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Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/The Perfect Season[edit]

We now have articles on roughly 740 college football teams that compiled perfect seasons. There are 120 remaining perfect seasons from the last 100 years that lack articles. Please take a look at "The List", and, if you're inspired to do so, create an article on one of these remaining teams. Cbl62 (talk) 22:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl62, great work leading the charge on this effort. On a related note, we could some team season article creation to combat the Template:Cfb link call limit crisis on the national season articles, which contains all the standings templates, which in turn make lots of cfb link calls where there is no season article. The following seasons are over the limit:

If you choose to tackle the perfect seasons effort, it would be great if you could prioritize conference-member teams from these seasons. Additionally, there are many more non-perfect undefeated seasons, conference championship seasons, and current Division I team seasons from these years that warrant articles. I've been chipping away on these seasons in "crisis", but I can use some help!

At this point, the conference standings templates for these seasons are largely complete. Among extant conferences, we're only missing a bunch from the Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference (the data here is readily available from the conference website and newspapers.com) and the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (these will be a tougher to pin down). Jweiss11 (talk) 22:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Only eight four left "to do" from the last 70 years since 1954 1950. Cbl62 (talk) 03:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've been working away at 1949, but I could some help with all these seasons in crisis. Patriarca12, BeanieFan11, would be great to get your attention here. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CFB featured article candidate[edit]

Hi all - I have nominated 1921 Centre vs. Harvard football game for featured status but the nomination has not attracted many reviewers. If any of you have the time or interest to give the article a read and leave some feedback or a review there, it would be much appreciated. Thanks! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge discussion at 2023–24 College Football Playoff[edit]

Hi all - there is a merge discussion at 2023–24 College Football Playoff that has stalled in the last month - I would like to wrap this up so that either my DYK nom can proceed or the article can be merged and I will know not to work on any other articles of this kind. Opinions would be very welcome here. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In general, the content is well written and well sourced. However, detail about the 2024 Rose Bowl belongs in 2024 Rose Bowl, detail about the 2024 Sugar Bowl belongs in 2024 Sugar Bowl, and detail about 2024 College Football Playoff National Championship game belongs in 2024 College Football Playoff National Championship. Readers should find detail about notable games in the main game articles, not a higher-level article. Significantly thinning the "Playoff games" section, by moving game details into the game articles (especially for Rose and Sugar, whose articles currently lack prose recaps), would allow this article to focus on "Selection and teams", "Exclusion of Florida State", and "Aftermath", as those sections provide more background and detail than is found in the "College Football Playoff bowl games" section of 2023–24 NCAA football bowl games. Overall, I really don't see a need for this type of article for any of the four-team CFP playoffs, but that may be "the wrong measure for including or excluding an article or topic" (per WP:NEED). That said, I do believe that mis-placed content (albeit well written and well sourced) is an issue with this article and should be addressed. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Instructions page[edit]

Hello everybody, I'd like to suggest creating a page to follow instructions on how to make a good article. I was thinking just like we do in the NFL with: "Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League/Player pages format".

Why should we have a page like this? If college football players generally move on to the NFL. Well, I personally think it'd be a good idea to have a guide to follow; since I was editing DJ Uiagalelei's page and I noticed that highlights from High School are included in his Infobox. In the Template:Infobox NFL biography, no type of this highlight is included; so I thought about removing it, but I didn't know if that is allowed here. In addition to the fact that it'd help us a lot when organizing an infobox (personally I love editing 'em), for example first the national championships are shown, then the Nationwide awards (Heisman, Doak Walker, John Mackey, etc.), then the All-American Teams , and so more.

If I don't receive a response, I'll feel free of creating such a page, and I will always be open to any changes after an agreement. THX =) Sergio Skol (talk) 17:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or just update Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League/Player pages format, so its easily referenced for most of these that will become NFL players. —Bagumba (talk) 12:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:National Signing Day#Requested move 28 March 2024[edit]

This RM to lowercase the titling of National Signing Day may be of interest to participants of this WikiProject. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:48, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Major college football conferences and teams in pre-divisional era[edit]

In recent months, Ben76266 made a series of edits to national college football season articles (e.g. 1955 college football season) reorganizing the conference standings templates and adding a designation reading "For this article, major conferences defined as those including at least one state flagship public university and the Ivy League." This has had the effect of demoting the Missouri Valley Conference to minor status and promoting the North Central Conference and Yankee Conference to major status. I believe this contravenes how the teams in these conferences were actually designated. I recall seeing an NCAA document a while back that lists which teams had "major" status from the 1930s until the beginning of NCAA divisions in the late 1950s. Does anyone know where I can find that document?

