Portal talk:Taiwan/Archive 5

Requests for Comment (History & Geography)
I've added a request to RfC under the History and geography section. Get more input from the community. This portal is being made messy by politics. — Nrtm81 10:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Looking at the past debate, it appears that there is unlikely to be a resolution that everyone will be happy with. Because of all of the politics involved, there does not seem to be a truly neutral resolution.  My personal opinion is towards "Taiwan", because it is the name that it is generally known by, though "Taiwan Province" seems acceptable. Sxeptomaniac 17:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

consistency across portals
We should try to establish a consistent look-and-feel for all the China-related portals, Portal:China, Portal:Taiwan, Portal:Hong Kong, Portal:People's Republic of China, and Portal:Republic of China. I have created a Portal:People's Republic of China (new) consistent with Portal:China. Let's discuss this at Portal talk:China. Ideogram 18:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I suggest we use WikiProject China as the focal point to coordinate the China-related portals. — Nrtm81 19:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe we should then use Portal:Free Area of the Republic of China. It avoids the problem of the Pesacadores and the Taipei/Kaoshuing Municipulaties. It is also a very neutral name. -Chiang Kai-shek 00:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's also really extremely complicated. Most people probably would associate the Pescadores and Taipei/Kaohsiung with "Taiwan." I think have one Portal:Taiwan Island or Taiwan (island), including associated smaller islands, that deals with everything from pre-history to now and geography stuff and Portal:ROC to deal with pre-1949 history and its move to Taiwan and politics would be good. BlueShirts 18:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * We normally do not take claimed territories of a certain country into consideration when compiling information of that country (except for content related to history when we're dealing with former territories of such country). For example Olivenza is excluded from Portuguese statistical figures like population or area. &mdash; Instantnood 19:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you say "Taiwan island" in common speech? The most important thing is to make it clear that Taiwan isn't a country and that ROC currently administers the area. — Nrtm81 19:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So it should be Portal:Republic of China and Portal:Free Area of the Republic of China.- Chiang Kai-shek 02:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think since everyone knows the area as Taiwan, it would be better to leave the portal name as it is. Do you really think the name is inappropriate? Get more people to support your proposal and we'll see. — Nrtm81 03:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Portal:Taiwan should solely be related to Taiwan (the Pescadores, Keelung Islet, Liouciou, Green Island, Orchid Island, Gueishan Island, etc. included). Matsu, Wuchiu, Quemoy, Taiping and the Pratas are not related to Taiwan until the ROC lost the mainland. They do not have shared history and culture with Taiwan. Either restore everything and keep only one portal, or else these islands should not fall within the scope of portal:Taiwan. &mdash; Instantnood 17:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Taiwan is the most common name for the place in most countries I know about. We shouldn't call it something complicated just because the Chinese claim ownership. From what I gathered in articles around here, they appear to be in charge, fair enough, but that should have no influence on the name of the country or the portal. - Mgm|(talk) 11:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but I think Mgm is a bit confused. It is okay, he should be. There are technically "two China's." Both the people of Taiwan and Mainland China are "Chinese." The common name is Taiwan because many nations no longer retain diplomatic relations with the Republic of China. In the past, Taiwan was known solely as the Republic of China, Nationalist China, the Free China. You could even choose to use one of the above names. People confuse the China-Taiwan issue. That is most outsiders will just simply say Taiwan because they believe Taiwan is an independent sovereign nation. However, it is not, and in order to stop political tensions, we must find a neutral name. -Chiang Kai-shek 12:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It should be Taiwan. That's the common name, non-political and as everithing related to Taiwan... not completely accurate. Taiwan Province means that you are implying it is a province of China, in which case you must specify wich one, The PRC (cn) without no control over it (though absurd), or ROC, the one under which government Taiwan is, although non recognized by most nations (absurd too).

Vote for portal name.
Hey everyone, please vote for the name you'd prefer for the Taiwan portal by adding your signature below. You can also propose another portal name.

