Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 45

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Netherlands

It turns out that the Dutch Eredivisie was completely part-time until 1965. Over the ensuing few years most teams were then a blend of full and part time players. There were even some part timers in the Feyenoord team which won the 1970 European Cup. I'm not sure the full league went "fully pro" at that stage (e.g. Louis van Gaal captained Sparta Rotterdam in the 80s while working as a school teacher). More research is needed and For anybody who is interested I am collating the info here: User:Bring back Daz Sampson/Professionalism in Dutch football. Evidenced additions welcome :) Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 15:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I suspect that entire squads of full-time professionals were permitted in 1967, but that the process was not immediate. This seems reasonable when we consider that the top team in the Netherlands (and Europe) Feyenoord still had some part-timers in 1970. I sincerely doubt that the teams lower down the league were entirely full-time until much later – although I haven't got much evidence of this yet. I won't quibble over three years if consensus prefers 1967 to "~1970" as the cut-off. It is a dynamic list and we can always correct it later when new evidence comes to light. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 13:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, I am having a browse of the references that you provided in the link and there is definitively talk about the Eredivisie not being professional in the earlier years. HawkAussie (talk) 05:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I think without evidence that most clubs were still at least partly semi-professional, it would make sense to say 1967 for now. Number 5 7 09:34, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

In 1978-79 there were 136 full pros and 295 semi pros in the Eredivisie. In 1979-80 there were 132 full pros and 283 semi pros. In the Eerste divisie there were only 6 full pros in 1978-79 and 4 in 1979-80 (SC Amersfoort numbers not included). [1]. Cattivi (talk) 20:01, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Very interesting @Cattivi:, thank you. So it's clear in 1980 they were still a long way off 'fully professionalism'. I thought Johan de Kock playing in Euro 96 as a part-timer was one of these fabled "random outliers" but perhaps not. Realistically the Netherlands seems to be like the situation in Scotland where you had part-timers very common in the top division until the TV money started to come along in the 90s. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:26, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Number 57 when you state "I think without evidence that most clubs were still at least partly semi-professional, it would make sense to say 1967 for now" can you let Nehme1499 know? Seems s/he is reverting changes without contributing to the discussion here... You also have a fascinating recorded history of reverts on this WP:ESSAY - thought you might want to act consistently. Hmlarson (talk) 18:54, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I have no opinion on this discussion. I'm just saying that it's premature to start removing/adding content before a proper consensus has been formed. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 18:42, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

And yet, there is absolutely no one disagreeing here and a WP:CONSENSUS is evident. I agree that this is still an WP:ESSAY since there was no consensus on this (15:24, June 22, 2019‎ edit from Number 57). Hmlarson (talk) 19:07, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I see different cut-off dates here: 1965, 1967, 1970, 1980... Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal. Giant Snowman 19:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Where is the WP:LOOKATME essay? Hmlarson (talk) 21:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

It's pretty clear from the evidence provided by Cattivi that it was not fully-professional before 1980 – that is all we can state definitively for now. Number 5 7 21:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Not quite - the stats provided by Cattivi only show it was NOT fully pro for 1978–1980. No indication before or after. Giant Snowman 10:52, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I think I'd like to see some evidence supporting this League's inclusion, ideally with dates. At present the only source supposedly demonstrating 'fully professionalism' is a defunct Wordpress blog from 2010 (which is completely mute on the subject). At the moment we are giving a misleading impression the the two thirds of part-timers in the Eredivisie suddenly all became full-time in 1980 – and that the Eerste Divisie has always been 'fully professional'. We now have an unsatisfactory situation where one appearance in the 80/81 Eredivisie will "confer presumed notability". It's interesting to me that in favoured cases like this the bias seems to be towards preserving "fully professionalism" at all costs whereas in certain other cases the opposite seems to apply. Let's be clear: this form of POV-pushing from Number 57 might not be as crude and childish as some of GiantSnowman's, but it is no less insidious. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 14:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I put 1980 as a placeholder in the absence of anything more definite as I thought it was better than having nothing (which would suggest it was always fully-professional). It could be reworded to something like (at some point after 1980) if that's preferable. Number 5 7 15:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I can see that the Eerste Divisie has been removed entirely. Was there enough consensus for this? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 14:55, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

No, I didn't notice it being removed - I have restored. Clearly it can't have been fully-pro if the Eredivisie wasn't for a time, but removing completely is not supported. Giant Snowman 15:09, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Number 57, GiantSnowman, Bring back Daz Sampson - according to this 2019 FIFA report, there are 34 professional clubs in the Netherlands. Since the Eredivisie has 18 clubs and the Eerste Divisie has 20 clubs, this casts doubts over the professional status of some of the 2nd tier clubs. What do we reckon? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

My research at User:Bring back Daz Sampson/Professionalism in Dutch football#Eerste Divisie strongly suggests that the Dutch second tier has never been "fully professional". Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Spiderone: I assume that's just because there are four Eredivisie reserve teams in the Eerste Divisie. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 17:59, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Possibly. BBDS' research shows that TOP Oss and MVV Maastricht are semi-professional as well, though. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:14, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I see no reason to remove the Eerste Divisie from the list. Giant Snowman 18:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Better get a source to support its inclusion then. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:16, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

There is one, refer to the list.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

A defunct blog which doesn't even address the subject? Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 10:47, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I have to agree with BBDS on this - the only source supporting Eerste Divisie is a blog which I do not see how it is verifiable. From my read through the source, it also doesn't seem to mention "fully-professional" or incomes of the players. --SuperJew (talk) 12:01, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

@Spiderone: - that FIFA list has a more lenient, and somewhat odd, definition of professionalism than we do, i.e. it seems to include all of the SPFL most of the National League, the Namibia Premier League, and what I assume is the top three tiers of Senegalese football (I don't know as we don't even have articles for leagues below the Senegal Premier League). It just seems to be a list of clubs who play in leagues which call themselves 'professional'. Anyways, this suggests an average salary in the Eerste Divisie of €2750/month, or €33000/year, which is roughly the same as the Dutch average wage. This, to me at least, satisfies the first part of the requirements. I don't know about the second part, but if someone could find any sources for that, that would be great. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:37, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, a quick look at the methodology section in that FIFA report shows we shouldn't use it as conclusive, as it's largely self-reported. SportingFlyer T·C 23:44, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Can any Dutch editors find sources to confirm the professional status of the Eerste Divisie either way? @Bocanegra and Cattivi: et al? Giant Snowman 12:06, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I note the league is described as "professional" by KNVB, which contrasts with the Tweede Divisie clearing being detailed as a mix of professional and amateur (i.e. semi-pro). "At the top of the new pyramid is the Eredivisie, followed by the First Division, a new Second Division (Tweede divisie), two amateur Third Divisions (formerly Topklasse) and four amateur Hoofdklasse leagues". Giant Snowman 12:30, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

This says there are 1,000 professional players in the Netherlands, of which 400 earn less than minimum wage. That works out as 25 players for 40 teams in the top 2 divisions; presumably it is young players who earn less. The Eredivisie average salary is 291,000 per year. Giant Snowman 12:33, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Clubs in the Eerste divisie need to have 16 players earning more than the minimum wage to get a license. s.05 Cattivi (talk) 12:55, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks again Cattivi it is refreshing to get an occasional contribution based on evidence, as yours always are. This requirement looks to have been reduced to only 14 players now. And the wording allows for these contracted players to be part-timers, as long as they are paid the equivalent of a full-time minimum wage? ("[...] ongeacht het aantal uren dat zij onder contract staan"). Admittedly I don't understand Dutch, so apologies if I have picked this up wrong. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, because of COVID-19 the number for this season was reduced to 14 and will be 15 next season. [2]. Salaries were reduced as well. It doesn't matter if a footballer has a 20,30 or 36 hour contract. It's the amount of money they get that counts. Cattivi (talk) 19:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Clearly the wage is not the only thing to consider when chasing down the elusive - cough - concept of Wikipedia "fully professionalism". In the English men's National League the contracted part-time players are generally paid more than the equivalent of full-time UK minimum wage, but still only train two nights a week (just as Football League players did in the recent past). In the case of the Eerste Divisie, 14 players is only half a squad. Some of the 14 will be part-timers and some will be youths earning the tiny under-21 national minimum wage. A cross section of the other players in the league are paid a "volunteer's allowance". Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 00:10, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. It seems like most players, even with a pandemic, are earning enough to warrant the division staying on the list. What year should we propose as the cut-off point for full professionalism for the Eerste Divisie? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:08, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

BBDS's research says that "by 2000, 90% of Eerste Divisie players were full-time professionals", so 2000 might be a decent placeholder. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 23:54, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Maybe c.2000 for the Eredivisie, but the Eerste Divisie fell away in 2003 and then again in 2010 before it got anywhere close. Realistically it has never met the current "fully professional" definition. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 00:10, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. I think there was enough to support the Eerste Division's inclusion in 2000, and enough to support it now, though admittedly a lot of it comes down to semantics and how exactly the FPL definition is interpreted. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:04, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Ukraine

Are the Ukrainian First League and Ukrainian Second League (respectively the second and third tier) fully-pro? Can someone fluent in Ukrainian confirm what is being said in the source provided? I'm asking because Mohamed Dhou has been created on the basis of being a Ukrainian Second League player. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:53, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

What's going on with the deletionism lately? Not only is there a plague of sending as many "not professional" players to AfD, are we now looking to remove as many leagues as possible from the list so we can send more players to AfD? Use your time to improve existing articles, instead of working so hard to delete as much as possible. --SuperJew (talk) 19:36, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

If there are doubts about the professional status of leagues it is right they are raised here, and changes should be made as per consensus. Eldumpo (talk) 19:40, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Eldumpo: Where are the doubts about the status of the league? The question was raised literally because Mohamed Dhou has been created on the basis of being a Ukrainian Second League player. --SuperJew (talk) 19:47, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps I should question the status of La Liga since Ilaix Moriba was created on the basis of being a La Liga player? --SuperJew (talk) 19:49, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I have improved the article, if anything. But what I mean is that I really doubt he passes GNG: he "only" passes the requirement of playing in the Ukrainian third tier. So I wanted to make sure, since I can't read the source, that the league is indeed fully-pro. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:35, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

SuperJew (talk · contribs) I don't see the problem. If your scenario pops up, La Liga would rapidly be proven as fully-professional. If someone has a doubt, bring it up and if it's fully-pro it will be proven. If not, hey, we fixed a potential error. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:04, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: These are the official regulations of the respective leagues, managed by the Professional Football League of Ukraine, saying that only professional teams consisting of professional players can participate. Here is the 2020/21 version, stating that only teams of professional clubs can participate (Article 12.1), registered players must be professionals (Article 17.8), the club might be disqualified if they register players who are not employed by the club (Article 17.44), the club might be disqualified if they field a player whose work contract with the club is invalid or has expired (Article 45.2). There is indeed a possibility for an amateur player to take part in these two leagues, but only as a goalkeeper when all available goalkeepers are injured or seriously ill outside transfer windows (Article 17.31): this is a new norm, it was not there in 2019/20, perhaps covid-related. However, I don't think this has ever happened in practice (I don't think any amateur goalkeeper played this season), and in any case Mohamed Dhou is clearly not an amateur goalkeeper — NickK (talk) 23:35, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@NickK: Still, what exactly is meant by "only professional teams consisting of professional players"? What specifically is meant by the word "professional"? Does it mean that players can live off of just playing in the Ukrainian Second League? Or that they just "get paid regularly" but are really part-time and have other jobs to survive? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 23:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: What a fully professional league means in this case? The regulations only specify that players must be employed by the club and must receive all related social security benefits. It is illegal for a club to field a player who is not employed by the club, and it is illegal to employ someone in Ukraine and pay them less than a minimum wage. Thus it is absolutely clear that all Second League players earn at least a minimum wage.

In practice Second League salaries are reported to be around 500 USD/month (roughly 13 kUAH), right in line with the national average salary of 12 kUAH. Not a great salary but one can definitely live on it. Here is another report saying that Second League players earn 10-15 kUAH/month and have to work daily, while top AAFU players can earn more (1000€ or 30 kUAH/month) and do not have to train daily: this basically confirms the border between pros and amateurs. Here is a 2016/17 report: the least paid Second League players earned 2 kUAH and the average was around 5kUAH (the minimum wage was at 1600 UAH at that time and the average salary was at 5 kUAH): once again, all were paid above the minimum wage and around the average salary

Thus from all points of view First and Second leagues are fully professional leagues. Not great leagues with top players but professional ones — NickK (talk) 00:07, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@NickK: Perfect, thanks. I've added a source to the list. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:27, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Missing Many Brazilian Leagues

Their respective sets of rules all explicitly mention the league to be professional, following common obligations to the national and state leagues previously discussed and included on the list. Horcoff (talk) 15:50, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Horcoff - to aid non-Portuguese speakers, please could you provide translations for the relevant sections that support the claim that these are fully professional leagues? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

In the first page of all rulebooks, all leagues include "professional football championship" in their full title (Example: Campeonato Baiano de Futebol Profissional, which would be Bahia State Professional Football Championship). All the state leagues have relevant media coverage in their respective states, and the lowest average wages I could find for those leagues is R$ 2000, which is over the national minimum wage. The richest clubs from the state leagues play in the national leagues which are fully pro, and the players from the other clubs usually join clubs from those divisions in the second half of the season.

To sum it up, basically all the points made for the Brazilian Women Leagues above can be easily applied to those leagues - including the national database registration and the non-professional players being the U-20 ones. Horcoff (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

The Campeonato Gaúcho Série A2 (http://fgf.com.br/Layout/documentos/REGULAMENTO%20ESPECÍFICO%20DIVISÃO%20DE%20ACESSO-%202020.pdf) can also be included in this list, because it is also fully professional in the same way as the others. Lucas Gaúcho (talk) 00:36, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Do we have any details about how the salaries of, say, the Série D players compare to the national average? Just out of interest, are there actually any leagues in Brazil that aren't fully professional? Since Série D is the lowest point in which the league is defined in Brazil, it does seem odd that there isn't a league where people can play part-time and still have a career outside football. Do players definitely have to be full-time footballers? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The wages can vary. América-RN, for instance, has a R$ 200K monthly payroll (according to Veja) , same as Brusque, while the lowest payroll for a first division team is R$ 800K. While the Série D may be the lowest national league tier, the fact we have state leagues in our football pyramid make it hard to explain (and for foreigners to understand) the complexity of the Brazilian league systems. In all leagues, players have to be full-time footballers as long as their contract is up. The thing is, the lower level clubs often have short contracts for only the duration of the state leagues.

Example: The Campeonato Acreano is the Acre state league. By the rulebook, it claims to be fully pro. But only two or three teams have salaries around the national average. Those two or three teams are usually the ones that qualify for the Série D. On the other hand, the Campeonato Catarinense, which is based in a much richer state, have their clubs pay much more to their players than the Acre league.

This arcticle from Trivela kind of explains that. The Brazilian football system, by rule, is fully professional, which is absurd due to the large number of teams considered 'professional' in Brazil (around 800). The article says that things should be more like the English league system, but in reality, it's not. Horcoff (talk) 14:47, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

C-League (Cambodia) now professional

It would appear now that clubs in the C-League are fully professional as reported here and here. There seems to be many more foreign imports to the league now as well with some British guys there also and players like Marcus Haber, which seems to point at it being fully professional now. Cam (talk) 10:48, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

The first source says "Each club in the league is allowed five non-Cambodian players on its roster and only three of the five are able to play in any given match" - so I imagine the foreign players are professionals, but what about the local players? Giant Snowman 11:25, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

There is very little information on Cambodia in the latest FIFA report (page 20). Please note that they use a much more lenient definition of 'professional' than we do. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:28, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

The bias here is very much against non-white, Western leagues Cam, see for example above Bhutan, India etc. I don't fancy your chances of getting this league added to list, even if it is professional. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 20:18, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bring back Daz Sampson: the bias is against leagues that are not fully professional, I think you'll find. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

...and yet some leagues which have been shown to be less than "fully professional" are still on the list. Go figure! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Bring back Daz Sampson (talk · contribs) Neither the Bhutan and Indian 2nd Division were proven as fully-professional though. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:43, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

League of Ireland Premier Division

I'm sure up until a few weeks ago, this league was classed as fully professional, even if its Northern Irish equivalent was not. Can someone confirm if it has moved list, and if so, why? Many thanks. --OGBC1992 (talk) 12:54, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

It has never been on the list as fully-pro AFAIK - and it certainly has not been changed recently. Giant Snowman 14:42, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm almost positive it was - but I'm still a bit of a novice, especially in being able to search through edit history to see if particular lines have changed. Appreciate the help though!--OGBC1992 (talk) 09:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

At the top of this page, there is a search box. If you search for 'Ireland', you will see numerous discussions about whether this league should be included. Consensus has leaned towards it not meeting the criteria at WP:FPL. Hopefully, it will make the list someday. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:18, 24 March 2021 (UTC)