Wikipedia:Peer review/Jane Grigson/archive1

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Jane Grigson[edit]

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Jane Grigson will be known to most as the writer of the food column for The Observer, or as the author of numerous books about European cuisines and traditional British dishes. Most of her books were not "recipe books", per se (although they obviously included stacks of eminently cookable recipes), but books about food – where it came from, its position in history and its social and cultural importance. This article has recently been through a major revamp and a path to FAC is the next obvious step. Before that, if anyone has any constructive comments, suggestions and criticisms, we would be delighted to hear them. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) & Tim riley talk 10:30, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the article is obviously in jolly good shape. Perhaps it would be helpful to separate Grigson's books from the general list of sources? Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:10, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that, CC. Glad you approve. SchroCat, chez Mrs David we did what Chiswick Chap suggests here. What think you? Tim riley talk 18:14, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent idea, CC. I wholeheartedly agree. - SchroCat (talk) 12:37, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Tweak ad lib, of course. Tim riley talk 14:06, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As expected from Schro & Tim, a fine article as ever. I have so far read up to the end of "Broadcasting". Comments so far:
  • Should "English Literature" really be capitalised? I would expect "English literature".
  • "Following Geoffrey Grigson's divorce from his first wife, he and Jane married in 1976 in Swindon." This note reads slightly strangely immediately following being told that Grigson's first wife refused to grant him a divorce. Perhaps something like "Geoffrey Grigson eventually divorced his first wife in 1976 [you'd better check that date: I don't have access to either source supporting this!], and he and Jane married that year in Swindon".
  • And on that note, the ODNB says that Jane was Geoffrey's third wife: his first, Frances (née Galt), died in the 1930s; the second, Berta (née Kunert), he divorced.
  • Tweaked all three as suggested. I've removed "first" from the divorce. - SchroCat (talk) 12:10, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Horton dropped out part-way through the project and, in 1967, she published Charcuterie and French Pork Cookery." she presumably refers to Grigson, not Horton, but (especially as "Adey" is not an obviously male name, though I believe Adey Horton was a man) this would be clearer if it were "...Grigson published..."
  • "Grigson's other choices were: [...] Geoffrey Grigson's reading of his own poem "Hollowed Stone"...": does this not come under the aforementioned "poetry recordings by her husband"?
  • "Russia had seemed likely to be another omission": as we haven't been given any examples of other omissions at this point, I might suggest "Russia had seemed likely to be one of the omissions..."
And mea culpa for this &ndash I realised afterwards that it was in a quote and went to self-revert but you had beaten me to it! Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:42, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • All done on the bottom three too (deleting "other" and "another" which sorts out the problems on the bottom two). Thank you very much Caeciliusinhorto, I'm much obliged, and we look forward to any other comments you have. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:10, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Joining my henchperson in thanking you, Caecilius. Very much obliged, and, like SchroCat I'm looking forward to any further suggestions you may like to make. Tim riley talk 12:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Only a few more comments:
  • "instancing beef or hare casseroled with prunes...": I raised an eyebrow at "instancing". Not incorrect, but not a common verb to use here.
  • To my surprise the OED gives no examples of such a use of the verb later than the 1870s. We could make this "citing as an instance" – the OED's definition. A bit more wordy – but SchroCat, what think you?
  • Either "citing as an instance" or "such as" would be fine with me. - SchroCat (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the US the book was published in 1983 by Atheneum, under the title, Jane Grigson's Book of European Cookery." I am fairly certain the final comma here is superfluous?
  • "connexion": the nineteenth century wants its orthography back. Why not "connection"?
    • The OED gives them equal billing, and this is the version I was brung up to use. SchroCat – thoughts?
      • Well I was born in the C20th, and I have never used "connexion" (ha!) I'm not over bothered with whichever version we have, but I suspect some people will question it as being unknown to them. - SchroCat (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well so was I born in the C20th, you cheeky young bugger, albeit not in the reign of our present monarch. Shall change, somewhat grumpily. Tim riley talk 20:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other previous winners include". 'previous' is unnecessary here: unless wikipedia is getting into the time-travel or divination business, they're hardly likely to be future winners!
All in all, the article is in excellent shape, and no doubt will be hitting WP:FAC in due course; when it does I expect I will be giving it my support. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:49, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these points, Caecilius: very helpful indeed. Tim riley talk 20:28, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I echo my earlier and Tim's current thanks on this: I am very grateful to your eagle eye on this. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from KJP1[edit]

It is indeed in excellent shape. My meagre gleanings below:

Lead
  • "She was awarded the John Florio Prize for Italian translation in 1966, and for her food books won three Glenfiddich Food and Drink Awards and two André Simon Memorial Prizes" - to me, the "for" reads slightly oddly. Is it necessary?
  • Is Eliza Acton accurately described as a writer of the "pre-Industrial Revolution era"? Our article dates the IR to 1760-1840, and Acton's dates are 1799-1859.
Early life; 1928 – 1964
  • "she later said that "I wished to rip everything off the walls and hang up [works by] Ben Nicholson. - I think the closing quote marks are missing here.
  • 'and it was there that Grigson developed a conviction that "because cooking is a central part of life it should be as carefully written about as any other art form", according to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography' - The ODNB hangs a bit oddly at the end of this sentence. Perhaps, 'and it was there, according to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography', that Grigson developed a conviction that "because cooking is a central part of life it should be as carefully written about as any other art form"?
Mid-1960s to mid-1970s
  • "While in France she "delighted in proving to ... [her] French friends the British cooking could be every bit as good as theirs" - is it really "the" rather than "that"?
  • "the extravagant, impossible, ridiculous Poulard Derbe" - I don't know whether the MoS recommends italicising names of dishes or not, but there appears to be some inconsistency. Here, no italics; in Broadcasting an italicised "carrots à la Forestière"; then in Works- 1970s, "homard à l'Americaine" with no italics; while in Works-1980s, they're back with a vengeance - fegato alla veneziana, poulet aux cinquante gousses d'ail, lapin à la moutarde and fricandeau à la oseille. Don't know which is right - I think I'd favour italics - but I think they should probably be consistent. Incidentally, homard a l'americane has a link on the French Wiki but you may not want to use this.
1978 to 1985
  • "He commented that the cuisines of all countries were covered" - if this was his comment, then so be it, but I doubt the cuisines of every, single country were covered. "many"?
  • "intriguing preparations for lesserknown vegetables" - a hyphen, or a space?
  • I queried this when Tim wrote the line, but it does have "lesserknown" in the original. - SchroCat (talk) 15:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There are splendid recipes, good general advice and useful tips in British Cooking" - should this be in italics, British Cooking?
1985 to 1990
  • "She also became involved in the opposition to development around Avebury" - I appreciate you give the link, but it reads like, Avebury, the village. Perhaps "development around Avebury henge/monument"?
  • "Her idea was to make an album" - is the "Her" referring to Knox or Grigson?
Broadcasting
  • "as artichokes stuffed with purée of broad beans" - perhaps, "as artichokes stuffed with a purée of broad beans"?
Batch 1 to end of Life. Further comments to follow. KJP1 (talk) 10:26, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks KJP1, all done, with one exception, for which I've given an explanation. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Works - 1960s
  • "Later chapters deal with charcuterie equipment; herbs and seasonings; and sauces and relishes." - I hesitate (!) but here, and further on, you use semicolons; would commas not suffice? Or is it a Chapters division, in which case, ignore me?
    • I take over from SchroCat from here (he did the Life and I the Works). I used the semicolons for clarity – if I'd said "herbs and seasonings, and sauces and relishes" it would be less clear, I think, that there were two different chapters here. But I don't dig my heels in about it and will change if a consensus is agin me. Tim riley talk 16:38, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
English Food 1974
  • "The book contains mostly English recipes, but draws from time to time on the cuisine of Wales" - more for interest than anything else, might it be worth giving an example of a Welsh recipe. i.e. "...the cuisine of Wales, with dishes such as flummery", or whatever example Grigson does give?
Looking into this I find there are some Scottish dishes as well. I've amended accordingly. Not sure about mentioning examples of Welsh and Scottish dishes: might give then undue weight to single them out. SchroCat, what think you? By all means add a couple if you're inclined. (You have a copy of the book if I remember correctly?) Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do. Looking through I see scant evidence of Scottish recipes (unless Scotch Rabbit counts), but there is a listing of some Welsh recipes. I think we should just leave it as is, without exemplifying any more than we do already. - SchroCat (talk) 10:51, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Somewhat to my chagrin, this is all I can find to pick at in the Works section, which will make TR rather smug.
Too late. I was smug already. Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Style and legacy
  • "Alan Davidson, in Grigson's obituary in The Independent, wrote" - given that the previous sentence says it's obituaries that we're talking about, I wonder if just "Alan Davidson, in The Independent, wrote"?
Pruned. Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1992 the International Association of Culinary Professionals introduced the optional Jane Grigson Award" - what is an "optional" award? Following the links, it appears to be an award unaligned to a specific category?
Pruned. We can manage without the adjective. Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sources
  • Only a preference, but I wonder if we need "Jane Grigson" appearing 19 times in a list of "Cited books by Jane Grigson"? authormask?
I rather agree. SchroCat, I've pruned, but by all means unprune or otherwise alter if you prefer. Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No: I'm happy with how you've left it now, which matches the format of ED. - SchroCat (talk) 10:51, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Uber-picky - the second work, "Notes from an Odd Country" appears to be by Geoffrey Grigson alone? Worldcat doesn't suggest that JG contributed. Does it therefore belong in the list of Cited books by JG?
Shifted. Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Other cited books
  • Mary Abbott and Hazel Castell are missing publishers' locations.
Added. Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's it from me. Excellent article and look forward to supporting at FAC. KJP1 (talk) 07:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, KJ, for a thorough and helpful review. I think we're pretty much ready to go to FAC now. Tim riley talk 09:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Echoing my thanks too KJP1: I'm much obliged to your thoughts here. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:51, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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