Talk:'Ndrangheta/Archive 1

Potential Mistranslation
In the Characteristics section, giovani d'onore is translated as boys of honor. This seems to be mistranslated. Giovani d'onore would be more "honorable youth" than "honorable boys." Boys of honor would be ragazzi d'onore. Perhaps this is a southern Italy colloquialism, and perhaps I'm splitting too fine a hair; it just seems to me that youth is a better translation. Am I offbase? Jamesfett (talk) 03:51, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Untitled
This article should include that 'Ndrangheta was probably responsible for the kidnapping of Getty III and the assassination of prominent center-left politician Francesco Fortugno.

some errors
you obviously have no idea what the 'ndrangheta is capable of. wow

Although you opinion is certainly guaranteed a voice here, your mis-statement "..ndrangheta....as the most powerful criminal organization in the world", is in fact a quote as referenced below:

According to Italian DIA (Direzione Investigativa Antimafia) 'Ndrangheta is now one of the most powerful criminal organizations in the world.

An intersting article regarind the Ndrangheta is available at http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1792782,00.html

unverified statement
At this point in time 'Ndrangheta preyed only on the rich, which made them popular with the general populace. From this time comes the "mafia culture" of Calabria which celebrates the life of 'Ndranghetistas in songs. Over time, however, the style of 'Ndrangheta has changed a lot. I was unable to find any sources to back this statement up. Therefore I removed the statement. I tried searching my university databases, Yahoo, Ask Jeeves, AllTheWeb, MSN, Lycos, Technorati, Feedster, and Google. All yielded no results. If anyone has any questions about this, and or wants to bring up a discussion about this, feel free to ask me on my user_talk:Eagle 101talk page to join in. I will not be watching this page. —— Eagle 101 (Need help?) 03:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ndràngheta in Germany
According to Jürgen Roth (german author of several books about mafia organisations), the 'Ndràngheta is main actor in the current scandal in Saxony (Germany). Several high ranked politicians, attorneys and police officers seem to belong to a network, which is operating with child pornography, sexual abuse of East European women and illegal building programs

Could someone improve the formulation and fill in? Think it could give an actual image of this organisation. Thanks you.

Reply: Current is when exactly, you do not say, so nobody can search. Politicians are always in such networks. Without convictions, you cannot write about it. Politicians are never ever prosecuted for corruption in Germany, whether it is 'normal' corruption like under Helmut Kohl or close to criminal networks. On very rare occasions one gets caught with tax evasion, and then that may be prosecuted but more likely they are coming to a gentleman agreement without us ever knowing it. If politicians are involved, forget it. 144.136.192.6 (talk) 06:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

En lieu of solid answer: These things are rarely proven so everybody watches their step. From where I sit, the buying of houses is also happening in Berlin. The pattern is to buy a building and then evict all the tennants. Those few who do not go are usually threatened, harrassed through excessive noise, disruption of water supply, or more effective, fires. I know of a person who perished in June 2008 in the first of two de-tennanting fires in Berlin Schoeneberg, Ansbacher Strasse 61. The prosepctus for selling the apartments coughs up surprises. No painting of the outside, dirty, lopsided hanging awnings. Same sq.m. price for all apartments is bizarre if you know the building. No wonder, they haven't sold within four years, may have a good money supply to sustain the whole thing or heaven knows what they harbour. The filename by Bato-Group contains 'inglese'. One cannot go to the police and ask them to raid that building or write about it. There are all the pointers for you know what, but that aint't enough. 144.136.192.6 (talk) 06:34, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Getty's kidnapping
In 1973, Eugene Paul Getty III, seventeen-year-old grandson of one of the richest men in the world, was abducted in Rome. [...] It was all Leggio's work, according to Di Cristina. John Dickie, Cosa Nostra, p. 368.

Dickie's book doesn't say how credible Di Cristina's revelation is considered by authorities and experts. It would be interesting to find sources to know which hypothesis is believed to be the most plausible, the one which lays the blame on Leggio's mafiosi or the one about the 'ndrangheta (or whether a complicity in this crime between the two has ever been hypothesized).--Analytikone 02:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this for real?
http://www.ndrangheta.mobi/Whisper

