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Ratified jumps discussion

As per this discussion, this discussion is about how figure skating articles and lists records the first skater to execute a jump. Currently, the ISU ratifies and lists, in their own publications, only jumps executed in international competitions and the Wikipedia editors who work on and create figure skating articles and lists have always followed this convention. Currently and by consensus, it is the policy of Wikiproject Figure Skating to also follow it; see our Manual of Style. There has been a proposal to change this convention and policy, to record first skaters to perform the jumps and highest scores of the jumps performed at domestic competitions. Please discuss this proposal below. This discussion will be open for seven days, until 23 September 2023, and if there's a clear consensus to change the convention/policy, we will do so. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:34, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended content

I go with the solution of PavelSI to add domestic achievements in the prose text and as an explanatory footnote, but not in the tables for officially ratified firsts. Domestic competitions are no ISU-sanctioned events, and hence any achievement there does not count for official firsts. Henni147 (talk) 16:50, 16 September 2023 (UTC) Given the propensity of certain federations to make hyperbolic claims, I would only be in favor of listing firsts at domestic competitions if we have reliable secondary sources that corroborate that federation's claim. We need them anyways per WP:BLP.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:52, 16 September 2023 (UTC) What is the role of the ISU media guide (here)? It mentions "first jumps" at domestic competitions twice (on page 17 of the 2022/23 edition): Quad Lutz-triple toe by Jin Boyang and Quad Loop by Adeliia Petrosian. The Quad Lutz-triple toe at the 2015 Cup of China by Jin is also mentioned. I think it would be strange to significantly deviate from the media guide. --Kallichore (talk) 18:04, 16 September 2023 (UTC) I don't propose to, but ISU also is a WP:PRIMARY source. I must ask that we don't rely on ISU solely.--Jasper Deng (talk) 20:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1) Being not-english-man, I do not understand some words. For example "ratifies". For example let's see Axel Paulsen and his axel jump. Is it "ratified"? It is a fact he make his jump at non-competitive conditions at all. The ISU media guide describe the situation as a simple fact: time, place, situation. No word "ratify". I see it is a good practice to provide info in this way. I see term "ratified" in WIKI only. 1.1) Currently I see WIKI ratify (ratified by WIKI editors). This as a precedent making a roole: if we accept Axel then let's accept Petrosian. 1.2) As I see, both Axel and Petrosian have secondary proofs (the ISU media guide). 2) My proposal is to be softer and more flexible anyway, not black-white. Let's explain the situation to the reader instead of making editor decisions to ratify or not. For example, in case if some event is outside of the ISU view, but the event is meaningful in terms of some article, then we should reflect this situation as-is making good annotation. 3) Let's keep one good old roole. In case when one respectable expert's behaviour depend on the political issues, then WIKI should describe the situation as-is using more experts then this one. Our priority is to provide information to the reader, so we need to use good enough sources to cover comprehensive set of points of view. If to apply the roole to the ISU, I mean the ISU is the expert. It is old, wide known and not bad, but the situation is so that we should use more sources. The fact I see: the ISU do not observe the global situation during the last year. All the oficial ISU world-records at woman-singles are of a federation been banned by the same ISU. "Quad revolution" in woman-single-FS is going on aside the ISU. We should describe the situation as-is anyway. PavelSI (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC) Ratified, meaning certified. This means an ISU technical panel has agreed that that attempt meets the criteria of that element and has notated it accordingly. This distinguishes an overrotated 3A from an underrotated 4A. I agree with that, but I again must insist that we use WP:SECONDARY sources that are reliable (ideally international media) WP:DAW. The governing policy here is WP:NPOV and specifically WP:DUE. Russia being banned does not mean their skaters cannot be written on based on reliable sources.--Jasper Deng (talk) 20:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC) @Jasper Deng: There seem to be contradicting definitions of the terms "certified" and "ratified". Some sources state that they mean the same thing, others claim that there is a difference between the two. According to various international media outlets, Hanyu's 4A attempt at the 2022 Winter Olympics counted as the first "certified" quad Axel in intl. competition because it was the first one that was not downgraded to a 3A (4A<<). However, because it was a fall and not fully rotated (4A<), it was not "ratified" as a successful attempt. The first officially ratified 4A was Ilia Malinin's attempt in September 2022. If it is of relevance, I can look up all sources for that issue. Henni147 (talk) 06:43, 17 September 2023 (UTC) @Henni147: We should not behold ourselves to the mistakes third-party media makes. I would also use "fully rotated" instead to make the distinction between Hanyu and Malinin's attempts.--Jasper Deng (talk) 06:45, 17 September 2023 (UTC) As I see your 1 and 3 issues are in a conflict. in (1) you write a phrase: ...means an ISU technical panel... and here you place the ISU as the only power to give a good certificate. (3) while in the words: ...being banned does not mean their skaters cannot... you are more tolerant to russians. PavelSI (talk) 11:00, 18 September 2023 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan Just to make things confusing, the first 4Lz by Brandon Mroz, is actually in a USFS sanctioned invitational event, not an ISU one. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/news/news-fsk/10150-the-first-reportedly-recognized-quadruple-lutz-jump?highlight=WyJicmFuZG9uIiwiYnJhbmRvbidzIiwibXJveiIsIm1yb3oncyIsImJyYW5kb24gbXJveiJd&templateParam=15 I do not believe the ISU has crystal-clear standards on this, however, one must follow the ISU's own timeline. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC) According to reliable primary (Media Guide) and secondary (RT, eng, TASS, rus) sources, an anthlete should perform a new element in international competition to be counted as its first executor — that's the current policy. So if an athele A does an element domestically and athele B does it internationally some time later then B will be the first executor. However the domestic execution is also a good step and worth to be mentioned, and it does — for example, you can see it in Guide at 4Lz for both men and women. So, to follow the sources, my suggestion is to keep the table cell empty and create a footnote with the respective reference in case if there are no any "official" execution but "unofficial" exists. Antko (talk) 12:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC) Everyone, remember that we're talking about scores tables such as "Detailed results" and "Firsts". There are no policies that state that a skater's domestic scores or first-time jumps can't be mentioned in other articles and bios. I feel like much of the discussion thus far is obscuring that and going off-topic. It's been the policy of WikiProject Figure Skating to only include first jumps and scores that the ISU approves. Yes, these are primary sources, but they're reliable because the ISU is the international governing body of figure skating. Other articles and bios about other sports also use their governing body's recorded scores and athletes' and teams' accomplishments. (I believe that's what JasperDeng is talking about.) PavelSI keeps accusing those of us who support the long practice of how scores and firsts are recorded on WP of having political agendas, but that's simply not true; the policy predates the Russian athletes' ban in international competition by decades. Therefore, even though I began the discussion, I vote to OPPOSE the proposal as I've stated it in the first paragraph of this section. In other words, I support retaining the current policy of WikiProject Figure Skating. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:01, 18 September 2023 (UTC) OPPOSE Editor120918756 (talk) 22:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC) OPPOSE to proposal or to Christine? PavelSI (talk) 18:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC) I OPPOSE your proposal and agree with Christine. Editor120918756 (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC) I have asked you multiply. Should we apply your roole "So if an athele A does an element domestically and athele B does it internationally some time later then B will be the first executor" to Axel Paulsen? I see wikipedia is not consistent and it is not good. I think we should avoid double standards. If no Petrosian, no Paulsen. PavelSI (talk) 18:22, 19 September 2023 (UTC) @PavelSI This is a completely ridiculous equivalence. The INVENTOR of a jump is not the same as the "first person to do the quad version of jump in competition". If you want, you go find who invented the quad version of the jump, I bet it's not even been documented who landed the first ever 4T in the world. Either way, it doesn't matter. ISU has its own standards. You might not agree with them, but your disagreement is irrelevant when it comes to the actual institute. If they ever change those standards, you come yell at us on wikipedia. Editor120918756 (talk) 18:46, 19 September 2023 (UTC) 1) If so, should we remove the inventor out off the table of firsts? 2) I do not make a dialogs to the ISU. Wikipedia only. PavelSI (talk) 20:05, 19 September 2023 (UTC) 3) The same question on Rittberger - is he an inventor or the 1st? Media guide declare him as an inventor as a legend. PavelSI (talk) 20:09, 19 September 2023 (UTC) If the media guide declares him as the inventor then he's the inventor. Editor120918756 (talk) 20:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC) If.Read media guide please. It is believed that the jump was created by Werner Rittberger. Is 'Belived' enough for our double standard world? PavelSI (talk) 19:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC) I yell double standards while the table of "firsts" is a collection of legends, fuzzy words or out-of-competition achievements, but editors are strict in case of one Petrosian. Media guide is good and accurate. Interpretation of the guide is not, while legends a retranslated as a fact, and domestic facts as none. PavelSI (talk) 20:01, 23 September 2023 (UTC) @PavelSIThey aren't "strict in the case of Petrosian", they are "strict" in the case of everyone when it comes to this. Rules apply equally to everyone. Editor120918756 (talk) 15:25, 24 September 2023 (UTC) We go round-robin. I say: if to be strikt, we should remove Axel out of the table 'firsts'. It does not matter is he an inventor of a jump or not. In this discussion we discuss firsts, not inventors. And the achievement to be '1st to make it OUT OF COMPETITION' not let him to be 'simply 1st'. Similar point on Werner Rittberger. And if to read the media guide accurately, may be some other persons alike Brandon Mroz. PavelSI (talk) 22:23, 24 September 2023 (UTC) Btw, Mroz is not an object of current discussion as he's the first who did 4Lz internationally (Bio). For Axel I guess there's no more information, however the sources attributes the first execution to him directly ([1], [2]) without additional notes. But for clarity it'd be good to have a footnote it was out of competition. For Rittberger, maybe will check later. I am smiling (talk) 06:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC) @I am smiling: Including out-of-competition attempts presents much too big of a verifiability and neutrality problem, due to the somewhat sparse media coverage of the sport and resulting coverage bias, bias of the skater and their coaches, and lack of certifying authority. In this sport, it's not too uncommon to claim to have done an element for ego boosting or other self-serving purposes and even with video footage it is often impossible to verify independently (they can be easily doctored to add rotations to jumps or spins, for example). If someone is credited with inventing an established element, then WP:SECONDARY sources should be widespread and unanimous in saying so.--Jasper Deng (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2023 (UTC) 1) washingtonpost.com is simply not accurate. I can find a lot of similar not-accurate sources for each case. 2) "But for clarity it'd be good to have a footnote it was out of competition". The problem is so: we have rools. But some persons-out-of rools editors love. In this case editors break rools and use a small footnotes (which is often removed or missed later). For persons they dislike, editors exclude name at all being very strict and bureaucratic. I say 'double standard'. PavelSI (talk) 17:24, 25 September 2023 (UTC) @I am smiling: Btw, Mroz is not an object of current discussion as he's the first who did 4Lz internationally (Bio). As I said below, Mroz was recognized by the ISU before he performed the 4Lz at an ISU event, and they list that non-ISU performance along with the ISU one, exactly the same way they treat the women's quad Lutz. I don't go as far as PavelSI in claiming that the ISU is guilty of a double-standard, since they DO, in fact, list Shcherbakova and Petrosian in their respective "first" categories. They distinguish them by noting that their performances were in "domestic competitions." Why should we make these performances more obscure than the ISU does by relegating them to a footnote? ISU makes the rules. Why depart from their example? Swood100 (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2023 (UTC) @PavelSI That's not my rule, that's figure skating rule. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a figure skating regulator. It should be based on sources, not on users' originals "if — then". Sources (you can see it above) say Paulsen and Rittberger are the firsts who did their jumps; they also say Petrosian's 4Lo is not counted as first without international execution. That does not mean double standards, just rules modification over time. I am smiling (talk) 06:08, 20 September 2023 (UTC) What sources do you want? I read sources as much as wikipedia provide it. ISU media guide, pages 16-17: The first single Axel ever to be performed was by Paulsen in 1882 in Vienna (outside of competition). You think addition (outside of competition) is not relevant? Read more. "Firsts ... Women – Adeliia Petrosian (RUS) at the 2022 Russian National Championships (domestic competition)". Each one is mentioned as the 1st with annotation. If you a strict in one case, you should to act in the same way in another one. PavelSI (talk) 17:40, 20 September 2023 (UTC) "This discussion will be open for seven days, until 23 September 2023" @FigureskatingfanSo this is closed now, isn't it? Editor120918756 (talk) 10:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

This discussion starts out this way:

Currently, the ISU ratifies and lists, in their own publications, only jumps executed in international competitions and the Wikipedia editors who work on and create figure skating articles and lists have always followed this convention.

I notice that the ISU, in its publication, on page 17, lists Anna Shcherbakova for the first quad Lutz and Adeliia Petrosian for the first quad Loop, and notes that these were domestic competitions. It also lists the first woman to do it in international competition. Is this what “non-ratification” means? If so, it seems to be closer to full recognition than it is to non-recognition. If we followed their example, we would add an extra line to each category and display these additional names, with parenthetical explanation just like the ISU does. Could someone concisely give me the argument against reporting this information the same way that the ISU does?

Also, if Alois Lutz did not perform the first Lutz (or any Lutz) in international competition but yet we are listing him as first, without any parenthetical explanation, what is the concise argument in favor of doing that for him but not for Petrosian and Shcherbakova? Swood100 (talk) 19:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

As things stand now, I SUPPORT reporting this information the same way that the ISU does. Swood100 (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Media guide lists domestic executions as well but it still does not mean the recognition. You can compare the bios of atheletes with recognized first executions (Uno, Malinin, Trusova) and without them (Petrosian, Scherbakova). But you're right they're listed in Guide with a notice there were domestic competition. Because of this I'm OPPOSE to change the established practice and mention domestic executions direcly in the "Firsts" table but NEUTRAL to put them into a comments section if there will be a consensus to do so.

Regarding Lutz and Paulsen, the situation is different. According to the sources, it is believed they were the firsts, there's no more exact info and I do not see any reliable sources which dispute these statements. I am smiling (talk) 08:25, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Media guide lists domestic executions as well but it still does not mean the recognition.

Do you mean that if we list these people the same way the ISU does, we're providing a recognition that the ISU is not providing? I can't discern your concise argument against reporting this information exactly the same way that the ISU does. Our article serves the same purpose as their media guide, which is to be an easy way for non-experts to get basic information.

Regarding Lutz and Paulsen, the situation is different. According to the sources, it is believed they were the firsts, there's no more exact info and I do not see any reliable sources which dispute these statements.

The ISU Media Guide lists the quad Lutz of Brandon Mroz at the 2011 Colorado Springs Invitational, which is not an ISU event. So, their policy allows the listing of things that happen at some non-ISU events. In their comment on this quad Lutz they emphasized that they had been able to validate it through YouTube. This implies that the reason for the stated policy is that by default they have no confidence in the officials running non-ISU events. This may be why they list the Shcherbakova Lutz and the Petrosian Loop—because they can be viewed on YouTube and were obviously legitimate even though they were done at non-ISU events. This is all speculation as to the ISU's true policy. Suppose we listed it this way:

 Anna Shcherbakova (domestic event)
 Alexandra Trusova (ISU event)

This is the way the ISU lists it. This supplies all relevant information. What's the problem with it? Swood100 (talk) 14:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Modified appearance of example given above. Swood100 (talk) 16:35, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Added a footnote to the example. How about this approach? I could have added to the note that the ISU is inconsistent in this policy since it DID ratify the quad Lutz of Brandon Mroz that also was not performed at an ISU tournament. In that case they recognized it as the first quad Lutz performed in a "sanctioned competition." In that case the sanctioning body was U.S. Figure Skating. In the case of Shcherbakova, the sanctioning body was Figure Skating Federation of Russia. The criteria for the differential recognition, if any, are unstated. Swood100 (talk) 17:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

As I mention a bit above, Mroz did the first 4Lz on international event (ISU, Reuters) so it shouldn't be any doubts with him. For women's 4Lz, situation is similar, also the sources calls Trusova exactly the first executor of this element (ISU, Guardian, Guinness, Olympics). For clarity, in case when domestic execution preceeds international one and both are done by different persons, I guess it'd good to have a footnote with domestic execution mentioned if there are any WP:SECONDARY for this. I am smiling (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

As I mention a bit above, Mroz did the first 4Lz on international event (ISU, Reuters) so it shouldn't be any doubts with him.

The ISU says this in their bio for Mroz:

Mroz became the first skater to perform a quadruple Lutz in competition on September 16, 2011 during his Free Skating at the Colorado Springs Invitational, a U.S. Figure Skating sanctioned event. He became also the first man to land a quadruple Lutz in ISU competition at the ISU Grand Prix event NHK Trophy in November 2011.

It’s also worth noting that on 26 October they recognized his September quad Lutz:

The ISU was informed and based on footage placed on Youtube was able to confirm that Brandon Mroz’s (USA) performed a quadruple Lutz on September 16, 2011 during the Colorado Springs Invitational, a U.S. Figure Skating sanctioned Event. This is reportedly the first quadruble Lutz performed in any sanctioned competition.

Thus they recognized his quad Lutz before he performed it in international competition. Furthermore, they continue to report both events: the first one in a sanctioned competition and the first one in international competition. It’s the same with the women’s quad Lutz, which they list in the Media Guide under the heading “Firsts” this way:

Women - Anna Shcherbakova (RUS) at a domestic event in October 2018 and Alexandra Trusova (RUS) at the ISU Junior Grand Prix Armenia Cup in October 2018.

I will grant you that the ISU lists this material inconsistently. As you point out, in Trusova’s bio they do not mention Shcherbakova with respect to the quad Lutz. But they mention her in the Media Guide because her quad was performed 6 October 2018 at the 2nd stage of the 2019 Russian Cup, while Trusova performed hers at the Junior Grand Prix in Armenia, which took place October 10 to 13, 2018.

So if the ISU lists Mroz, Shcherbakova and Petrosian in their Media Guide, a publication intended to disseminate information as widely as possible, and they do so by listing them in the body of the publication and not as a footnote, then why shouldn’t Wikipedia do likewise? Put another way, what is the reason for departing from the example the ISU sets in their Media Guide? Swood100 (talk) 16:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Footnotes

References

Summary of all latest changes on skater biographies – Oct 12, 2023

The template documentation has been updated with the latest standards now. The previous summary and last discussion have been moved to the archives.

Infobox

Example
Full name	Full name
Native name	Native name
Other names	Name 1, Name 2, ...
Born	Date Place
Died	Date Place
Hometown	Hometown
Height	1.72 m (5 ft 8 in)
Figure skating career
Country	Canada France (2008–2010)
Discipline	Ice dance Men's singles (2008–2010)
Partner	Current partner Partner 2 (2012–2016) Partner 1 (2010–2012)
Coach	Current coach or team
Skating club	Current club, location
Began skating	2004
Competitive	2008–2018
Professional	2019–2023
Retired	August 5, 2023
Highest WS	2nd (2014–2016)
Medal record
Event Olympic Games 0 0 0 Olympic Games – Team event 0 0 0 World Championships 0 0 0 Four Continents Championships 0 0 0 Grand Prix Final 0 0 0 Winter Youth Olympics 0 0 0 World Junior Championships 0 0 0 Junior Grand Prix Final 0 0 0 Medal list Olympic Games {{FS medal}} World Championships {{FS medal}} European Championships {{FS medal}} Four Continents Championships {{FS medal}} Grand Prix Final {{FS medal}} Winter Youth Olympics {{FS medal}} World Junior Championships {{FS medal}} Junior Grand Prix Final {{FS medal}}

New parameters

• discipline: select between Men's singles, Women's singles, Pair skating, and Ice dance. If a skater has changed disciplines, they get listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• years_competitive: period using the format 2010–2018 or 2010–present with an en dash (not a hyphen).
• years_professional: period using the format 2010–2018 or 2010–present.
• highest_WS: highest career world standing, using the format 1st (2018–2019).
• medalrecord: to be combined with new medal template {{Figure skating infobox medals}}.