On a related note, I've been reorganizing 1949 college football season as I've been creating a number of 1949 team season articles to combat the Template:Cfb link call crisis there. In particular, see the "Minor conference summaries" section, which I've cleaned up and expanded from the long-standing version of the table. I plan to create a similar table for the major conferences. Let me know if you have any thoughts. Jweiss11 (talk) Jweiss11 (talk) 18:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have made the edits mentioned. The status of "major" and "minor" conferences in these pre-divisional annual articles seemed very arbitrary, and so I was trying to come up with a metric that could be used to define the conferences. I welcome any and all conversation on this topic, even if it leads to my changes being reversed or altered. I would also like to see the NCAA document mentioned if it exists. Ben76266 (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even in the years before the NCAA College Division was formed for football c. 1959, the NCAA statitistics bureau (?) drew a distinction for statistical purposes between "major" or "minor" programs. That division has some level of official sanction to it. Cbl62 (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Templates for deletion[edit]

A large number of college football navboxes templates have been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 March 26. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 20:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone in a article-creating mood?[edit]

Hi, for anyone who is feeling an urge to create new articles for this project and for NFL football, there are a ton of requested articles at Wikipedia:Requested articles/Sports/American football for a variety of subjects, from players and coaches to rivalries and terminology. Some of these have been lingering around for awhile with no action. Feel free to be bold, help create some new articles and expand Wikipedia's coverage of American football! Fretyr (talk) 16:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Junior college national champions[edit]

Junior college (Juco) football teams almost never receive the SIGCOV needed to pass muster under WP:GNG. Juco national champions appear to be an exception where sufficient SIGCOV can sometimes be found. We now have a template of Juco national champions in case anyone is interested in doing work in this area:

Cbl62 (talk) 03:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kadyn Proctor (and future players doing the same shit)[edit]

Hi everyone. As perhaps you know, the MF Kadyn Proctor just re-entered to the transfer portal and returned to Alabama. He was officially enrolled with the Hawkeyes, but... should we add Iowa to his Infobox? I mean, this isn't like the NFL, where players can be members of teams only in the preseason, in CFB there's no preseason.

I think is better not show it in the Infobox, it'd be weird if it is displayed:

  • Alabama (2023, 2024–present)
  • Iowa (2024)

Or

  • Alabama (2023)
  • Iowa (2024)
  • Alabama (2024–present)

Perhaps it's only me, but I prefer just show:

  • Alabama (2023–present)

It is more clear, specially because he does not even play a snap with Iowa (just went to make more money, but that ain't the matter).

Additionally, the transfer portal is out of control, too many players are transferring multiple times in the same offseason. What's the next? (e.g.)

  • Ohio State (2024)
  • Texas (2024)
  • USC (2024)
  • LSU (2024)

IMO, if they don't play a game with any team, it shouldn't be displayed in the Infobox. Sergio Skol (talk) 18:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say if they aren't on the team for any games/any part of a season, it shouldn't be listed in the infobox. glman (talk) 18:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Marcus Dupree is listed as going to Oklahoma and not his later transfered school (USM).-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All-Americans: missing articles[edit]

As part of my series on developing redlink lists for likely notable football players (see 1 2 3 4 5 6), I wondered how many selections to the College Football All-America Team are missing articles. It seems only 1889-1895, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020 are complete. In case anyone wants to work on any, here's what I've got, based on each All-America article (will periodically update over the next few days). Note that I'm only including first-team selections as those are most likely to be notable; I'm also bolding any who were mutltiple-year first-team choices, and italicizing those who were first-team choices by multiple selectors:

Pre-1900
1900s
1910s

BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many of those listed are persons named to Outing magazine's annual "Roll of Honor". That's not the same as being a first-team All-American. Indeed, Outing selected multiple players at each position without any first-, second-, third-, or fourth-team etc. designations. Cbl62 (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oregon Webfoots vs. Oregon Ducks[edit]

Team articles from 1940 Oregon Ducks football team to 1977 Oregon Ducks football team have just been changed from "Webfoots" to "Ducks" by @User:Carrite.