Need Greek script
Need Greek script for andragathía in the lead. Badagnani (talk) 06:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://droghe.aduc.it/php_artshow_8704.html
 * In Francesco Barbaro (Castanu) on 2011-03-19 11:35:43, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:30, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 22:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. - DonCalo (talk) 08:13, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.sueddeutsche.de/ausland/artikel/572/69503/print.html
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:26, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:05:15, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Solved--Robertiki (talk) 22:45, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Found as http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/reportage-im-schattenreich-der-krake-1.916280 --Robertiki (talk) 22:48, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Dead link 3
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.italymag.co.uk/2006/news-from-italy/current-affairs/mafia-drugs-submarine-seized/
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:39, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:05:28, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Found, link of original at http://www.italymagazine.com/italy/mafia-drugs-submarine-seized --Robertiki (talk) 22:55, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Dead link 4
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/02/11/927898-sun.html
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:30, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:05:36, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 5
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/Story.html?id=119616
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:39, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:05:45, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 6
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.yorku.ca/nathanson/CurrentEvents/2005_Q2.htm#Italian
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:39, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:05:55, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 7
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/69258311/Maffiakillers_zijn_hier.html?p=2,1
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:39, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:06:05, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 8
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24147089-2,00.html
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:39, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:06:16, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 9
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.articolo21.info/rassegne/generale18082007/Art00149.htm
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:39, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:06:26, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 10
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.alternatives.com/crime/italmaf.html
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:39, 404 Not Found
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:06:35, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 11
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://213.251.145.96/cable/2008/12/08NAPLES96.html
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-20 21:16:55, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'
 * In 'Ndrangheta on 2011-05-31 04:07:57, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

NPOV template
The identification of Calabria region as the territory of pertinence of 'Ndrangheta is highly disputable, since the judicial chronicles in Italy clearly show its presence and ramifications in other Central and Northern Italian regions, like Lombardia, Piemonte, etc. Therefore the map is giving a false and distorted information and should have to be updated accordingly.--Ferdinando Scala (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As mentioned in the Sicilian Mafia talk page, I'm not convinced that the NPOV template is properly used here. If there are mistakes in the article, please provide reliable sources so we can work on it together. There is no "disputed" neutrality. ComputerJA (talk)

Greek etymology and edit-war
See here.My last edit provided inter alia a ridiculously long verb form analysis.I've done this not because I think this has a place here (it doesn't!! it should be deleted!!it's ridiculous!!) but because I'm thus stating in dismay the plainly obvious thing to anyone that knows basic Greek.DonCalo's quoted source -have not read it myself- must simply either suck greatly as far Greek etymology-transliteration-orthography-grammar is concerned or deal with such issues very lightly-informaly, not seriously (focusing instead on the topic without any care about the lingustic details).P.S.Btw excluding proper names (i.e. Andragathos), I haven't found anything on andragathos; don't know whether this form is indeed attested or whether it's just an Italian source-author's neologism following e.g. something like kalokagathos; prima facie it seems to me that it isn't attested.But I've chosen to let it be... Thanatos|talk 10:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * OK are there any opposing views? There have been no new edit-reverts or edits.If people find in essense nothing to object to I will remove the ridiculous verb form analysis(let's say tomorrow,let's have some more time).Thanatos|talk
 * Day passed, no comments, no objections, passage removed.Thanatos|talk 05:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

So-called excommunication
I have disputed the accuracy of this article due to the addition of Category:People excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church. As is explained right in this article, this group was not legally the subject of any decree, and the scope of the category demands that such de facto situations arising from off-the-cuff homily remarks by a bishop (in this case, Pope Francis), not be included in the category. Elizium23 (talk) 00:53, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Removed accuracy disputed. To discredit the whole article because of a dispute over a category seems exaggerated. You need to discuss the issue on what the criteria are to include people in the category on the appropriate talk page Category:People excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church, and leave this article out of the dispute. - DonCalo (talk) 06:31, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I have already discussed it exhaustively (an RFC was run) on List of people excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church, where consensus was against inclusion, and chooses to edit-war instead of discussing it. So rather than edit-war here, I have tagged the article. I am restoring the tag. Don't remove it again without fixing the article. Elizium23 (talk) 13:42, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * In point of fact, the RfC was closed with no consensus. As such our standard inclusion policies (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:PRESERVE, etc.) should apply. -- Kendrick7talk 20:37, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The RFC had no consensus to broaden the scope of the article nor narrow the scope of the article. In discussion outside the RFC there was clear consensus to keep the scope of the article as it was, which excludes the 'Ndrangheta case. Elizium23 (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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 * THanks for the effort.~ - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:08, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Recent News
While this topic is very much outside my wheelhouse or typical field of interest, there was a major story of a multinational bust-up of the group reported by CNN today (05/22/2019):


 * Europe Crime Gang Smashed

Use the source as you will. Cheers, - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:11, 22 May 2019 (UTC)


 * It doesn't mention the 'Ndrangheta by name for the bust today, only a previous unrelated bust. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Is this info correct?

