Top 100"? (see MegaCharts)
• Are there names for the official Belgian charts?

References

• Go through and check that you have authors & dates for all that are available, and that titles in citations match the titles in the sources. Please add publishers where possible

External links

• I'm stll concerned that the YouTube link is to a copyright violation. Is there any reason not to think this? Is "Hawtpantz" someone official?

General

• Small thing, but try to make sure that citations come immediately after punctuation, with no space in between

It's looking good, you've obviously put a lot of work into it. If you can address these concerns, I think it would be worth trying for GA.--BelovedFreak 21:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)