I'm not sure what the correct team name is for each year, but would like to see some discussion and sources on the move.

PK-WIKI (talk) 17:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrally as a point of reference; the program's media guide from 1976 uses only "Ducks" when referring to the team (here, see for example the Outlook article on page 3). Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1956 NCAA College Division football season[edit]

This article starts with the statement: "The 1956 NCAA College Division football season saw the NCAA split member schools into two divisions" (a reference to NCAA University Division and NCAA College Division). Is that really true? While the University vs. College split clearly existed in basketball, yielding two tournaments in the spring of 1957, I'm not seeing anything in contemporary newspaper articles that indicates the NCAA "split member schools" in football for the 1956 fall season. NCAA football records (here) make only passing references to College Division, such as "For what was then known as College Division teams" in speaking of the pre-Division II era (here, page 63). Clearly, there was a distinction between major-college and small-college programs, but I'm not seeing sourcing that indicates an "NCAA College Division" (especially as a proper name) existed for the 1956 college football season. Input welcome, especially from editors who may be familiar with this era. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've raised this before. There was no football "College Division" in 1956 or, if I recall correctly, 1957 either. These articles really should be deleted. Cbl62 (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "College Division" concept was originally created, as I recall, as a mechanism to divide the NCAA basketball tournament between higher and lower level programs. The concept did not expand to football until at least a couple years later. Cbl62 (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prior discussion at User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2020#University/College Division season articles. We dropped the ball in fixing the error back then, but we should do so now. I continue to believe that the 1956 and 1957 "College Division" articles should be merged back into the general 1956 and 1957 general college football season articles. Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Starting with UPI for the 1958 season, and joined by AP beginning with the 1960 season, there were "small college" polls (as documented in 1958 small college football rankings, and later). But I do not see that the NCAA recognized "Small College" as an official designation or that it existed as a proper name (in a football context), in the way that Division II and Division III did from 1973 onward. I'd be happy to help with any cleanup efforts; guidance / direction welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's been about four years since the prior discussion, but I thought it was arguable starting at some point that there was an NCAA "College Division" through the 1960s. But what I recall being very clear is that there was no such thing as 1956 NCAA College Division football season or 1957 NCAA College Division football season. At a minimum, those two should be deleted and/or redirected. Cbl62 (talk) 22:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An even earlier discussion on the matter in 2009 found sourcing (e.g., this, this, this, this) for separate "University" and "College Divisions" from 1962 forward. See early discussion here: User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2019#College Division. Thus, it is pre-1962 "College Division" articles that are most problematic and appear to be consist of WP:OR. Cbl62 (talk) 22:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks—these are helpful, but do not indicate if or when a College Division in football was formally created by the NCAA, leaving us with the distinct possibility it was a term of convenience for media and statistics. Within those cited sources: this source from 1963 uses "college division" in the lower case and speaks of the "so-called university division" (if it formally existed, it wouldn't be "so-called"); this source from 1966 speaks only of a university division in basketball and states that "major" football programs are designated by the Football Writers Association of America; and this source from 1969 makes an extremely dubious statement that college and university divisions were created "33 years ago", which would be 1936. More review is needed, which I'll try to do over the next few days.... Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reference to "33 years ago" is to the time period in the 1930s when the NCAA Service Bureau began issuing separate statistics for "major college" and "small college" programs. This small/major distinction had the official imprimatur of the NCAA. The Service Bureau continued to publish these separate "major" and "small" college stats for decades. Cbl62 (talk) 06:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that helps. It seems the writer of the 1969 article (this one) confused the longer-standing statistical differentiation with the more-recent divisions. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 1960 NCAA records book contains separate sections for "Major-College Statistics" (page 63) and "Small-College Statistics" (page 71). The Small-College review of the 1959 season by Danny Hill of the National Collegiate Athletic Bureau opens with the explainer:
Approximately 110 college football teams, which play most of their games against each other, are classified as "major-college" teams. They represent the field of so-called "big time" college football as judged by class of competition rather than seasonal strength. The football teams of all other four-year colleges and universities compromise the "small-college" field. An official list is issued annually by the Football Writers' Association of America, the official classifying authority.
I unfortunately don't have any of the records books from the 1950s to check, maybe another editor here does.
PK-WIKI (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "small college" vs "major college" distinction is something different from the "University Division" and "College Division". The major/small college distinction dates back to, I think, the late 1930s with the NCAA keeping separate statistics for small college and major college players. Cbl62 (talk) 23:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, in that case the 1961 NCAA book continues the "Major & Small" statistics sections, and has a single "1961 NCAA-Member Schedules" section. I don't have a copy of the 1962 book. The 1963 book still has Major & Small statistics, but then "1963 University Division Schedules and Records" and "1963 College Division Schedules and Records". The next book I have is 1966, which now has "Major College Statistics" and "College Division Statistics", then separate University & College Schedules and Records sections. PK-WIKI (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral question — were those books published by the NCAA, or by another entity about NCAA football? Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Published by the NCAA; the "Official Collegiate Football Record Book". Here is the 1963 guide cover and publisher page but without all of the content. I uploaded the covers and national championship pages from many of these books to the table at College football national championships. PK-WIKI (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dmoore5556 and Cbl62, thanks for bringing this up. This has been in the back of my mind to return to for a while. I think what you are proposing is that we merge 1956 NCAA College Division football season and 1956 NCAA University Division football season into one article and the like for 1957, at least. What do we do with 1956 NAIA football season? Leave it alone? If so, is the target of the merge 1956 NCAA football season? Or do we merge all three articles into 1956 college football season? The latter merge of all three articles into one will induce a cfb link call crisis. We still have such crises on many season articles from late 1920s thru 1955. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I am more comfortable with renaming 1956 NCAA College Division football season as 1956 small college football season, and continuing such naming through whatever seasons are not well-sourced as having been conducted under College Division naming. (I prefer how Template:NCAA football rankings navbox names seasons.) I have more digging to do, but it unclear that College Division was ever formally defined by the NCAA, other than basketball. If may be justified via WP:COMMONNAME, but certainly not for the 1956 and 1957 seasons. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dmoore5556, note that articles like 1958 small college football rankings reflect the most common naming of these rankings, and that these rankings included both NCAA (College Division) and NAIA teams. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. When instituted in 1958 (source), the small-college rankings covered the 519 institutions not designated as "major" by the Football Writers Association of America (there were 109 such "major" programs). If we were creating 1958 college football articles from scratch, 1958 major college football season and 1958 small college football season would seem to be appropriate (the source notes that with regards to NCAA and NAIA membership, some teams belonged to just one, some teams belonged to both, and some teams belonged to neither). Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • By 1962, it appears that the "University Division"/"College Division" was a real thing recognized as such by the NCAA. In this 1962 piece, no less an authority than NCAA executive director Walter Byers refers to "our University and College divisions" and notes that there are 140 schools playing football in the University Division and 370 programs competing in the college division. Cbl62 (talk) 06:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; I've seen that quote, but corroboration is lacking. That is the only newspaper article containing such a statement by Byers—searching newspapers.com for 1962 articles containing "university division" "college division" and "Walter Byers" yields only six hits, and none of the other five corroborate what Tommy Devine of the Miami News wrote. It is implausible that such a structure existed for NCAA football in 1962, yet only one columnist from one newspaper wrote about it. Perhaps there are other articles, using different wording, but I've not been able to find them, at least so far.
The most authoritative sourcing I've been able to find, so far, is this document from the NCAA, a 2012 summary of Division II. On page 3, there are the "Regional Championship Results", with a section lead stating "Before 1973, there was no Division II Football Championship. Instead, four regional bowl games were played in order to provide postseason action for what then were called NCAA College Division member institutions. Following are the results of those bowl games:" This document and contemporary accounts of the noted bowl games—of which there are various newspaper articles referring to, for example, the Tangerine Bowl as the "NCAA College Division Atlantic Coast playoff game" (source)—give us solid ground for the 1964 season through the creation of Division II / Division III. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That strikes me as further corroborating that the "College Division" was a real thing, at least in the 1960s. No? Cbl62 (talk) 00:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1964 and later, yes. Before 1964 remains murky. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After a bunch of additions review, I've found there was an NCAA College Division Football Committee; it first shows up in January 1964 (example) and mentions of it can be found in newspapers into 1973 (example) with only a few stray mentions later. This article in August 1963 stated "The college division football program, still subject to ratification at the January 1964 NCAA convention, provides for regional championship games beginning 1964." I will start a new topic with a suggestion, as this discussion is now several layers deep. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice to see some sort of official NCAA documentation and/or definitive encyclopedic work from the era. I've been building a list of archived official college football guides here: Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Archived yearbooks. The 1971 issue explicitly refers to College and University Divisions. I haven't found any such guides from the sensitive time period (1956–1964-ish). The NCAA website also has a lot of team summary reports from the years in question, e.g. https://stats.ncaa.org/team/108/stats/13015 (1963 UC Davis Aggies football team). While that archived report has a file name that refers the "College Division", the 1963 document itself does not make such a reference. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's worth considering: what makes a "season", to that point that independent articles are warranted? Clearly today there are, for example, independent rankings, playoffs, and even administrative rules (e.g. number of athletic scholarships) that are specific to the various NCAA football levels from Division III through Division I FBS. Something akin to that existed from 1964 onward, with the start of the College Division regional finals and a governing entity (NCAA College Division Football Committee). Prior to 1964, there's a general entity known as "college football", which did not conduct or administer "seasons" at different levels—who was considered "major" seems to have been based on the opinion of the FWAA, there were conferences with a mix of major and non-major teams, and the various teams that competed belonged the NCAA and/or NAIA (sometimes one, sometimes both, sometimes neither). The closest thing to delineate different levels are the "small college" polls of UPI (starting in 1958) and the AP (starting in 1960) and the statistical delineation of major and small-college by the NCAA Service Bureau dating back to, apparently, the late 1930s. But I question whether that's an indication that different "seasons" of competition were taking place, vs. wire services and the NCAA statisicians felt it made sense to look at Notre Dame, Michigan, and Oklahoma differently than Small State College as a matter of convenience or other factors. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