Important content changes

• hometown: should only be included if different from birthplace.
• coach: the CURRENT coach or team gets listed for ACTIVE skaters only.
• skating club: the CURRENT main skating club gets listed for ACTIVE skaters only, using the format "skating club, location".
• retired: only to be used for skaters who retired from skating ALTOGETHER, both competitive AND professional level, naming the year or official announcement date (e.g. "June 25, 2023" for Johnny Weir).
• In the infobox, only the personal bests of ONE judging system should be listed, namely the one with the career best (total) score. The rest should be listed in the detailed results section, using the template {{Figure skating personal bests}}.

Obsolete parameters that will no longer be displayed

• residence: If the residence of a skater is notably different from the birth place or hometown, that information should be mentioned in the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• spouse: Spouses should be mentioned in the "private life" section, supported by RELIABLE secondary sources (no tabloids).
• formercountry: to be merged into the country parameter, listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• formerpartner: to be merged into the partner parameter, listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• formercoach: to be moved to the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• (former)choreographer: to be added to program list, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• traininglocations: to be merged into the skating club parameter, using the format "skating club, location".
• former skating club + formertraininglocations: to be moved to the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• Full world standing and season's best lists are no longer included on a skater's biography page at all. The template {{Figure skating WS and SB}} has become obsolete as well.
• ISU personal bests are no longer included in the infobox. They should be added in the detailed results section instead, using the new template {{Figure skating personal bests}}.

New templates for skater biographies

• Infobox medals: use the new template {{Figure skating infobox medals}} and module {{FS medal}}.
• Programs: use the new template {{Figure skating program list}} and module {{FS program}}.
• Competitive highlights: use the new template {{Figure skating competitive highlights}} and module {{FS placements}}.
• Detailed results: use the new templates {{Figure skating personal bests}} and {{Figure skating detailed results}}.

@Bgsu98 and Editor120918756: This is the latest compilation of changes to the infobox with an example. The template documentations have all been updated, too. I have created five new table templates and three new modules in total for the skaters' biography articles (linked above). Now we should be ready to update all 4,200 articles one by one :D Henni147 (talk) 15:57, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Well I went and did it for Yuna as well. Didn't realize how hard it would be to not enter OGg=2... Editor120918756 (talk) 17:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: You are so brave. I feel totally with you. I removed the obsolete parameters from Yuna's infobox and fixed the linking of the world standings. I also removed a bunch of inline citations from the detailed results tables.

Important note for all editors: Please do NOT place inline citations randomly inside the table templates above! They completely mess up the formatting. To add references, always use the |ref= parameter with bundled sources, which is explicitely added for this purpose. Henni147 (talk) 19:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I think including the TES and PCS for both segments on every skater is gross overkill. I have never seen this level of detail outside of the current highest-scoring skater, and it reaches the level of Fancruft. How would I even know what the highest TES and PCS scores are since they are not recorded on the Wikipedia tables. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98 But we already had a vote on it, and it was passed.

The highest TES and PCS scores are recorded in the isuresults pages for each skater, which is where we're fetching those details from. Editor120918756 (talk) 06:13, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for the response. I appreciate all of your assistance. Bgsu98 (Talk) 10:52, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Major RfC on capitalization of all our articles

I thought this was a done deal back in this 2022 RFC but obviously not. A handful of editors did another rfc with no sports projects input at all. And it's being challenged because we just noticed it. This could affect almost every single tennis and Olympic article we have, and goodness know how many other sports. Some may have already been moved it you weren't watching the article. And not just the article titles will be affected but all the player bios that link to the articles. Sure the links would be piped to the right place if thousands of articles moved, but if the wording in a bio still said 2023 Wimbledon Championships – Men's singles or Swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's 200 metre backstroke that would likely need to be changed by hand. There is also talk of removing the ndash completely.

Perhaps this is what sports projects want and perhaps not. Either way I certainly don't want projects ill-informed as the last RfC was handled. Express your thoughts at the following rfc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:01, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Could you explain a bit? Editor120918756 (talk) 06:04, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Since your sport is part of the Olympics and the Olympics are a heavy concern of this RFC, it's why I plopped this here. What has happened is for decades Olympic Figure Skating has had articles at wikipedia under the format Figure skating at the 2022 Winter Olympics – Women's singles. This was decided in 15-20 years ago in a discussion at this talk page. Tennis does the same, as do most Olympic sports. Two years ago the titles were more like "Figure skating at the 2022 Winter Olympics – Women's Singles" (it depended on the sport), it was then decided by an rfc to make it lower case "singles" to "Figure skating at the 2022 Winter Olympics – Women's singles." I wasn't happy about it but it was a fair and square rfc as projects were informed. They also wanted to get rid of upper case "Women's" and the ndash, but failed. A couple weeks ago I noticed that a handful of non-sports editors at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters had done a quick RFC to change titles on 40,000 articles because they still don't like the capitalization or ndash in titles. They agreed to remove all capitals in the first word after the ndash. No sports projects that this could affect were notified at all! Someone complained on my talk page a couple days ago which is when I found out.

I went to the talk page and found they were about to arrange for a bot to change all 40,000 articles with no input from any project. I felt this was wrong as each project should have a voice. Discussions there have mentioned removing the ndash, or even rearranging the title to "Women's singles at the 2022 Winter Olympics." 12 hours ago another editor who must feel like I do, started a new RfC to allow for ndashes and capitalization after that ndash in titles. Hence I made sure that every sports project associated with the Olympics was informed of this new rfc. And here we are. Personally I think readers find it works well as it is and that it's crazy to change things because some don't like capitals or ndashes. But regardless of how you feel about it, I want you to have a say and not just find out about it after the fact like they did with the last rfc. I hope this helps...Cheers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click)Thank you for explaining. I have no strong feelings over this, but maybe others do. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:01, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) I agree with you that the existing format is fine. Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:04, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

List of highest junior scores in figure skating

This page has multiple, multiple, multiple problems. It is overly bloated, it utilizes indiscriminate cutoffs for tables, it lacks explanations that render the tables incomprehensible to the average reader, and so on. Please take a look and offer feedback for possible improvements, and thank you! Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:14, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

A simple response to this question is to model it after List of highest scores in figure skating. And then cut, cut, cut everything else. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:38, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! A lot of this stuff is absolutely unsourced. A link to a scoresheet is not a suitable source when the claim is that an element or a performance is the highest, or whatever. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Latest changes on skater infoboxes

These are the additional things we have agreed upon:

• No Personal Bests in infobox (PBs already included in detailed results)
• Add the medal count table only if the number of medals is minimum 10
• Remove Universiade medals
• Remove YOG team medals
• Remove WTT medals
• Collapse the medal list if medal count table is present, otherwise medal list remains unfurled (for 9 or less medals)
• Add full time period for highest WS
• For the {{MedalGold}}/{{MedalSilver}}/{{MedalBronze}} templates, use the shortened discipline names Singles, Pairs, Ice dance, and Team.

@Henni147 Voting's up, so here's the further summary for infobox changes. Let me know if I've missed anything. I think you can go ahead and do your magic after that haha. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: Thank you very much for compiling the list! Yes, that should be mostly it. I think, the "current_WS" parameter should be removed, too.

I created a new template to make the medal lists in skaters' infoboxes uniform in accordance with the latest decisions that we made here. In this template, we no longer need to link competitions and disciplines manually, which makes the markup code significantly shorter and much easier to handle. The extension/collapsing and calculations in the Total row are done automatically as well. I adjusted the line height a bit, so that the displayed list of medals is somewhat shorter than before. Asian Games and Youth Olympics can be listed, too.

Since we have to revamp all infoboxes anyways, I think it's a good occasion to add this template as well. It will heavily reduce the article size for skaters with many medals. Henni147 (talk) 19:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes remove current_WS! I thought we already had. @Henni147

That looks great to me! Editor120918756 (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

BTW, one more suggestion is that in the medal list, we can remove the mention of "singles" or "team" entirely?

For example, with Uno as you brought up, we are already mentioning he's men's singles earlier. So we don't need to mention he won something as a singles' athlete again. Instead, we can modify "2022 Beijing" for him to "2022 Beijing (Team)" for him once. This makes much more sense to me, because unlike AG, a skater (usually) only ever competes in one discipline, whether in the individuals or team. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:30, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

And I would place the individual event medals over team events in order of importance, but I get that it's chronological currently. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: On Wikipedia, the three-column listing of medals is the common format, and that should be uniform across all sports articles. The main purpose of the discipline column is to link the article about the specific event if it exists like 2018 Winter Olympics – Men's singles. This is currently the case for the Olympics, Youth Olympics, and Asian Games. It is possible that this system will later be adapted for other main intl. competitions as well. So I would keep the layout as it currently is and update the template with new automatic links in the future. Henni147 (talk) 11:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah OK, got you. Thanks. Editor120918756 (talk) 12:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Is there a separate template/table for the current personal best scores, or are we just relying on the boldfaced scores in the detailed season results tables? If so, that does not meet requirements for accessibility. Bgsu98 (Talk) 15:30, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

We have already passed PB tables in a different discussion... Editor120918756 (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Recommendations: Competitive highlights & Detailed results

I have two recommendations to help simplify these two sections on the figure skaters' biographies.

Competitive highlights: Below international competition, I recommend that only national-level competitions be included (no regionals, no sectionals). Aside from the national championships, other national-level competitions can still be included (ie. Skate Canada Challenge, Master's de Patinage, etc.).

Detailed results: I recommend that only Senior and Junior-level events/scores be included. No novice-level events.

Please let me know what you think. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I support both, since it'll lead to shortening of the pages.

In general, I feel there needs to be a guideline for this, because when I read the page of An Xiangyi, I do not in fact feel any the wiser after reading things like "China Figure Skating Club League Finals" or what "Chinese champion competition" is like on Chen Xizi or how it is at all different from the Chinese championships, and don't see the need for these to be mentioned. I am not even getting into the mess that probably exists on Russian skater pages at this point. Editor120918756 (talk) 13:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, I would support only National Winter Games and Chinese Championships to exist on Chinese skater pages. It's going to vary for each country, but for example with South Korea, I don't need the plethora of ranking competitions mentioned (although luckily it doesn't seem to be the case, except for the occasional mention like in Shin Ji-a). So only major national competitions for each country. Editor120918756 (talk) 13:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Additional recommendation: On the Competitive highlights table, I recommend listing nothing below Novice level (or whatever the appropriate equivalent is in each respective country). No juvenile or intermediate competitions/placements. If an editor wishes to include that information in the prose section of an article (ie. "Jack Sprat competed at the juvenile level from 2000 to 2002"), then go for it. Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756 and Bgsu98: I support all suggestions above:

• Remove regionals and sectionals from competitive highlights (only mention them in the prose if they are encyclopedically notable, supported by reliable secondary sources)
• Only add junior and senior results to detailed results tables

Henni147 (talk) 11:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

OK agree with this too. Editor120918756 (talk) 12:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Costume designers

@Henni147 I just did a quick ctrl+F over Hanyu's page, and there seems to be no info about his costumes by Ito. I might have missed it. But in general, should we put information about costuming somewhere? It seems relevant. Also tagging @Figureskatingfan.

(Did see the page mentioned the ISU award nomination for best costume, so again seems very relevant to include costume designing, however briefly. Could just include the relevant tidbits within the season-specific sections, or create a new section altogether, if there's lots of info)

Also, why has nobody yet created an English wikipedia page about Ito? There seems to be a German one. Editor120918756 (talk) 13:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I put Johnny Weir's costume info in the seasons sections, if there were sources that discussed them. I figured that there wasn't enough info to warrant a separate section and if there were, it'd be redundant, anyway. See Johnny Weir#2005–2006 season. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

So with Satomi Ito, who I believe has made costumes for Hanyu, Uno, Higuchi, Kihira, and even for skaters who aren't Japanese like Jin and Vincent Zhou, I think she's written multiple books and has spoken about them in live streams. I'm sure a lot of this info can simply be added to her page once it's made (she's even done exhibitions), but do wonder if any mentions about the process and details can be made in a separate section.

Just checked Nathan Chen, even though he collaborated with Vera Wang multiple times, it's only mentioned once.

I'll accept the decision of only writing it in the relevant sections, though. @FigureskatingfanEditor120918756 (talk) 19:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Since costume designers are not listed on the skaters' official ISU biographies, it is difficult to find this information for all skaters or programs. We did not even find reliable sources for all of Hanyu's competitive costumes. So my suggestion is:

• If the costume designer is notable by themself or
• the skater has a long record of collaborations with that designer,

then mention them at a suitable place in the career summary (first collab for example) with a reliable secondary source. No separate section required for that in my opinion. Henni147 (talk) 11:42, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 I agree we won't find it for everyone, but it's still available for some people. It's okay to add them into prose, IMO, but maybe we can go season-wise whenever this collaboration happens. Need not be uniform for each skater.

BTW, can you translate the Satomi Ito article into English? Editor120918756 (talk) 12:10, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: Yes, I can do that. Henni147 (talk) 07:28, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 Oh wow, thanks for agreeing! I don't know any Japanese, but do have some recent articles saved up. Editor120918756 (talk) 08:51, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: Thanks! I should have a bunch of Japanese newspaper and magazine articles myself in my source container that we use for Hanyu's series. My Japanese is not a hit either (currently beginner level A1, but I'm working on A2). However, we have some native Japanese authors in our team. I can ask them for help ;) Henni147 (talk) 09:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Great. Here's the German one I found: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satomi_It%C5%8D Editor120918756 (talk) 10:10, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Detailed results

Hello everyone, @Henni147 and I have been having a discussion on their talk page about placing secondary sources in the tables in the Detailed results sections of skater bios, as I've started to do here, and as I've also done at List of highest scores in figure skating. Instead of replicating our discussion here, I refer you to Henni's talk page above, but the question we'd like to discuss is the following:

Question(s): Should secondary sources be included in the Detailed scores of skaters' bios, and if so, how should it be done? Also should secondary sources be included in List of highest scores in figure skating?

