Talk:Đerzelez Alija

Alija Đerzelez and Ali Bey Mihaloglu

 * folklore and literature of Bosnia and Serbia

It looks that Alija Đerzelez does not exist only in Albanian folklore. There are numerous sources on English (456 Google Books Search hits on English) about Alija Djerzelez part of folklore or literature of Bosnia. The highland lute: (Lahuta e Malcís) : the Albanian national epic Аутор: Gjergj Fishta,Robert Elsie,Janice Mathie-Heck for example explains that he was historical figure who is present in "folk verse in Bosnia".

Marko Kraljević and Đerzelez Alija, Marriage of Dragon Despot Vuk, Porča of Avala and Firedragon Vuk are small sample of numerous Serbian epic songs about Alija Đerzelez.

Ivo Andrić's work "Put Alije Đerzeleza" [The Journey of Alija Đerzelez] is probably the most famous of all literature works about Alija Đerzelez.


 * Ali Bey Mihaloglu

Some historians believed that epic figure of Alija Đerđelez was inspired by Ali Bey Mihaloglu

I think that above mentioned information should be added to this article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Renaming the article
There are:
 * 459 Google Books Search hits on English for Alija Djerzelez
 * 160 google books search hits on English for Gjergj Elez Alia.

Since it is obvious that Alija Djerzelez is "version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language" according to Naming conventions (use English) I will Rename the article to Alija Djerzelez.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:28, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move to new title, it is clear that this article could quite possibly and logically have many different names, all of which would do no harm to WP. The split discussion currently open on this should help resolve naming in the future. Mike Cline (talk) 16:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Gjergj Elez Alia → Alija Djerdjelez Alija Djerzelez –There are:
 * 459 Google Books Search hits on English for Alija Djerzelez
 * 160 google books search hits on English for Gjergj Elez Alia.

Since it is obvious that Alija Djerzelez is "version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language" according to Naming conventions (use English) I propose to rename this page. relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 17:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC) Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment: If we're using Google hits, it doesn't seem so obvious because I don't get the figures you've written when I click your link. I note Gjergj Elez Alija gets 248 results on books and 18 on scholar, whilst Alija Djerzelez gets 357 on books and 22 on scholar. Some of the results are not actually in English despite the parameter being activated, and given that there are various transliterations of either name, I wouldn't rely on Google hits for this.  Night w   16:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe the search should be narrowed to specific sites too as the general results are inconclusive. .edu sites (pdf files): 2 Gjergj Elez Alia(3 without the filetype:pdf parameter) 0 Alija Djerdjelez (1 without the filetype:pdf parameter)-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Nightw. I do get the figures I've written. You made mistake Nightw and searched for Gjergj Elez Alija instead for Gjergj Elez Alia which has only 152 hits compared to 357 hits of Alija Djer dj zelez (when used with subtraction of wiki and llc).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Some aren't English sources that use that term, but English-language sources that mention a Slavic-language book, whose title contains the term. Isn't Gjergj Elez Alija another form of Gjergj Elez Alia?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Some aren't English sources in case of Gjergj version also, but English-language sources that mention an Albanian language poem, whose title contains the term. The name of this person has many versions, but it is obvious that Alija Djerzelez is "version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And I'm saying it isn't obvious. Especially not from Google hits. When I click your links, I get 247 hits (not the 459 that you claim) with Serbian and Croatian results on the first page. My spelling was deliberate, as searching Alija in Google brings up Alia as a variant, but not the other way around. Please provide some other evidence, as search engine is clearly not the right method here.  Night w   01:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your explanation. When I click the links I provided I always get around 460 hits. What other evidence, besides search engine, it is possible to use in such cases?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Drop some names. Literary scholars, historians—what name do the majority of experts on the subject use?  Night w   12:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the advice. I will try to drop some names, but it may take some time (maybe a couple of weeks or so) to prepare arguments for both existing and proposed version.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:12, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay. Note that I'm not watching this page, so feel free to drop me a message on my talk page when you're done.  Night w   04:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Neither title is English nor does either of them seem particularly popular in English sources - perhaps the scale tips in favor of the Bosnian variant in a most straightforward manner by the fact a Nobel laureate Ivo Andrić used that spelling in a title. Is the topic covered by another encyclopedia perhaps, and if so, which one did they pick? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 14:06, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ivo Andric was a south Slav, so the south Slavic form used by him indicates as much notability for the term as the use of Gjergj Elez Alia by Stavro Skendi, Martin Camaj or even Ismail Kadare. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Support: This person is legendary hero of South Slavic and Albanian poetry and literature. Version of his name used by scholars and experts in English language works depends on the language of epics and literature they describe. When they present poetry and literature written on some South Slavic language (dozens of epic songs and famous works written by Nobel Prize winner Ivo Andrić) they most often use Djerzelez version. When they describe a poem written on Albanian language they most often use Gjergj Elez version. Stavro Skendi and Robert Elsie mention both when they explain that Gjerg Elez is Albanian translation of transmitted Djerzelez. The South Slavic epics and literature about him chronologically precedes and outnumbers Albanian. Therefore it is logical that numerous South Slavic epics and literature about Djerzelez has been more studied then Albanian epic song which belongs to less-known culture and rarely studied language (Robert Elsie : "As the product of a little-known culture and a difficult, rarely studied language, the Albanian epics has tended to remain in shadow of the Serbo-Croatian, or more properly, the Bosnian epics,... "). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Gjergj
I see here 480 entries using "Gjergj Elez Alia", greater than 473 for Alija Djerzelez. Majuru (talk) 14:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 130 on English --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Use Google English please. Majuru (talk) 14:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Same result.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You mean like this one, who uses them both?Majuru (talk) 19:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

There, Gjergj.... The problem is that Gjergj Elez Alia and Djerdjelez are different figures, not interchangeable; the Albanian epic and the Bosnian one are similar, but not the same. Majuru (talk) 20:04, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * When you search only English language works you get 297 hits for "Gjergj Elez" and 871 hits for "Djerzelez". We should focus on "other evidence, besides search engine" like suggested by Night W.
 * I think that sources about this legendary hero explain that Djerzelez and Gjergj Elez are inseparable two sides of the same coin whose story has logical continuous chronology. South Slavic Muslims from Bosnian Krajina modeled the poetic image of Djerzelez Alija after the image of Christian Prince Marko Kraljević, based on the historic person Ali Bey Mihaloğlu. Songs about Djerzelez Alija were transmitted by bilingual singers from South Slavic milieu to Albanian milieu where Djerzelez Alija was renamed to Gjergj Elez Alia. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Admin comment - editors participating in this discussion should please indicate whether or not they Oppose or Support the requested move. Thanks --Mike Cline (talk) 17:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose, favorable to a split of the article, and removal of all Bosnian related material for a new page. The Albanian Gjergj Elez Alia fights against the Bajloz (the Venetian bailo of early 13 century Byzantium), related to the latter's demands of "paying a certain tax for every chimney", that is, household, and of course his sister. His name can be rendered as George Ilyas Ali, betraying a layer related to the Islamization of the Balkan peoples in the fifteenth century.Majuru (talk) 19:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

George
This Gjergj vs. Djerzelez (a legendary, mythological figure, by the way) discussion, is pointless, resembling "Santa Claus vs. Père Noël". Each cycle has its own heroes, who resemble, but are not the same persons. Majuru (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Request for move (again)
There are significantly more hits reported for the Bosnian spelling at Google Books. The purported discrepancy in regard to the previous request is beyond me, but if necessary screenshots may be used for verification? At the end of the day this epic hero originated in Bosnia, with use of the Albanian rendering over the native Bosnian one being rather absurd. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ ( TALK ) 22:55, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If you are able to present policy and guideline arguments for your position feel free to propose renaming. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:50, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Evaluation of Gbooks hits (-llc -wikipedia):--Z oupan 12:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Đerzelez Alija - 239 hits (+92 Cyrillic = 329 hits)
 * "Đerzelez Alija" - 66, "Djerzelez Alija" - 56; = 122 hits
 * "Ђерзелез Алија" - 58
 * "Alija Đerzelez" - 41, "Alija Djerzelez" - 76; = 117 hits
 * "Алија Ђерзелез" - 34


 * Đerđelez Alija - 90 hits (+49 Cyrillic = 109 hits)
 * "Đerđelez Alija" - 29, "Djerdjelez Alija" - 45; = 74 hits
 * "Ђерђелез Алија" - 44
 * "Alija Đerđelez" - 1, "Alija Djerdjelez" - 15; 16 hits
 * "Алија Ђерђелез" - 5


