Wikipedia:WikiProject Highways/Assessment/A-Class Review/2007

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New Jersey Route 33

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article was not promoted --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 01:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

New Jersey Route 33 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) review

Suggestion: Promote to A-Class
Nominator's comments: New Jersey Route 33 has been a GA for about 5 months now. I requested a peer review at WP:PR and nothing really happened. I've decided to send it here for an opinion
Nominated by:.Mitch32contribs 23:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The following issues need to be resolved (I am simply talking about grammar here, not criteria - before we address the criteria, the grammar issues need to be resolved): --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Remove the 2nd paragraph of the lead.
    • Route des: first sentence would be better in the lead.
    • After, after, after... find another word.
    • Again with "avenue."
    • "what would have been a Route 33 freeway from Neptune to Trenton" Restructure. Route 33 should not be an adjective.
    • "scaled back" be more specific.
    • "Instead, a diamond interchange was built." a bit choppy
    • "This forced drivers wishing to head northbound on Howell Road to make a left turn," how so?
    • "Now because the NJDOT does not want to pay to fix the problem, the exit has been barricaded since the freeways extension was opened." - add a comma after Now or remove it.
    • "The ramp has guardrails blocking access and the NJDOT intends to bulldoze what is left." access to what? also, put a comma before and.
    • "Route 33 originally was part of the 1920s New Jersey Route 1 in parts of the road south of Hightstown and as Route 7 from Hightstown to its terminus at Route 71." Restructure. 1920's should have an apostrophe, and should not be an adjective. In parts? Be more specific.
    • "Both roads were changed into Route 33 in the 1927 New Jersey state highway renumbering." You could use a different word besides "changed."
    • "However, in 1967, the NJDOT scaled back proposals to the current seven-mile Freehold Bypass." - restructure, the sentence is ambiguous.
    • "in eastbound order." What is eastbound order?
    • "The cloverleaf ramp from Route 79 southbound to Route 33 freeway eastbound has been mostly destroyed, to make way for a new reverse jughandle for U.S. Route 9 northbound to Schanck Road." No comma. What is a reverse jughandle?
    • "The merging part of the ramp still remains abandoned along the right side of the eastbound freeway." Ramps are used for merging. What do you mean?
    • "The original alignment for the freeway east of Halls Mills Road (CR 55) can be seen now as an NJDOT maintenance shed." too ambiguous
    • "The new alignment curves to the left after the interchange, in order to avoid what the NJDOT believed to be a suspected (but never identified) turtle bog habitat." You mean a turtle bog animal? Or a bog habitat with turtles?
    • "The pavement is accessible from the eastbound on-ramp, but is fenced off." No hyphen.
    • "Howell Road was never given access from Route 33 eastbound and thus the ramp still remains barricaded off, slowly decaying." Given? Also, this is a run-on, please fix. In addition, a ramp cannot decay - it's concrete. At least, not within the next century- find a better word.
    • "There are many future developments for Route 33." redundant
    • "Heavy traffic and recent studies hint at a possible widening of Route 33 all the way to Route 34 in Wall Township, however this is still only in the proposal phase." - run-on, and traffic does not hint at widening, only that it is needed.
    • "Monmouth County is performing a corridor study on Route 33 to determine if any action should happen." action of what sort?
    • "e Collingwood Circle is scheduled for replacement with a smaller roundabout, starting Fall 2006." MOS hates season names, and season names are not capitalized regardless. Also, it's already started... get updated info?
    • "but with such heavy traffic on both Route 33 and Route 34." .... what? Don't end your sentence with a incomplete subordinate clause.
    • "It does not seem likely that this will solve the congestion issue and the NJDOT will likely reconstruct it a decade from now like the former Route 35 and Route 36 Circle in Eatontown." - speculation
    • "There is a planned Route 33 bypass of Robbinsville Township that will run from Washington Boulevard and link up with U.S. Route 130 at South Gold Drive." It's bypassing Route 33?
    • "The former alignment of Route 33 will likely become a Main Street for the new Washington Town Center." - speculation...
    • "On December 31, 2006, the Turnpike Authority released its proposals regarding Interchange 8." exit 8? Regardless, don't capitalize it.
    • "133 bypass" don't use such a colloquial name
    • "DOT officials" What is DOT?
  • Oppose The lead needs a lot of work, should be an overall summary of the article, it doesn't mention the history or future sections at all. Also need to change the bulleted part of the history, put into prose. --Holderca1 talk 01:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Also, why is the junction list split into three separate tables? Should be combined into one table. --Holderca1 talk 13:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
      • One is an exit list table. In hindsight, this should be moved to its own section and the major intersections combined (and I know, I was the one who suggested this setup, sorry about that). --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
        • The setup that you guys are suggesting right now is debatable, since I'd prefer continuity than separation. Northenglish and a few others (can't remember which) supports it. 哦， 是吗？(User:O) 19:38, 17 November 2007 (GMT)
          • All of the CASH articles that have been set up for ELG use this format. --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:45, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pennsylvania Route 73

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Withdrew nomination. Article has even more problems and I don't have much time to fix them. —JA10 Talk • Contribs 21:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Route 73 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) review

Suggestion: Promote to A-Class
Nominator's comments: Currently a good article nominee, PA 73 will also be a good candidate for A class.
Nominated by: —JA10 Talk • Contribs 00:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose for a few reasons.
    • There's no formatting issues that stand out here, but some of the prose in the history can be refined and tightened. There are a considerable number of short, related sentences that can be combined or reworded to form a solid, complete sentence.
    • The route also has some history dating back to the 1911 legislative routes that isn't addressed in the article. Check out the 1911 PA map.
    • Some of the lengths lack non-breaking spaces (MOS:NUM).
    • After looking at the original route, the current route, and the text, it looks like the route's been rerouted in the vicinity of both Reading and Philadelphia. This should be addressed in the lead, but it doesn't need to be as nearly as detailed as the descriptions in the history. The rest of the lead should be lengthened as well, possibly including major roads intersected and major communities along the route - ones that help to give a brief overview of the progression of the road (and likewise of the article).
    • That's all I see for now. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 04:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Interstate 355

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article was promoted --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 14:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Interstate 355 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) review

Suggestion: Promote to A-Class
Nominator's comments: Only open issue regarding GA promotion are that the word "tollway" is used a wee bit too much. I agree, but felt using the generic term "road" would hint that it's a free road, which it's not.
Nominated by: —Rob (talk) 17:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose, this article is not compliant with either WP:ELG or WP:USRD/INNA. Per ELG, abbreviations are to be used for the displayed text for links in the exit list; per INNA, abbreviations are to be used in the infobox. The ", IL" that is tacked onto every link in the infobox is redundant; the entire route is in Illinois. I haven't actually read the article yet, so my opinion may change if these issues are corrected. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 21:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Fixed. I forgot about the abbreviations, in spite of my dislike of that particular decision. I'm in the process of addressing the rest... —Rob (talk) 06:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Opposition struck. I'm currently neutral; I'll see how the article develops over the next day or so. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 07:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support, definitely a much better article than the one that passed WP:GA and the one that originally arrived here. All of my concerns have been addressed, and to me, it's good enough for A-Class now. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 06:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose I have to echo TMF's comments here, but I also have lots of my own:
    • Two out of the four links in the external links section fail WP:EL.
      • Which 2? These links used to be important before the article was sourced, but all of them (save the official tollway one) can probably leave, to be honest. —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Ref #5 is not a reliable source.
      • Ref #5 leads to the State of Illinois' GIS data. Which contains precise, US government-validated (more likely, the US Government uses the IL GIS as a source for its figures) distance figures. If you're going to call it a primary statistical source, fine, but I'm not analyzing the data and calling it original research - I'm repeating verbatim what the state said about the distance of the tollway. —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
      • I concur with the above, if a government source isn't reliable, then I don't know what is. —JA10 Talk • Contribs 07:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Took a while but Fixed. —JA10 Talk • Contribs 21:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
    • History section needs a hell lot more sources than this. This is pathetic.
      • Ah, I'm feeling feeling the constructive criticism tonight. I thought this page was to avoid the atmosphere of WP:FA nominations. No matter. Maybe 14 sources in 14 paragraphs (the vast majority in the Southern Extension section, to no one's surprise) isn't enough, but it's a little difficult to dig into articles in the 1989-1992 era. I haven't given up yet, but progress on that front will be slow, to say the least, which is why it won't be a featured article for some time. But if the rest of the article looked like the Southern Extension section, it would much more resemble a FA. —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes, I agree, O went a little too far there. —JA10 Talk • Contribs 07:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
        • If you think I'm strict, think again. 哦， 是吗？(User:O) 22:12, 26 November 2007 (GMT)
          • You can be strict and have a helpful nature about it. The pathetic comment was unnecessary and the first sentence could have been worded differently while getting the same point across. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 22:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
          • Agreed with JA10 / TMF, O. That was out of line. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
    • The route description needs a rewrite. It's too boring for people with short attention spans, and it is disorganised.
      • Agreed. Haven't touched this in two years. Can't really find a way to make route descriptions be interesting, but I'll take a shot at it. —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
        • This was rewritten. —Rob (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Does the Veterans Memorial Tollway Bicycle Trail section belong in the route description?
      • ...maybe? I know it's somewhat integral to the article (in the "wow, ISTHA acknowledged another form of transportation!" sense) but there currently doesn't exist a section for add-ons. Maybe it should be merged with Southern Extension. —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
        • This was moved into the Southern Extension history. —Rob (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
    • After you are done with a rewrite of the route description and better sourcing of the history section, move the history section above the route description, as it is going to be much more interesting than the route description.
      • Agree. This has been thrown around recently as something that should be done for all articles. —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
        • This is done. —Rob (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Can I have a source for the Chicagoland traffic reports?
      • Hopefully. That one and the "there used to only be 2 lanes" part of the article I need to find somewhere. I don't think "WBBM 780 AM, 2007-11-26, 10:08 AM" would be a reliable source. —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
        • I pulled that paragraph from the article... I'm aware that it may be done, but unless some policy paper from Shadow Traffic or somewhere shows up regarding how this is reported on, I can't really source it. (That said, I'm willing to send that email.) —Rob (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Also would like to note that I'm aware that a lot of the early history is based on 18 years of traveling up and down said highway. So some stuff is in there that is very much can't-be-referenced-yet, seeing as memories can't be referenced, but is not patently false. The next best thing is a microfiche in some library, somewhere. —Rob (talk) 07:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
    • PM is not formatted correctly; MOS:DATE says to use p.m.
      • Fixed —Rob (talk) 07:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Numbers and units must have a non-breaking space between them. (MOS:NUM)
      • Fixed. Hopefully {{convert}} uses non-breaking spaces... —Rob (talk) 07:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I-355 currently has six lanes, three in each direction, along its entire length.—Stubby paragraph; they may not appear anywhere in the article, and they are everywhere. It's also unsourced, unless you can display a picture to prove that.
      • ...There's two, but I don't think that's enough. I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in a source. I'll look later, but those sources may have fallen into paid archives by now... :-( —Rob (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
        • Perhaps you could take one when you have the time? 哦， 是吗？(User:O) 21:23, 27 November 2007 (GMT)
          • Would a reference to an aerial map work? All are up-to-date regarding how many lanes I-355 has. —Rob (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
            • An aerial map is discouraged as they rarely get updated regularly. For example, the old look of Clayton, Missouri looked just like how it looked when I moved out of there. 哦， 是吗？(User:O) 22:25, 28 November 2007 (GMT)
    • That's all I have to say for now. 哦， 是吗？(User:O) 23:39, 25 November 2007 (GMT)
  • Support – I found this article compelling and well-written, certainly well enough for the A-Class level. When the reference problems are sorted out, by all means, take it to FA. —Scott5114↗ 07:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
  • This comment is following up from my previous one: the lead does not adequately summarise the entire article, including the history and the southern extension. 哦， 是吗？(User:O) 21:27, 27 November 2007 (GMT)
    • I think it's addressed, and I'll continue to take looks at it. Pending things are sources for history section, finding original sources for IL state highways page ref (now ref #3) and rewrite of the route description. —Rob (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Looking better... new Route Description section could use a copyedit using someone else's eyes. I'm going to add the plaza numbers as well. —Rob (talk) 20:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
        • An email to the Illinois Tollway has been sent regarding replacements for the IL Highways Page source. I'm not expecting a response. I might also ask Rich flat out what his source was for his information... only nicely. :-D —Rob (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Looks good enough to me. —JA10 Talk • Contribs 21:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Only issues I have are that the route description should be before the history. Also, the interchange types are not defined or linked to. Otherwise, this is a comprehensive article. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • There is a rationale above... I figured in general that it was still an open issue as far as the project was concerned. Interchanges... I'll peek at the guide and give it a thought. Can't really cite them, in spite of the fact they're all cloverleafs or diamonds. —Rob (talk) 06:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, who closes this discussion and when? —Rob (talk) 02:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