Portal:Taiwan

 * — Nrtm81 03:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Vsion 04:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC), preferably with a merge from Portal:Republic of China. The fork is unhealthy.
 * 05:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC) The other names sound too awkward and instill political preferences.
 * Captain0 05:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)As I am the one brings about this dispute, sorry for my absentation from the discussion. I will write a comment latter.
 * Ideogram 10:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Most commonly used name for the area by those not involved in any political conflict around the matter. Other names are unneccesarily complicated. - Mgm|(talk) 11:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Sxeptomaniac 15:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * LDHan 02:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yomangani 11:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A10203040 22:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC), doesn't imply that it must mean it's a separate nation, something like Portal:Hong Kong and Portal:Northern Ireland. Body of the article can deal with the dispute.
 * Yenchin 07:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC) Adding "Island" is pointless.
 * Loren 18:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC) Don't see the point of appending "Island" to the name as long as the content remains politically neutral and people follow the naming conventions when referring to the government or government related functions. See Portal:Ireland.
 * John Smith&#39;s 14:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC) I would say that I think keeping "Taiwan" is best - other suggestions are awkward, biased, etc.
 * -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC) If there is even a vote on-going.
 * Ling.Nut 14:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC) Taiwan. Please see Principle of least astonishment. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for hashing out differences. Top-headings -- the interface to the real world of people out there laboriously typing stuff into those little search boxes on the left side of the page -- should reflect common usage, while preferably including some gentle disentangling discussion further down on the page. Everyone calls the island Taiwan. So for page titles, defer to the masses, rather than impose a top-down decision from the rarefied air of a discussion page.  No one says to their neighbor over the backyard fence, "Hey, have you ever visited the Free Area of the Republic of China?"
 * Badbilltucker 16:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC) I agree with Ling.Nut as per the above.
 * Lenin13 05:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)This is the most neutral name. Does not exalt or diminish Taiwan's standing. Implies nothing about status.
 * Vindictive Warrior 05:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC) California has its own portal, and it's clearly a state within the U.S. I don't see a portal with the name "Hong Kong S.A.R.". Saying "Taiwan" doesn't imply political status at all. NPOV is one thing, but keeping it clean is also very important.

Portal:Taiwan Island or Portal:Taiwan (island) (please specify)
Either Portal: Taiwan Island or Portal:Free Area of the Republic of China. These are the two most neutral terms. They don't have any political implications. Even though some may think it is awkard or strange, they are neutral and are more clear and positive than "Portal:Taiwan." -Chiang Kai-shek 12:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Free Area of the Republic of China
Either Portal: Taiwan Island or Portal:Free Area of the Republic of China. These are the two most neutral terms. They don't have any political implications. Even though some may think it is awkard or strange, they are neutral and are more clear and positive than "Portal:Taiwan." -Chiang Kai-shek 12:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

color scheme and skeleton
Now that Portal:China, Portal:People's Republic of China, and Portal:Hong Kong all use the same color scheme and skeleton, I recommend that Portal:Taiwan and Portal:Republic of China also use the same color scheme and skeleton. I can perform the edits if you concur. Ideogram 14:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Woah woah woah! Say what? Are you sure the people editing Hong Kong portal will be okay with that? Ay! :-) Oh and btw, I'm definitely certain that Chiang Kai-shek, BlueShirts, and others won't agree to using red for the ROC portal theme. Commies!! Personally, I think PRC portal should use Red/Yellow and ROC portal should use Blue/White (political portal you know, very sensitive issue, colors). I don't mind the geography portals of China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, using the same color but will other people be okay with it? — Nrtm81 17:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * lol, "be bold" Ideogram, go ahead. If anyone objects, then .... (x_x;) — Nrtm81 17:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I object to the color scheme of Portal:Taiwan. The ROC and Taiwan portal pages should definitely NOT be RED. I believe Ideogram is a Communist at heart. Blue and white should be used. I suggest someone restore the color scheme, immediately. -Chiang Kai-shek 08:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That was hilarious :-) — Nrtm81 19:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Change the color scheme, now. -Nrtm81 02:45, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Warning to impersonator: Message above was left by User:Chiang Kai-shek using my name. Chiang Kai-shek, use your common sense please. If you mess around with my name again, I will report your misconduct to the admins. — Nrtm81 20:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * My mistake, apparently User:Jumping cheese changed Chiang Kai-shek's signature to my name. What's that all about? — Nrtm81 21:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm really sorry about that! That was a copying and pasting accident.  I inadvertently replaced the original signature with Nrtm81's user talk page. I humbly apologizes.  =(   Jumping cheese  Contact 21:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Be careful when editing next time :-) and sorry Chiang Kai-shek, I didn't check the page history properly and thought you were playing some prank joke. — Nrtm81 21:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I apologize to Nrtm81 and Chiang Kai-shek, who were both directly slandered by my carelessness. I'll be more careful in the future.  Jumping cheese  Contact 21:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with users Nrtm81 and Nrtm81's idea to use Blue and White as the color scheme. =D  Jumping cheese  Contact 07:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I am going to have to disagree with the current red color scheme. The fact that Portal:China, Portal:People's Republic of China, and Portal:Hong Kong all have red color scheme because they are all directly related to China, prevents the Taiwan/POC Portals from also having a red color scheme.  By allowing Portal:Taiwan and Portal:Republic of China’s color scheme to remain the same as the China related Portals, Wikipedia is taking a controversial political stance that China has direct control over the Taiwan/ROC territories.  At best, China has a questionable and indirect jurisdiction over Taiwan/ROC.


 * Wikipedia is taking a "controversial political stance" if the ROC Portal doesn't use red, anyway, since the PRC government claims direct control over Taiwan. There has been a case when a Korean map did not use the same color for PRC and ROC, and PRC pressurized the authority into changing it. It is impossible to satisfy both governments, and I suggest using red since 1. The PRC government is larger, more important and diplomatically recognized, 2. Red is the favourite color of the Chinese, and is symbolic for luck and happiness. Since ROC is culturally identical with China, using red is no problem. Aranherunar 04:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That makes no sense at all. Red is the favorite color of the Chinese culture, it has nothing to do with politics.  Explain why red is the predominant color on the flags of both the PRC and the ROC.  Ideogram 07:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Explain why we give and receive red envelopes at Chinese New Year. Explain why Chinese brides traditionally wear red.  Ideogram 07:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey Ideogram! I pulled this excerpt from the Wikipedia page "Red".
 * Beginning with the Revolution of 1848, "Socialist" red was used as a color of European Revolutionaries, often in the form of the red flag. It was also used by Garibaldi's camicie rosse ("redshirts") in the Italian Risorgimento, and taken up by Leftist and generally radical groups, while the white of legitimist Bourbon partisans became associated with pre-World War I conservatives. This relates to the term "Blood of the workers", representing the suffering of the proletariat.
 * For instance the Civil War in Russia and the Civil War in Finland were fought between the "Red Army" and various "White Armies".
 * The identification of Communism with "Socialist" red (with the red flag being the primary color of the flag of the Soviet Union) and the red star being a Communist emblem led to such Cold War phrases as "the Red Menace" and "Red China" (distinguished from Nationalist China, "Free China," or Taiwan). See also The East is Red. Mao Zedong was sometimes referred to as a "red sun". The color was also associated with political vehicles such as the Red Guard in China and the Red Guards during the Russian Revolution of 1917 as well as with left wing paramilitary groups such as the Red Army Faction in Germany and the Japanese Red Army.
 * Red remains associated with parties on the left of the political spectrum, with several notable exceptions (see "Political Parties" below)
 * In ancient China, red was the symbol of South and Fire, one of the main five colors.
 * In Chinese symbolism, red is the color of good luck and is used for decoration and wedding attire. Money in Chinese societies is traditionally given in red packets.

That kind of sums up the political nature of using red, whether politics were intended or not. If you still disagree, I can make a vote section like Captain0 did for the Portal name. Anyways, have fun editing and be happy! =)  Jumping cheese  Contact 20:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Red was the favorite color of Chinese culture for thousands of years before Communism existed. Anyway, if Nrtm81 wants to change the color of the portals he maintains (Taiwan and ROC) I won't fight him.  Ideogram 23:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What shall we do? Have seperate colors for each of the five portals? (as it was before) — Nrtm81 21:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanxs for changing the color scheme. Yellow for Taiwan and Blue for ROC are indeed rather neutral colors. =D   Jumping cheese  Contact 03:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, my original comment that I left was deleted somehow by someone. And no, I didn't impersonate Nrtm81 as he clarified. I believe the ROC portal's blue color is a bit too dark. You should change it back to the original blue, before Ideogram attempted to turn the ROC portal into a Communist portal. The Taiwan portal should also be the same color. It is governed by the ROC government and therefore it should have the same color, not some random yellow. For example, Hong Kong is governed by the PRC, so it is red. I think we should make it more uniform. -Chiang Kai-shek 11:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Portal:Hong Kong was originally dark blue (same as Portal:Republic of China now) before Ideogram applied the red color to all China-related portals. It's now reverted back to dark blue. — Nrtm81 15:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't learn to avoid personal attacks and assume good faith I'll file the RFAR against you myself. --Ideogram 19:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I know this comes a bit late but as for less politically sensitive color schemes for this particular portal, how about teal (or some varient thereof), which is neither blue nor green. -Loren 19:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

bold links
In the news section of Portal:ROC I don't think it's a good idea to bold the links. They are already a different color and get underlined when you hover over them. Portal:Hong Kong doesn't bold any links and I think we should follow that example. Plus, two of the links are redlinks. On top of that you bolded some of the links and not others, and I can't understand why.

BTW I think we should let Portal:ROC have its own talk page now. Ideogram 00:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I was trying to emulate the news on Wikipedia's Main Page. The main article of the news item is in bold text. The red links are articles that are new but not yet created since the news sometimes introduces a new topic or issue not yet covered by Wikipedia. For example, I created the Chien-Cheng Circle article, but haven't gotten around to creating the articles that are still in red link color.


 * OK I can understand that. Ideogram 23:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * On another topic, do you think the news items concerning conducted survey are appropriate or not? Since the survey lists PRC as a nation and ROC/Taiwan as a seperate nation. Personally, I find them interesting but... political correctness. — Nrtm81 18:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would prefer not to include the news item that mentions PRC and not ROC, but it's not a big deal. Ideogram 23:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Resolution?
Again, we need to go back to getting a resolution. The problem is still not yet resolved. I would like at least to settle on Taiwan Island. -Chiang Kai-shek 12:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Then should the article name of Taiwan be changed to Taiwan Island since that article links to this portal. — Nrtm81 00:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes so change it to Taiwan Island please. Thank you. -Chiang Kai-shek 14:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If you want to change the portal and article name to "Taiwan Island", then you should make the changes yourself. If the Republic of China wasn't such a contradictory concept, then we could just have one portal. Unfortunately, if we assume the reality of ROC territory (i.e. Taiwan and other islands) that contradicts the ROC government and diplomacy. If we assume the official ROC stance (government of China), it contradicts reality. It's a no-win situation. That's why a non-political "Taiwan" portal was proposed. It can encompass the history of the island and ROC era 1945-present (in Taiwan). However, the ROC era 1912-1945 (in China) does not apply to the portal of Taiwan because that is not part of Taiwan history (Taiwan was a colony of Japan 1895-1945 during ROC era in China). — Nrtm81 15:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree with Nrtm81. Taiwan is a relatively neutral name, whitout any of the political stuff.  =D   Jumping cheese  Contact 21:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Requests for page protection
Chiang Kai-shek, maybe you misunderstood my last message. I was saying if this portal should be moved to "Taiwan Island", you should get the article Taiwan moved to "Taiwan Island" because it links to this portal. There should be consistency. Also, you filed the request under "protection" when it should've been under "unprotection". "All parties" surely doesn't mean just you and me. Other people have voted for the name of this portal and so far the majority supports the current portal name. I've already asked you, if you want more support for your proposal, you should get other people to vote for it. — Nrtm81 13:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Taiwan vs. Taiwan Island
I've made a request on Talk:Taiwan and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China for people to share their opinion on the name of Taiwan and Portal:Taiwan. If we are to rename the portal to "Taiwan Island" then the article should also follow the same name. I have a feeling that people would still prefer to maintain the name "Taiwan" but at least the issue is being made known to a wider audience. — Nrtm81 10:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I put a comment way up there in the "vote" section, which I assumed was still current. If that's not the correct place, let me know so I can (copy/paste) elsewhere. Thanks. Ling.Nut 14:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)