 * Gjergj Elez Alia - 89 hits
 * "Gjergj Elez Alia" - 68
 * "Gjergj Elez Ali" - 20
 * "Đerđ Elez Alija" - 1


 * Gerzelez Alija - 28 hits
 * "Gerzelez Alija" - 22
 * "Alija Gerzelez" - 6

The evaluation shows that the most appropriate article name is Đerzelez Alija or Djerzelez Alija (note that the latter is the spelling of the former without the diacritic bar).--Z oupan 12:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Google hits are not the most important arguments here. I wrote detailed explanation (diff) with non-Google arguments which nobody refuted, as far as I know.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:58, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Undue weight, offtopic, original research
As already explained, the opinion added in the lead section is WP:UNDUE, and it contrasts the article's content as well because in the body it is stated that "" As for the other controversial addition, it is WP:OFFTOPIC and WP:OR because the source doesn't mention the Albanian song of Gjergj Elez Alia, which is only one and unrelated to the South Slavic songs. As for the transmission of songs, which is a controversial topic unrelated to this article, don't rely on the old opinions of Robert Elsie, which are based on early 20th century research. Rely on the publications of ethnomusicologist and anthropologist Nicola Scaldaferri, as well as Anton Berisha, and Zymer Ujkan Neziri, who have made extensive research on Albanian epic poetry in the last decades. – Βατο (talk) 09:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Gjergj Elez Alia
Judging how the 2 mythical figures the albanian and bosnian one have nothing in common in their legends except the name kinda similiar we may split them and create another article about Gjergj Elez Alia. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 13:47, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. The Albanian song of Gjergj Elez Alia has nothing to do with South Slavic songs. Only the name of the legendary character is somehow in common, inspired by Turkish Gürz Ilyas, but undergoing a construction as a tripartite-compound name with the Albanian rendering of the name George (Gjergj), attaching the names Elez and Alia . – Βατο (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well if you're keen on splitting it then why not create your own article. Keep in the facts about the transmission and his basis on Prince Marko, but make it clear that he's a different character in Albanian epic poetry if you're not gonna split it. Rijekaneretva (talk) 17:58, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Problem with accepting that Đerzelez Alija was transferred from Bosnia to Albania
It would seem that it is a problem for some here to even mention the fact that the story of Đerzelez Alija was transferred by bilingual speakers from Bosnia to Albania. Straight up removal of sourced content. One can't remove sourced and factually correct content, and then just label it "controversial" or "offtopic" to justify the removal. Not only is it not controversial, but it's definitely not offtopic.

I suggest we keep the mention of the transfer from Bosnia to Albanian speaking regions, clarify that Bosniaks modeled him after Prince Marko, and clarify that Đerzelez in Albanian epic poetry might not be modeled after Prince Marko or even be a similar character, just name sharing.

Interested in hearing what others propose. Rijekaneretva (talk) 13:56, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Which source mentions the transfer? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 21:34, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No source mentions this specific transfer. This character was not transferred from Bosnia to Albania, he was a muslim heroic figure to both Bosnian-speakers and Albanian-speakers in the Ottoman Empire, in a multi-lingual environment, as his name indicates. He is believed to have been inspired by the 15th century Ottoman military commander Gürz Ilyas. Regarded in both Bosnian and Albanian traditions as a muslim hero, he has nothing to do with the Christian Prince Marko. That's an Wp:extraordinary opinion that User:Rijekaneretva wants to add into the lead section with WP:undue weight. As for the songs and the stories, they are variable and created in different historical and geographical contexts. That's a complex issue that can't be oversimplified in statements like those proposed by User:Rijekaneretva. – Βατο (talk) 22:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:Neutral point of view
 * Be serious. Rijekaneretva (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Albanologist Robert Elsie mentions in his "Songs of the Frontier Warriors" from 2004
 * " it would seem evident that we are dealing with the body of oral material which, probably after centuries of evolution, cristallized in South Slavic milieu and which was transmitted by bilingual singers to Albanian milieu."
 * Albanian Linguist Stavro Skëndi mentions in his 1954 book "Albanian and South Slavic oral epic poetry" page 185
 * A similar example is Djerzelez Alija or Gerzelez Alija of the Bosnian songs — the blood-brother of Kraljević Marko — which in Albanian had become Gjergj Elez Alia. It becomes more apparent that we have to deal here with a loan from the Serbian heroic songs,...
 * The transfer needs to be mentioned in the page as it's only a addition and a sourced one at that. It was on the Wiki page until Bato a few months ago decided that this exact information was "controversial and offtopic" it's neither one of those.
 * It is also painfully obvious why one is removing these facts from the very first place, but let's not mention it now.
 * I suggest we keep it in, and if you want you can explicitly mention that the figure and character opf Gjergj Elez Ali is not the same as the one in Bosniak South Slavic tradition, which is based on Prince Marko. Rijekaneretva (talk) 07:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I've also seen Bato mention transfer of of poetry from Albanians to Bosniaks on the Bosniak Epic Poetry and Kange Kreshnikesh pages, he doesn't seem to have a problem with the idea of a transfer between South Slavs and Albanians as long as it's presented as Bosniaks taking and Albanians being taken from. Rijekaneretva (talk) 11:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Still i dont think there is a clear source that mentions the transfer. Usually as it is with folk songs knowing the closeness between Bosnians Serbs and Croatians, i dont see Gjergj Elez Alia on any other Slavic folklore other than in the Bosnian one. The only thing that we know about Gurg Ilyas is that he appeared on Ottoman Registers as a Landowner and renowned in 1455. (And the land exactly is not mentioned) Other than that we dont know anything so judging how EVERYTHING is different from the Albanian and Bosnian lores my guess its that both of mythological stories evolved separately. The Albanian one fought against the Bailos (thought to be Venetian Baili (diplomat/ambasador) while the Bosnian one was also religious muslim (there is nothing religiously in the Albanian one). So since its controversial i suggest to keep out of the articles both Bosnian-Albanian transfer and vice versa. And to create another article about Gjergj Elez Alia. After all its mythology one example being the role of the "trickster" being in native american, norse, african mythologies despite none of them transfered it to the other. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 13:28, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I did not, there it is stated that Albanian bilingual singers were able to translate songs from Albanian into Bosnian. As for the transferring of this particular character, your request is controversial POV pushing. Skendi is outdated (70 years old publications). I can find recent scholarly publications that state the opposite, i.e. that the transfer of Gjergj Elez Alia occurred from Albanian into Bosnian. But I think the addition of these controversial topics would decrease the quality of the article. It is better to mention only that the figure subject of this article is inspired by Ottoman Turkish figure Gürz Ilyas, leaving the controversial dispute about who transferred it to whom outside the article, and considering it, as present-day scholarship suggest: as a muslim hero who emerged in a multi-lingual environment, evolving separately in the different traditions. If you insist in adding sholars that support the transfer from Bosnian-speakers to Albanian-speakers, I'll add reliable sources about the transfer from Albanian-speakers to Bosnian-speakers, as per WP:NPOV. – Βατο (talk) 22:38, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, and how did the character of Đerzelez transfer between Krajina and Malezi? By bilingual singers. You're mentioning on other pages exactly what you don't want me to mention here, even on the Bosniak epic poetry page where the ethnic background of the singers from Novi Pazar is not relevant.
