Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/A Child of Our Time

A Child of Our Time[edit]

This nomination predates the introduction in April 2014 of article-specific subpages for nominations and has been created from the edit history of Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests.

This is the archived discussion of the TFAR nomination for the article below. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/requests). Please do not modify this page.

The result was: scheduled for Wikipedia:Today's featured article/November 9, 2013 by Bencherlite ^Talk 21:27, 21 October 2013‎ (UTC)[reply]

A Child of Our Time is a secular oratorio by the British composer Michael Tippett (1905–98). It was inspired by events in 1938 that had affected Tippett profoundly: the assassination of a German diplomat by a young Jewish refugee (Herschel Grynszpan, pictured) and the Nazi government's reaction in the form of the so-called Kristallnacht—a vicious pogrom against Germany's Jewish population on the night of 9–10 November. Tippett uses these incidents to represent the experiences of all oppressed peoples, in the context of a pacifist message of ultimate understanding and reconciliation. The text's recurrent themes of shadow and light reflect the Jungian psychoanalysis which Tippett underwent in the years immediately before writing the work. The oratorio's most original feature is the use of African American spirituals, which perform the function allocated in Bach's Passions to chorales; Tippett believed that these songs of oppression possess a universality absent from specifically Christian and other hymns. A Child of Our Time was well received on its first performance in 1944 at the Adelphi Theatre, London, and has since been performed all over the world in many languages. (Full article...)

1 point for relation to the date, 1 for 1 year TFA, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, if you're going for the 75th anniversary of Kristallnacht, that's worth two points i.e. 3 points total. Bencherlite ^Talk 19:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. It may be possible to find an appropriate free image. Also I will edit the blurb. The date relevance is the 75th anniversary of the Kristallnacht pogrom which is the theme of the oratorio; the date relevance may not earn points. But the anniversary should be recognised, and there is no other featured article that can be used. Brianboulton (talk) 23:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for explaining what I thought everyone knew ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Relevant to date, important topic, I wonder if an image from Kristallnacht would work? Maybe don't say "so-called" in the blurb, that implies dispute that doesn't exist, I'd just say "commonly known as..." or something similar. Montanabw^(talk) 06:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We tend to add so-called, because for those who don't know "crystal night" might carry positive connotations, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On images, the problem is finding one that is indubitably free. On the Kristallnacht article there are numerous images, but I am inclined to question the validity of most of the licensing. The most appropriate to use would be that of the "Child" himself, File:Bundesarchiv Bild 146-1988-078-07, Herschel Feibel Grynszpan.jpg, but the source link, unfortunately, is showing "page not found". Another, weaker candidate is the Kristallnicht memorial plaque, File:Plaque on the New Synagogue.JPG. There's a few weeks left to determine what would be the most appropriate allowable image. Brianboulton (talk) 13:41, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll tweak the Commons reference: there's another copy of the image elsewhere on the site, which should serve just as well as the previous listing. - SchroCat (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image source should now be OK, so I've added it in: feel free to remove is you're still not happy about the sourcing, or if you decide not to have it. - SchroCat (talk) 16:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton, when you edit the blurb, can you find a way of working in a reference to the picture? Otherwise readers won't know who he is. Thanks. What with Bizet, Pearl Fishers, this and Benjamin Britten all running or suggested between late September and late November, I think we may have reached a classical music limit for now - we can have too much of a good thing! Bencherlite ^Talk 21:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. This is much less classical music than a topic related to a historical event. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:26, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the article is predominantly about the music, its composer and the composition process rather than the historical event that inspired it. I would agree that it's suitable to mark Kristallnacht but that doesn't mean that it's predominately about Kristallnacht. Bencherlite ^Talk 21:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my too sloppy language. I - not Brian - nominated it for being a decent article related to the historical event. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...But it is essentially a "music" article, and was written as such. For Bencherlite's information – after Britten (22 November) I have no further plans to nominate another classical music-related article before June 1914, nearly seven months ahead. That should be a long enough hiatus, though I can't speak for other editors. Brianboulton (talk) 23:03, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Seven months ahead, 100 years back. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, BB. I'm sure if we ran too many classical music articles I'd get criticised in the same way as I've been criticised for running too many mushroom articles... I don't think that the four I mentioned are too many for a two-month period but it was as much a "note to self" as a note to others that we need to keep an eye on balance over time. I'm sure we can find space for some classical music between November and June, anyway. Bencherlite ^Talk 23:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Balance is one aspect, date relevance another. I think it would make no sense to show BB (Benjamin Britten) any other day but his 100th anniversary, nor this oratorio on a day other than 9 November. I would prefer an image related to the date significance rather than the composer - or none, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you have your wish with the presently suggested image for this article, that of Grynszpan (once we are sure there are no copyvio issues). I agree that 22 November 2013 is the most relevant date for Britten, but it's also the 50th anniversary of JFK's assassination, so there could be some competition. Brianboulton (talk) 12:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO, I think you can use the kristallnacht logic to explain why "yet another" music article is running, given, in this case because there probably hasn't been a holocaust-related article any time in the recent past (?) and apparently nothing else useable for that date if we want to acknowledge the event. An article CAN be "about" more than one thing, even if there is more emphasis on the music than the event (the blurb could be further tweaked to emphasize the event for MP readers, though). As for Britten, (which is getting off topic, but...) given that TFA seems to run from GMT (yes?) that means a JFK article running midnight GMT on the 22nd to midnight on the 23rd puts it up from morning until early evening in the states, where it matters most; so Britten could run on the 21st in a "his birthday is tomorrow" way... that way, he'd be up the night before in the states for awhile, and into the day in the UK, where he is a native. Montanabw^(talk) 19:12, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is an aside, but I'm not sure what JFK article would be running? I don't see anything at FA (or currently on the way) which would be up for that date, unless I've missed something? - SchroCat (talk) 19:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) No-one, especially not me, is saying that this article should not run; I'm just keeping an eye on how many classical music articles are at TFA over a couple of months. We're about right at the moment - too many more and we risk emptying the cookie jar, and running classical music TFAs out of proportion to others (see User:Bencherlite/TFA notepad#Going just by the numbers... for the maths). As for Britten/Kennedy, I don't think anyone has identified a Kennedy-related article that might clash with Britten, so we don't need to work out a solution now, and that is a discussion for the future, anyway. Bencherlite ^Talk 19:52, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I take Bencherlite's point that there have been a lot of classical music TFAs of late but I think we ought to recognise Kristallnacht, given that there is a related article. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:01, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited the blurb. If more needs to be lost, the last seven words are dispensable. Brianboulton (talk) 10:46, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I've reworded it slightly to give more emphasis on the date relevance for the TFA. I've also noticed a mis-match between "Kristallnacht" (plain font) in this article and the article Kristallnacht (which uses italics) so I'm starting a talk-page discussion on that. Bencherlite ^Talk 11:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Essentially per Espresso Addict (talk · contribs), above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 01:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]