From the ACR page, "After seven days, or, in the event consensus is unclear regarding an article after a week, when consensus is determined, the discussion can be closed." So, at the earliest, the discussion would be closed December 2, although with the ongoing discussions, it may be extended if necessary. As for who...ideally a USRD editor who wasn't involved in the ACR. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 02:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Might want to sift through the entire prose here; I just saw one instance of apostrophe abuse, and possibly some MOS:NUM issues. There are still stubby paragraphs scattered around. 哦， 是吗？(review O) 01:02, 04 December 2007 (GMT)
    • There are less stubby paragraphs now (without the threat of a cite tag, too, I do believe) and the whole thing should flow. Also took care of the apostrophes. —Rob (talk) 01:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Almost there…there's still one stubby paragraph, and the middle paragraph of the opening subsection is unsourced. 哦， 是吗？(review O) 06:07, 06 December 2007 (GMT)
        • Heh. Thanks to the Carol Stream Public Library for allowing access to some crucial resources for its patrons online. There will be more opening information and sources by the end of the day. —Rob (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • This review was due to end on December 2...it is now December 8. Any thoughts on the article? --Son (talk) 04:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Well, it wasn't "due" to end, that was the earliest date that it could have been closed. Since there's ongoing discussion and improvements being made, and the fact that there's nothing requiring us to allow only seven days for each review when there's still activity on the seventh day, it doesn't hurt to go a few extra days to make sure the article isn't shortchanged. Generally, in a case like this where we go overtime, I'd say a review could be closed five days or so after the last content-related comment, but that's just me. --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 06:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Agreed... I'm sure the FA process will bring (many) extra pairs of eyes to the article (especially to that early history section), but for A-class purposes it seems as though most/all concerns have been addressed, and I haven't planned on adding anything major before then. —Rob (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
        • I move to close this as promote to A-class. The problems have been addressed and consensus leans to promote. --Son (talk) 18:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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