 * How can you be the one here that decides what source is reliable and what isn't? I have Skendi and Robert Elsie and you have a newly published book in Albanian. Rijekaneretva (talk) 06:50, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I did not decide what source is reliable and what isn't. Elsie is reliable, but the wording you added is not neutral and not supported by the source, because Elsie does not directly mention the subject of this article in that statement, which btw is based on 20th century old suggestions. I added another source with a neutral wording that directly discusses the subject of this article. Regarding Skendi, as per WP:AGEMATTERS it is an outdated source (70 years old!). The conjectures he put forward have been contested by several scholars, Albanian as well as foreign like Agniya Desnitskaya and hu:Schütz István. Much research on Albanian epics has been carried out in the last years, and the most recent and complete monograph on this subject has been published by Harvard University in 2021, with the contribution of several top notch scholars on oral epics:
 * I suggest to read it, so you can have an idea about what has been reached in new research. Skendi's outdated mid-20th century speculations should be avoided. Anyway, in the case of Gjergj Elez Alia, this dispute is unrelated because the Albanian legend tells about Baloz, which is inspired by the Venetian rule. While the relationship brother-sister that features in the Albanian song of Gjergj Elez Alia is a typical Albanian motif. So the wording you added into the lead section is obviously erroneous. – Βατο (talk) 10:42, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Checked out the Harvard one, haven't seen any mention of Gjerg Elez Alia, mind showing me exactly where he is mentioned? If anything the Harvard study goes against you, since it mentions Mujo and Halil Hrnjica (Muji and Halil) which were confirmed historical figures in the Krajina region. It is absolutely impossible for these two not to have been transmitted from Bosnia to Malesia. Unlike Gjergjelez in Albanian Epic Poetry, from what i've been able to read the story of Muji retains his sisters name "Ajkuna" as it does in Bosnian, the brothers and connection with fairies are strong. Jutbina (Udbina) is mentioned. He is called "Gjetobasho Muji" which is just a adaptation to "Četobaša Mujo" a četa is a platoon or squad in Slavic. Other clear Bosnian influences are Budalina Tale (Tale the Fool) which is a Slavic name that's been retained, and a historical person from modern day Croatian Krajina. Alija Sirotan (Alija the poor) is also mentioned, another Slavic name retained.
 * Look man i don't have a problem with nationalism and accepting that we've influenced eachother, which is why i left your edit on Bosniak Epic poetry page. I beg you to be neutral here and see this for what it is, i changed the text where i mentioned that Gjergjelez is a completely different character in Albanian epic poetry. Again, i suggest we mention the transfer from Krajina to Albania, which seriously is a fact. Keep in the part where i mention that he's a different character and add extra to it yourself if you want to. Rijekaneretva (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The Harvard publication is about Albanian epic poetry, the thing that Elsie is discussing in the passage you added to support your claims despite the fact that he does not mention Gjergj Elez Alia. How worked Albanian bilingual singers recorded by Parry and Lord has nothing to do with this discussion. The article already states in both lede and body that ". That's enough. The orignal hero was a Turkish figure, not Bosniak. And thereafter the different traditions have adopted it according to their needs as stated into the article, with the Albanian hero bearing a typical Albanian name, Gjergj. Your request is mere POV pushing, and the wording, which is clearly erroneous as already pointed out, can't be included. – Βατο (talk) 13:00, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Elsie is discussing kange kreshnikesh, which Gjergjelez is a part of. You've also constantly been changing your opinion of Elsie, in another topic on the 12thmay you said "don't rely on the old opinions of Robert Elsie, which are based on early 20th century research." Just a few hours ago you wrote "I did not decide what source is reliable and what isn't. Elsie is reliable," now you're going on how about Elsie doesn't explicitly mention Gjerzelez.
 * I'm mentioning your edit on Bosniak epic poetry and Kange Kreshnikesh because while you're removing my mention of bilingualism on this page you're at the same time mentioning this same thing on those pages, just in a reverted scenario where the Bosniaks are the ones receiving it from the Albanians.
 * A day ago the mention of bilingualism was "controversial" and "offtopic" while now you're calling it "erroneous".
 * I mention Mujo, Halil and other Bosnian loans to further my point. You purposefully ignore it and then start telling me about my "explicit denial of the Albanian tradition". I read the Harvard publication and asked you to point me to Gjergjelez.
 * Not a single ounce of consistency in any of your answers, constantly changing. Seems that the transfer of mythology is possible, looking at your edits from 2 days ago on Kange Kreshnikesh and Bosniak epic poetry. But it's not possible here.
 * I'll open a RfC soon. Rijekaneretva (talk) 14:23, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * With your comment about Albanian Mujo and Halili cycle (which remains offtopic), you are explicitly denying the Albanian tradition (Besa above all, which is the cornerstone of Albanianess). You have not read the Harvard publication, or at least you could have read it but deny what the authors put forward. I am not continuing this discussion, which is leading nowhere. If you want to include erroneous POV content like, seek consensus opening a WP:RfC. – Βατο (talk) 13:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * With your comment about Albanian Mujo and Halili cycle (which remains offtopic), you are explicitly denying the Albanian tradition (Besa above all, which is the cornerstone of Albanianess). You have not read the Harvard publication, or at least you could have read it but deny what the authors put forward. I am not continuing this discussion, which is leading nowhere. If you want to include erroneous POV content like, seek consensus opening a WP:RfC. – Βατο (talk) 13:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)