 * @Vaselineeeeeeee Please check the recent edits; should that info be included or not?

The Moretti clan is a group of the societa foggiana, and is allied to the ndrangheta and the Camorra, as we can see in this article - https://www.immediato.net/2018/02/06/societa-foggiana-ecco-chi-comanda-ora-scalata-al-potere-dei-moretti-sostenuti-da-camorra-e-ndrangheta-sinesi-in-difficolta/ Peter K Burian (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The IP's source does seem to indicate their alliance. However, the Società Foggiana is also a division of Sacra Corona Unita, who are allies, so then I'm not sure if it's necessary to list them both. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 21:10, 31 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Your call...you are more experienced than me. Cheers, P. Peter K Burian (talk) 22:02, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to leave it, unless anyone else has an objection. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 22:33, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Albanian mafia
Any prove from law enforcement agencies about the "alliance" with the "albanian mafia"? Any thing you know about that organisation? Let's be realistic, there is no such thing! You can go and read even the "albanian mafia" artice and see by yourself that there no really such organisation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.204.17 (talk) 17:54, 4 October 2019 (UTC)


 * You're being very ignorant, admitting not to have read the source and just going off your own original research. Read the source! https://web.archive.org/web/20101117025144/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mafia-war-blamed-for-shooting-of-six-italian-men-in-germany-461761.html <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:00, 4 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Believe me my Canadian "friend", I'm very simple man who want Wikipedia readers to read real things... knowing the British media, its not a source for such things! And knowing Albania and it's culture very well, you can't say that there really such thing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.204.17 (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Supposed pre-1955 use of the word 'Ndrangheta
I have removed the claim that evidence supports the pre-1955 appearance of the word 'Ndrangheta. There is a failure here to understand that the dates assigned to journals and multi-volume works on Google Books do not necessarily correspond with the date of its "snippet view" articles. (1) The citation from Keesing's Contemporary Archives mentions an arrest "in Naples on March 1, 1984." So it is not from 1931. (2) The Enciclopedia italiana di scienze, lettere ed arti citation is taken from the "Quinta appendice" supplementary volume (1979-1992) (as per the Google Books front page photo). So it is not from 1938. (3) The Notes et études documentaires snippet view citation mentions an event which took place in December 1990. So it is not from 1949. 213.205.241.233 (talk) 21:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Should we add this?
''In Italy, the ’Ndrangheta sells cocaine to other crime groups—often Albanian or Nigerian—who in turn sell it on the street. Such outsourcing keeps the ’Ndrangheta away from the piazzas and focused on more sophisticated ways of making money, such as siphoning off European Union funds meant for agriculture and infrastructure. Meanwhile, the fact that foreigners are selling drugs on the street all over Italy is a major factor in the popularity of the right-wing League party and its anti-immigration “Italians First” rhetoric.'' https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/10/italian-mafia-ndrangheta/615466/

The Atlantic '''Can Italy Defeat Its Most Powerful Crime Syndicate? A prosecutor takes hundreds of mobsters to court'''. RACHEL DONADIO OCTOBER 2020 ISSUE Peter K Burian (talk) 18:10, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Baseless claims of monopoly
There's a claim of a 'drug trafficking monopoly' without a source attached. 90.224.238.95 (talk) 09:27, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Monopoly on drug supply
Simply not credible. Many Colombian trafficking organisations are directly involved in running vertically integrated cocaine supply businesses in Europe, while Turkish and Afghan groups have a lot of ongoing heroin dealing. There are also Albanian grouls active in both, and also fashioned British criminals even. 188.172.108.81 (talk) 19:52, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Make this a separate page
This section should be a separate page with only a summary available on this page 138.51.86.138 (talk) 15:00, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Etymology section dubious
The entire section is dubious and probably wrong. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/modern-italy/article/name-ndrangheta-history-versus-etymology/D321AC11A6F21408D8390AF71E20B8EB - 2601:14F:8001:B880:B056:F21:E3E8:438 (talk) 12:29, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I would say that there is a difference between the etymological approach and a historical and sociological one. But good that you pointed this out. ✅ - DonCalo (talk) 13:17, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Multiple issues
This article is currently a disaster. It is full of unconnected claims without any context, based on newspaper articles with little to no scientific backing. I have already removed some claims that are not supported by reliable sources or are blatantly incorrect or irrelevant. It has a very high level of WP:NOR. Actually, the whole article needs to be revised and restructured. That is why I have tagged it with multiple issues. - DonCalo (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Today, I started to re-edit the article and to reshuffle and move sections. A lot still needs to be done, and I will continue when I find the time and energy to do so. - DonCalo (talk) 14:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC)