Wikipedia:Peer review/Worlds End State Park/archive1

Worlds End State Park

This peer review discussion has been closed.
We've listed this article for peer review because we believe that it could be a Featured Article. We are looking for some feedback on this article before it is submitted for FA. It has been thoroughly researched and we believe that with some changes suggested in the PR process that it will be shortly ready for FA. It follows a format and style very similar to that of Black Moshannon State Park which is a featured article that we worked on.

Thanks, Dincher (talk) 19:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC) and Ruhrfisch 

Comments Although this is not really my area of expertise, I'm happy to look over the article and review it.

• "its rocks contain fossils older than the dinosaurs." - This may be true, but it is perhaps a little simplistic. Might be better to give the name of the epoch, even if the dinosaurs bit is kept in, i.e. "its rocks contain fossils from the Carboniferous period, substantially older than the dinosaurs."

• I tweaked the lead and made it a hopefully better summary of the whole article in the process. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• The lead is better, but looking at that specific bit again I have another comment. "which are substantially older than the dinosaurs." really is unnecessary and although I am ambivalent about it you might well be asked to remove it come FAC. Think about it, I leave it up to you.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• It is out now - a source on geology on the park uses the phrase, so we liked it, but it does not seem to fit the encyclopedic tone here. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Decimated by" - Always be wary of using the term decimated, I once failed an FAC because of an argument I had with a user who insisted that decimate meant "the death of one in ten of the population". The ensuing row caused the early closure of the FAC and quite a bit of bad feeling. If you want to use it, have a good dictionary to hand.

• Changed to Their numbers were greatly reduced by disease and warfare with the Five Nations of the Iroquois, and by 1675 they had died out, moved away, or been assimilated into other tribes. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• "In 1951 the Loyalsock Trail, which passes through the park, was laid out by Explorer Scouts. The trail has been maintained and extended by the Alpine Club of Williamsport since 1953." - I'm using this as an example of something that happens several times in the text, which is where a short sentence comes after a longer one and appears at first glance unnconnected with it, breaking the flow of the prose. The solution to this is to slightly change the beginning of the second sentence to more closely correspond with the end of the previous one. In this instance, this is as simple as: "by Explorer Scouts. This trail has been" in others it ma be slightly more complex. This is a minor thing but it is an issue which can cause trouble at FAC, where the prose quality is required to be very high indeed.

• That one has been fixed and hopefully the others too. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• Some paragraphs are only two or three sentences long, which makes them seem a little stubby. This may not be a problem at FAC, but is a pet peeve of mine. If feasible have a look and see if any can be extended or merged to make them more substantial.

I believe all of the very short paragraphs have been fixed now. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• Any chance of more images? Especially of trees, wildlife or rock formations found in the park?

• I uploaded two more and will work on getting more soon. Thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• The article now has 13 photos and 2 maps - thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise a throughly fascinating read, makes me want to visit, no matter how unlikely it is I will ever set foot in Pennsylvania. Good job.--Jackyd101 (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks so much for your kind words and helpful comments, we will work on the other two points too. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You are more than welcome. If you need help with anything else please drop me a line.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click here. Thanks, APR _t 01:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• In the intro: "The land the park is on was once home to Native Americans, followed by settlers and sawmills."

• Suggest "...followed by settlers who built sawmills" or something similar (I doubt sawmills can pick up and follow settlers).

• In the cabins section: "There are 19 rustic cabins, each with a refrigerator, range, fireplace, table with chairs, and beds."

• Suggest changing range to stove (for me, at least, stove is more common than range).

Very well written, shouldn't be too hard to get it promoted. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​^{talk•contribs} 16:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed both of them. Thanks! Dincher (talk) 16:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)

• the Taber Thomas T. Williamsport Lumber Capital has no ISBN, is this a self published book? If so, does it meet the self-publishing guidelines?
  • It is self-published, but Taber is a respected local historian (the Lycoming County Historical Museum is named for him, see here) so I feel it meets guidelines. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
• What makes http://www.lycoming.org/alpine/Lthistory.htm a reliable source?
  • It is the official website of the organization that maintains the Loyalsock Trail and is used only to reference two non-controversial dates in the trail's history. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise the sources look good. You said you wished to go to FA with this, and I've checked over the sources like I would have at FAC. I did not read the prose or do any checking of the prose. 21:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comments and keen eye, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments from VerruckteDan (talk · contribs)

• In the trails section 4 of the 7 trail descriptions start off with "___ Trail is a xx-mile (km) trail...", while the others use slightly different language. I think all 7 should use similar language and I prefer the format above.
• Perhaps the references should be listed in a 2-column format, I think that will make it easier to read.
• Otherwise, it looks like another great article. You two definitely produce some of the best researched articles on Wikipedia, and I always enjoy reading them. I look forward to the FAC for Worlds End. VerruckteDan (talk) 20:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the trail bit. I fixed it. I tried fixing the references as you suggested by adding the reflist|2 template. But I cannot see any change on my computer. I remember seeing this added to Presque Isle State Park and puzzling over it. I puzzed till my puzzler was sore. Thanks for the kind words too! Dincher (talk) 20:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think {{Reflist}} doesn't display 2 multiple columns in IE, only in Forefox. If that's not the issue preventing you from seeing it, then I'm also stumped. I like the way it looks in Presque Isle as 2 columns, however on Worlds End, the inclusion of the Commons box in the references section keeps the reference text bunched to the left instead of wrapping around the box. I don't know what the guidelines are not locating the Commons box, but the reference section doesn't seem like the right place. VerruckteDan (talk) 21:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I am going to take it off for now. I have IE and have never even seen Firefox and haven't seen Netscape in years. Ruhr asked me about what kind of system I have and all I knew was that I had the blue e. So I am pretty much a dope when it comes to this question. Perhaps he knows more. Dincher (talk) 22:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Dan, as always. The {{Commonscat}} was in the wrong place per the MOS so I moved it to External links (and fixed Black Moshannon State Park too). I also added "|2" back to reflist, but Dinch is right - it does not display as two columns in IE. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Ben MacDui (talk · contribs)

Lead

fossils from the Carboniferous period, which are substantially older than the dinosaurs. Yes indeed. They are also younger than the moon and older than a model T Ford. What's the purpose of the comparison (per comments above).

eliminated the bit abou them being older than the dinosaurs. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Horse trails

the forks of Loyalsock Creek at Forksville. A little over-forky. Is there a synonym for 'forks' that could be used?

changed from forks to confluence. I hope this is correct. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is the confluence of Little Loyalsock Creek and Loyalsock Creek at Forksville, so I tweaked it, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Lumber became one of the leading industries in Pennsylvania. - The sentence seems abrupt. "Lumber thus became"?

added thus Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Geology

The park is in the Endless Mountains region of the Allegheny Plateau, which formed in the Alleghenian orogeny. I think the mountains were so formed but the region might have been there already.

Will leave this for Ruhrfisch. He knows more about the rocks than me. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The Allegheny Plateau formed in the Alleghanian orogeny. The "Endless Mountains" are a result of later erosion of the plateau - it is a dissected plateau. I have tweaked the article accordingly - thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Fossils older than the dinosaurs have been found in Worlds End State Park. - see above.

Now they are just fossils. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ecology

First sentence - link to Serpentine shape (cf serpentine).

changed the link, thanks. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I assume from Hemiptera that 'true bug' is acceptable US nomenclature. Its certainly not GB English. Likewise "big woods".

Not sure about this. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is fine in US English, but I have changed it to hemiptera so it is fine worldwide. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Wildlife

everything is plural in the list that includes Timber Rattlesnake, except the snake itself.

rattlesnakes, thanks. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

no period in image. Ditto Trails.

placed both periods. Thanks. Dincher (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The Pennsylvania Audubon Society has designated the IBA, which is an area designated as a globally important habitat for the conservation of bird populations. - Do you mean all IBAs are so designated, or this one in particular?

Hopefully fixed this. I am not sure. Dincher (talk) 23:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

IBAs are so designated by a national organization, in the US this is the Audubon Society (or its state chapters). I changed it a little bit as the previous tweak made it sound like PA Audubon designated all IBAs around the world. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Magnolia, Mourning, Nashville, and Yellow-rumped warbler. No need for the final 'warbler'.

final warbler gone. Dincher (talk) 22:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hunting

Ruffed Grouse, Eastern Gray Squirrels are linked twice.

fixed them. Thanks. Dincher (talk) 22:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

"attention....A boater's" - not sure what MOS says but it looks like there is a missing space.

I agree it doesn't look correct, but the other way isn't much better. Dincher (talk) 23:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:MOS#Ellipses says to Put a space on each side of an ellipsis, except at the very start or end of a quotation. I have fixed all three of them. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The whitewater gradient is 41 - this may be some kind of canoeists system. It may be 1 in 41 for example. Best to explain this in terms of a common system as per Grade (slope)

Not sure what to do on this one. Dincher (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I double checked Gertler's book and it is a drop of 41 feet per mile, so I added that and did the metric conversion and put that in too. Thanks for a good catch, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

so those interested in getting in the water are asked to use kayaks. I know what you mean but I think its a little wordy. 'so visitors are asked'?

fixed this. Dincher (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Cabins

and camper campground. Assume the last word is US English.

Do you mean campground? I am surprised this isn't used outside the US. What is? Dincher (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I wikilinked camper as Recreational vehicle Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

are located near the campground. 'located nearby.' might be better.

nearby it is. Dincher (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

As of 2008, lifeguards are not posted at the swimming area beach. Implies previous presence 'no longer posted'?

re-worded Dincher (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

See also

Not sure what MOS says, but it might be helpful to add 'disambiguation page' or 'other uses of the name' to the text.

added "disambiguation page" to this section Dincher (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I think I was able to make most of the adjustments suggested. Dincher (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I second the thanks and believe I got the rest of the adjustments, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Reference suggestions:

5. Williamsport Sun-Gazette may need italics. Likewise 7 & 16. No bracket around publication date

fixed these. Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

6. Denise W.. & no (pdf)

PDF won't take perhaps this is because it is cite book instead of cite web Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I got PDF in with the format parameter Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

8. No final period

got it. Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

10. Runk & Co..

fixed it. Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

18, 30, 38, 39, 42, 45. No (pdf)

PDFs for 18, 30, 38, 39 not for 42 & 45 perhaps because these are cite map instead of cite web. Dincher

(talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Fixed 45 but 42 is {{cite map}} and has no format parameter Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

25, 26. No italics for NY Times

got them Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

33, 40. Too much italics?

I don't know. Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

It is the full title and is in at least three FAs this way. I did catch that 33 and 40 were the same ref and combined them (so now only 33). Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

34. Should 83 be bold?

I don't know. Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I looked at {{cite book}} and it uses pp. so I added "p." to make clear it is a page number. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

12, 14, 43 & 46-50. No quotes for title - quite a few more I didn't list.

I think I got them all. Dincher (talk) 19:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

44. Dodgy colon and italics.

Don't know about this either. Dincher (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

It used to say Note: and somehow the word "Note" was omitted. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

End of ref comments Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 14:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Just got back from a wikibreak - thanks MacDui. I will look at the things with questions remaining in the next day or so, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much - I think I have fixed all of the things Dincher was not sure of. We really appreciate your very careful reading and helpful comments, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)