College Division / University Division[edit]

From the above discussion... a suggestion:

  • Retain existing "19xx NCAA College Division football season" articles for 1964 through 1972, as the College Division regional finals and the NCAA College Division Football Committee demonstrably existed during those seasons, AND
  • For the 1956 to 1963 articles structured as College/University/NAIA, either:

Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • My thoughts are still forming as we dig into the issue, but here are my takes so far:
1) Agree that the "19xx College Division football season" articles from 1956 to at least 1961 are based on original and/or flawed research and need to be changed.
2) Agree that the "19xx College Division football season" articles from 1964 forward be left as is. I would go further and extend this back to 1962 when we have this quote from NCAA executive director Walter Byers referring to "our University and College divisions" and giving a specific breakdown that there were at that time 140 schools playing football in the University Division and 370 programs competing in the college division. To my mind, this is clear evidence that the "University/College Division" split had occurred by 1962.
3) For the earlier years, I was initially inclined to split them (and probably support the split) into separate "major" and "small" college articles. However, as we've begun to dig in, second thoughts have developed due to
(a) ambiguity and uncertainty as to which programs were considered "major" vs "small" (there were inconsistencies in how some teams were classified),
(b) uncertainty as to which designators of "major" status we should report. So far, we have multiple and sometimes inconsitent designations by (i) FWAA (unfortunately, we don't yet have its annual lists of the schools it designated as "major"), (ii) the NCAA Service Bureau which divided its annual statistical reports between schools designated as "major" and "small", (iii) AP Newsfeatures' pre-season publication of "major college" football schedules,
(c) the split creates an issue as to how we should treat certain conferences. For example, in 1948, only two of five MVC schools (3/9 Border, 4/6 Skyline, 12/16 SoCon) were considered "major". Cbl62 (talk) 09:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl62 good insight, thanks. The 1962 Byers quote is still problematic, as a) the Miami News column in question is the only known instance where a writer attributed such a statement to Byers, and b) 140 is an overly high number of programs to consider "major", as other sources (such as the published schedules, example) put the number in the 120s. I would like to see some corroborating source(s), lest this simply be a case of one columnist's notes being off. I will dig some more, as time permits. Dmoore5556 (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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