Thank you all for your input and participation. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I strongly agree that sources should not be included attached to individual scores. If an editor wishes to attach a reference to the table, I believe there is already a mechanism in place to create a column just for references. I do not want to sound harsh, but those tables on the Yuna Kim article are almost unreadable as is. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98, that was one of the options suggested on Henni's talk page. I'm fine with handling things this way. I can't remember who created the Detailed scores template, so whomever did that, would it be okay if we added another column? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 designed that template. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan and Bgsu98: Technically, it is possible to add an extra ref column to the table templates. However, before we do that, we should have an agreement on a uniform solution for all articles.

• The official ISU results pages already have their own "Details" column, which is strongly recommended to be used for all skaters. They don't burden the reference section unnecessarily, don't require extra citation templates, and keep the article size as small as possible. At the same time, readers have easy access to the full competition protocols, which are among the most frequently clicked external links on skaters' bios. We developed this solution in the course of the FLC review of Hanyu's career achievements list, so it's an accepted and prevailed solution on English Wiki.
• If we add an additional ref column, it should only include one reliable secondary source per row at max. More would (a) mess up the line-height and formatting of the tables, (b) slow down the page loading, and (c) completely blow up the reference section. You must keep in mind that there is an upper limit for the number of templates that can be included in an article. There are many skaters with 50 or more competitions listed in the detailed results, so even with one inline citation per event it would already mean +50 additional templates. This is a lot.
• Another issue that I already mentioned on my talk page is the very selective reporting on skaters and skating events by the media. For skaters like Hanyu or events like the Winter Olympics you find tons of newspaper articles. But how about scores for lower-ranked skaters or challenger events for example? The point of reliable secondary sources is to prove the encyclopedic notability of an information. But if only half of the results is sourced with secondary sources, then we shoot ourselves in the leg because we basically prove that not all scores are notable enough for Wiki. This is exactly the opposite of what we want to achieve.

If the majority of us supports the addition of another ref column, I will add it to the template. However, considering all the points mentioned above, I genuinely think that a list of secondary sources like that (especially if incomplete) would come with far more disadvantages than the encyclopedic value it would have. That is my personal opinion. Henni147 (talk) 09:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I support adding the extra ref column to our table templates. I'm responding to Henni's points below:

• I support using the solution described in the first point for all figure skating articles.
• What is the upper limit for the number of templates allowed? There are 48 tables on List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu and probably hundreds of templates. Larger articles and lists all have hundreds of sources. For figure skating articles, most of the time there would be one additional source and at the most, three. I disagree that it would be adversely harmful in formatting and loading times. Additionally, most of the sources listed in the scores tables are and can be reused in the prose sections.
• Re: selective reporting: Yes, I agree that figure skating reporting is a problem, both in general and for our purposes. We don't list every reliable source to support all of our claims, just the most reliable reliable sources. For example, when we can't find support in The New York Times, we fall back on sources like Golden Skate, which as you know, Henni, has been questioned in FACs. As you probably also know, sources can be repetitive, especially about scores. It's problematic, troubling, and disheartening that the media doesn't report on minor competitions and skaters. Other topics have the same difficulty and unfortunately, when there aren't enough reliable sources, the subject isn't notable. If only half of the sources are notable, we need to support and defend our use of primary sources like the ISU or other skating scores lists.

Therefore, my position is that including secondary sources to support our claims, even scores and even information in tables and templates, has lots of advantages and adds encyclopedia value, as Henni puts it above. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:29, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Formatting question: female & male partners

I have been attempting to format the tables in many of the current FS articles to match those of List of highest scores in figure skating, for example, since I know this involved a lot of discussion. Can someone please clue me in on the rationale for differentiating between the male and female partners in the pairs and ice dance tables? I actually like this format, but have received some pushback, so I'd like to know where to direct people's attention when they complain. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:15, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98, to be honest, I've never liked the existing format, so thank you for bringing this up. I'd prefer combining the Female partner/Male partner columns and renaming it to Pairs team or Dance team or something like that. It's very likely that in the next several years, figure skating won't make the distinction or that same-sex partners will be allowed, like it is now in Canada. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:43, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I really don’t like the use of the slash to separate the two names, but that’s what ISU uses, so I guess I’d have to take that up with them. 😂 Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:49, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

It's WikiProject Figure Skating policy to refer to teams like this: Sui Wenjing and Han Cong. I support following that convention because you're so right about the slashes. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm talking about inside the tables. In prose, they of course need to be separated by "and". That's a whole other argument. It's also totally inappropriate to use flag icons outside of competition tables, but I see those all over the figure skating articles, too. Bgsu98 (Talk) 02:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bgsu98, I just saw that your question never got answered, so better late than never. I was suggesting that the "Male partner" and "Female partner" columns be combined and titled "Pairs team" and "Dance teams", and then list the names in the columns below, like "Sui Wenjing and Han Cong". So there'd be 5 columns instead of 6, unless you decide to do away with the flag icons. Hopefully, my meaning is clear now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:47, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I’ve used a generic Team for pairs/dance. Bgsu98 (Talk) 18:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan and Bgsu98: Hi, I just stumbled across this discussion here.

The main reason for separate columns is a technical one. To make the sorting tool with name templates correctly work, it's important to place the skaters in separate columns. In the case that same-sex pairs are introduced, we can rename the columns to "skater 1" and "skater 2" or something similar.

Before we remove the second column, we should definitely ask experts for MOS:DTAB if a single-column solution would meet Wiki's requirements for accessbility and correct sorting without any technical issues. Currently, I cannot think of any solution that would not violate one of the two. Henni147 (talk) 12:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Combining two Yuna Kim articles

Hi everyone, as you all know, I've been involved in improving Yuna Kim's bio. At the request of several members of this project, I created a new forked article, Impact of Yuna Kim, for the purpose of shortening the length of Kim's bio. A Wikidata editor suggested, on my talk page, why we don't combine the above new article with a slightly older one, Media image and impact of Yuna Kim. I told them that I'd bring up the idea here, so that's what I'm doing. As I said over there, I'm opposed to it, since the two new articles are very different. Please discuss, but please do so quickly so I have time to bring the newer one to DYK. Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: I would also be opposed to combining them as I think they have different scopes. Maybe we could rename the media article to something like "Media career of Yuna Kim" to make the distinction clearer? I think you should go ahead with the DYK nomination as nobody else has voiced any objections. Artemisia (talk) 16:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@Artemisialufkin, I agree, especially with your idea about the renaming. I'd like to get @Editor120918756's input on this, since they created it in the first place. Ed, what say you? In the meantime, I'll move forward with the DYK and create a new Kim category, as the other editor also suggested that we do. Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan@Artemisialufkin

Media Image of Yuna Kim sounds good to me.

Which editor suggested a separate category? Editor120918756 (talk) 18:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, see the link of the discussion to my talk page above. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Everyone, I've finally created: Category:Yuna Kim. Please add any article you deem appropriate. Happy holidays! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

PRODs

Hello, WikiProject,

I review upcoming Proposed deletions and it look like there are a lot of skating competitions that have been tagged for deletion over the next 7 days. Many WikiProjects have set up an article alert so they know about articles on certain subjects that are coming up at PROD or AFD but it looks like you don't have that set up. But if you scan User:DumbBOT/ProdSummary, it lists upcoming PRODs. If you see some tagging that you have issues with, you might spend some time improving those articles and, perhaps, untagging the article. If you agree that these articles are safe to delete, then do nothing and they will be deleted on schedule. Thank you and Happy New Year! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Is it possible to add Figure skating as a category when listing AFDs or PRODs? Bgsu98 (Talk) 01:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

See these article proposed for deletion 6 days ago:

• Slovenia Open (figure skating)
• North American Challenge Skate
• New Year's Cup
• Mont Blanc Trophy
• Mladost Trophy
• International Trophy of Lyon

If there are no objections, they'll be deleted in about 24 hours.

If you agree or disagree with any of these deletions, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 02:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Bgsu98, I don't know much about this. Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Article alerts. Article talk pages must first be tagged with Template:WikiProject Figure Skating; if these articles are subsequently proposed (PROD) or nominated (AfD), I think a bot automatically adds the the article to the list. At least, I think that's how it works.

There are many tools for WikiProjects at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide - I suggest taking a look. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 02:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Milly Murdock Bio

Hi, I have submitted a draft for review for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Emilia_Murdock bio and marked it as mid-tier importance because she is the Spanish national champion. I would appreciate any additional help or advice on formatting or potential changes for approval. All sources should be up to date and most critical fs infboxes added.

Thank you! Gracias! Smoogrish2 (talk) 13:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Smoogrish2, the link you provide above brings you to the published article, not a draft. Did you want us to give you feedback about it? If so, I'm more than happy to oblige. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I moved the article into mainspace because it met the criteria for notability per WP:NSKATE. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

It looks like it got approved - thank you all for your help! Smoogrish2 (talk) 00:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

World Figure Skating Championships

I am engaged in a back-and-forth with another editor regarding the table formatting on this article, as well as at European Figure Skating Championships. I am attempting to bring these articles into alignment with other figure skating articles vis à vis the formatting and layout. Please offer any feedback or insight. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I have already described in detail why the format of tables with names of medalists which you propose is not convenient for visual perception (in the "Edit summary" of changes to Wikiarticle about "World Figure Skating Championships"). Let me write all my points here before you will initiate another edit war.

1) I understand that you are trying to unify widths of cells in all four tables. But it's very difficult to do it when two tables are filled by names of medalists in singles events while other two - in pair events. It's width of cells which should be adjusted to the name of medalists, not other way around. As a result, for first two tables it became more difficult for readers to visually put information for each championship into one line at monitors with large-screen displays. By the contrast, at last two tables the names of medalists in pair events in certain cells are became to be extended on two rows instead of just one (especially at monitors with medium-size and small-size displays). As a result, information about certain tournaments became more visible than information about other tournaments while it should be visible so equally as it's possible.

2) The font of background which you choose for cells with notes is too dull. It attracts first attention of readers and some distracts them from main information (names of medalists). I replaced it with more bright colour.

3) Unlike cancelled tournaments of 1915-1921 and 1940-1946 (locations of which were never determined due to World Wars), the locations of cancellled tournaments of 1961 and 2020 were clearly determinated. Moreover, in both cases some figure skaters and officials already managed to arrive into these location just to hear news what these tournaments were cancelled few days before the start. So, I filled the cell "Location" for cancelled championships of 1961 and 2020. As a possible option, you can remove this information in order to add it into general notifications like - Competition scheduled to be held in Prague; cancelled due to the Sabena Flight 548 crash (for 1961) and Competition scheduled to be held in Montreal; cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic (for 2020). It also corresponds with similar list of medalists which was published by ISU few years ago. As you can see, they published information about location of World Championships 1961 and European Championships of 1891 and 1892 - even despite all these tournaments were eventually cancelled (see links https://web.archive.org/web/20060221144348/http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-148235-165451-56216-0-file,00.pdf and https://web.archive.org/web/20131205043922/http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-147122-164338-54457-0-file,00.pdf ). So I don't see any reason why this information can't be mentioned in tables at Wikipages as well.

As we found out during discussion at my "Talk page", the format of tables which I finally proposed does not directly violate any Wikipedia rules. The only violation you could find is inconsistenty with other Wikiarticles about figure skating. But the only reason of this inconsistenty is because you changed tables in these Wikiarticles during last 6 months. Sorry, but this is weak argument. I can change these Wikiarticles right now (in accordance with its old versions) - and then your format will be inconsistent with these articles. So, in order to get rid of this inconsistency, we can change tables at these Wikiarticles in accordance with the format which will be accepted as a result of this discussion (if you want, I can help you with that).

Speaking in general, I noticed that not only I but also few other users don't like formats which you proposed. Well, in this case, I can only recommend you to listen their opinions in order to find a reasonable compromise (if only there is no direct violation of Wikirules from their side). As you may remember, I agreed with some of your objections at my "Talk page" and changed the format of the tables partially taking your opinion into account. Perhaps you should to the same instead of initiating new edit war. Otherwise, there will be always risk that you can be blocked from editing at Wikipedia again (for larger period).

Also, it would be better to read opinions of other (unbiased) users about proposed formats of tables. Hyperion82 (talk) 13:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Comments:

1. First of all, the !scope=col| must be put back for the Ref. table cell at the top. This is mandatory for proper accessbility of the tables with screenreader tools.
2. Please use the {{abbr}} template for abbreviations like "Ref.", not {{tooltip}}.
3. Also, tables on Wikipedia should have a caption. See example below.
4. I agree with Hyperion82 that the dark grey color choice is distracting. I would go with the lighter grey here as well.
5. I managed to create a new medalist template that should solve all our problems with bulkiness, formatting, etc. Here is an example of its usage:

List of World medalists in pair skating

Year	Location	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Ref.
1910	Berlin	Anna Hübler Heinrich Burger	Ludowika Eilers Walter Jakobsson	Phyllis Johnson James H. Johnson
1915–1921	No competition held due to World War I
2021	Sweden	FSR Anastasia Mishina Aleksandr Galliamov	Sui Wenjing Han Cong	FSR Aleksandra Boikova Dmitrii Kozlovskii

The source code would look like this:

{|class="wikitable" |+List of World medalists in pair skating !scope=col|Year !scope=col|Location !scope=col style="background:gold;"|Gold !scope=col style="background:silver;"|Silver !scope=col style="background:#c96;"|Bronze !scope=col|{{abbr|Ref.|References}} |- !scope=row|[[1910 World Figure Skating Championships|1910]] |{{flagicon|German Empire}} [[Berlin]] |{{FS medalist|German Empire|Anna Hübler|Heinrich Burger}} |{{FS medalist|German Empire|Ludowika Eilers|link=Ludowika Jakobsson|flag2=FIN|Walter Jakobsson}} |{{FS medalist|GBR|Phyllis Johnson|James H. Johnson|dap2=yes}} | |- !scope=row|1915–1921 |colspan=4 align=center style="background-color:#F2F2F2;"|''No competition held due to [[World War I]]''|| |- !scope=row|[[2021 World Figure Skating Championships|2021]] |{{flagicon|SWE}} [[Sweden]] |{{FS medalist||noflag=[[Figure Skating Federation of Russia|FSR]]|Anastasia Mishina|Aleksandr Galliamov}} |{{FS medalist|CHN|Sui Wenjing|Han Cong}} |{{FS medalist||noflag=[[Figure Skating Federation of Russia|FSR]]|Aleksandra Boikova|Dmitrii Kozlovskii}} | |}

This table formatting meets Wiki's requirements for accessibility, is much more compact in width and display size, and has a much shorter source code than the current one. Henni147 (talk) 21:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I still believe the Gold, Silver, and Bronze columns should be of uniform widths, regardless of whether the tables themselves are of uniform widths. On one of those tables, the Bronze column is grossly out of proportion because one bronze medalist has a ridiculously long name. It is very distracting.

Additionally, I did not choose the gray (it’s actually “lightgray”, believe it or not; “darkgray” is even darker)… It was already in use, and I just expanded its use. I’m fine with switching to another shade if it’s that big a deal. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: I agree that the columns should not be too different in width. I think that with my solution above, this issue should be resolved automatically more or less. But I don't mind making the columns uniform from the beginning. Henni147 (talk) 22:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for proposed format. I like it much better. I also think that with your solution, the width of Gold, Silver, and Bronze columns will be more or less the same for each discipline (except few cases when some medalists has really long full names but I guess it's possible to make exceptions for them) Hyperion82 (talk) 22:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Hyperion82 and Bgsu98: You can find the documentation for the new template here: {{FS medalist}}

I will write a more detailed breakdown for the parameters tomorrow. In the case that the table columns still have a different size, you can simply limit the max width of the new template. That should fix everything easily.

I hope that this will resolve all issues ;) Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 22:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. What's your opinion about my third argument - see above (about locations of tournaments which were determinated but eventually cancelled for various reasons like lack of ice, Sabena Flight 548 crash or COVID-19 pandemic)? This information exist in the mentioned references to official ISU's pages. As I can see, Bgsu98 removed this information from "Location" column again. I sure we must keep this information in this column or at least add this information to the notes - see my examples above Hyperion82 (talk) 09:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Henni147, please advise on how to handle specialty flags in this template. For example: ((flagicon|HUN|1874)). Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Gustav Hügel

Ulrich Salchow

@Bgsu98: Oh, right! Forgot about those, thank you very much for noticing. Added the |altflag= parameter for this case.

Example 1: {{FS medalist|AUT|altflag=empire|Gustav Hügel}}

Example 2: {{FS medalist|SWE|altflag=1844|Ulrich Salchow}}

If there are any other parameter or display issues, just ping me. Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 08:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: Thanks for updates. I think there will be problems with these Hungarian flags - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Hungary_(1915-1918,_1919-1946).svg and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Hungary_(1946-1949,_1956-1957).svg Can you help with this? Hyperion82 (talk) 09:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Testcase

Testcase

{{FS medalist|HUN|altflag=1915|Testcase}} and {{FS medalist|HUN|altflag=1946|Testcase}} should render correctly, see examples on the right.

Tipp: if you are not sure about the flagicon value for a historical flag, you can go to the image transcription page on Wiki Commons and check some articles listed at the bottom how the flags got embedded there ;) Henni147 (talk) 14:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: Hello. Bgsu98 and I started to correct tables at the page "European Figure Skating Championships" according to new format. Unfortunately, since some moment, flags at the tables, notes and references below were stopped to be shown. Can you help to solve this problem? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Figure_Skating_Championships Hyperion82 (talk) 20:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

See the response at the technical page where I requested assistance. I don't believe this problem will be resolvable. I recommend removing the templates from the singles tables since they don't really seem to have solved the original problem. They do improve the pairs/dance table. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

@Hyperion82 and Bgsu98: Oh yes, you are right. Sorry, I totally forgot about the transclusion limit for templates ... I support Bgsu98's suggestion to use the new template for pairs and dance only for the time being.

In the long-term, it might be necessary to do a page split. We can expect the World and European Championships to be held for another couple of decades, maybe even centuries. It might be worth a consideration to create separate list articles for the World and European medalists by discipline and move the cumulative medal counts there as well. What do you think? Henni147 (talk) 10:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98 and Hyperion82: Just checked the latest changes on the World FS Championships. The new tables for pairs and dance look really nice now! Great job Henni147 (talk) 16:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Those same changes have also been incorporated on European Championships. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Excellent. Well done!

By the way: If you need bundled sources for all World and European medalists until 2023, you can use these ones here from Sport Record Info. It was approved as a reliable secondary source in the FL review of Hanyu's career achievements list:

• Müller, Stephan. "Sports Statistics: Figure Skating (Olympics, Worlds, Grand Prix Final, and World Team Trophy)". Sport Record Info. Berlin. Retrieved March 17, 2024.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
• Müller, Stephan. "Sports Statistics: Figure Skating (European Championships)". Sport Record Info. Berlin. Retrieved March 17, 2024.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

They regularly update it after each championship (with few months delay in worst case). You can use these sources to unburden the reference sections of the articles if needed. Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 16:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Henni147, please advise how to tag that template so that red links do not display and are instead replaced by plain text. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: You mean display names in black if the skaters don't have their own article yet? Yes, I can do that. However, figure skating medalists at Worlds and Euros should generally have their own Wiki articles, so I actually think it's better to add red links for them. It encourages readers to create missing biographies, see WP:SKATER. And it also reminds editors to check if they have linked to the correct page (if it already exists). So red links have multiple advantages in this case. Henni147 (talk) 14:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I am incorporating that template into lesser competition tables. I generally unlink red links for competitions over 4-5 years old. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: That makes sense. Okay, I will see what I can do ;)

UPDATE: I added two new parameters to the template. To suppress article links, set |nolink=yes or |nolink2=yes. Example:

{{FS medalist|GER|Anna Lange|nolink=yes|Klaus Herz|nolink2=yes}}

• Anna Lange
• Klaus Herz

Hope it works ;) Henni147 (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)