Talk:11.22.63

Casting section
Recently I removed the "Casting" section from the article. It was restored by an editor who referred to my removal as "section blanking". But the entire section reads: "James Franco was chosen to star as the character of Jake Epping, and Sarah Gadon was cast for the role of Sadie Dunhill." All of that information already is reported in the "Cast and characters" section, the Infobox, and the "Premise" section. Repeating the same information for a fourth time in the article is quite redundant. If someone had information about why they were cast or how they were cast then the section would be valid, but as it stands it is pointless to include a completely redundant section. 99.192.89.121 (talk) 13:55, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree that it is entirely redundant with other parts of the article. If it had more details it might deserve a separate section. But might have a more specific explanation. Don't restore before he/she has a chance to respond. Sundayclose (talk) 14:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, I did a little googling to see if there were easy answers to my questions about the how and why of their casting and found some good information, so I am going to add that to the section now to make it more than just redundant. Thanks for the input. 99.192.89.121 (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

"obdurate"
One episode plot summary includes this sentence: "Jake and Sadie struggle against the obdurate past on their way to the final confrontation with Oswald." I removed the word "obdurate" because it is a quite obscure word that does not aid in clear communication and does not really help explain the plot. In fact, the past can only be obdurate metaphorically, not literally, as "the past" is not a sentient being with a will and motives, and to be obdurate one needs to have both of these qualities. So the word is obscure, not literally true, and entirely unnecessary to communicating what happened in the episode. Saying that they "struggle against the past" is more clear and conveys the necessary information. 99.192.89.121 (talk) 14:03, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

For the record: cast list of episode 1
Since this edit was reverted with the following edit summary: "", the entire cast list of episode 1 is reproduced below as confirmation that there was no error:
 * in end credits of episode 1

&mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 07:03, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I was indicating the formatting, not the cast itself, but I see that the formatting was intentional anyways. Firstly, the consensus of WP:TV is that we don't include cast lists in episode summaries. Secondly, adding consecutive non-breakable spaces in such a manner is simply terrible coding. --  Alex TW 09:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I examined WP:TV as well as WP:TVCAST, but could not find specific consensus regarding inclusion or exclusion of cast lists in episode summaries. Perhaps a link to such a consensus could be supplied. As for the use of non-breakable spaces, if there is an objection to those, another form, such as names separated by commas, can be easily substituted.
 * Each episode of 11.22.63 has a different "Starring" list in the opening credits and a different "Guest Starring" list in the closing credits, thus the cast list currently featured in the infobox represents the "Starring" list in episode 1, but no other episode.
 * Taking into account the varying casts of individual episodes, each should have its own "Starring" list and its own "Guest starring" list. What is currently listed under section header "Cast and characters" is an out-of-order (other than for top-billed James Franco) jumble of names which does not represent the on-screen credit order and intersperses "Starring" and "Guest Staring" roles without any regard for billing as it appears in the credits of individual episodes.
 * As an example of the need for additional attention, the Marsha Mason link (final name under "Recurring and guest") currently flows to the American actress, since the Canadian actress who actually appears in 11.22.63 does not, as yet, have a Wikipedia entry. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 10:29, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Links are certainly available; the archives of the discussions held at the WikiProject and MOS are entirely at your disposal. Given these past discussions, neither non-breakable nor commas are required.
 * The consensus is to also list the credits as they appeared in the first episode, then append newly credited cast in further episodes to the end of that first list. No separate between Starring and Guest Starring is made - either they appear in the opening credits, and are main cast, or appear in the end credits, and are thus recurring or guest (depending on the number of appearances).
 * Be bold - fix the errors yourself. --  Alex TW 10:45, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As far as MOS and WikiProjects are concerned, it is helpful when specific quotes are brought up to bolster arguments. In examining WP:TV, we see various guidelines which are, for lack of a better word, codified, and can be easily found and quoted. In WP:RM discussions, certain moves are used as precedents to support similar moves.
 * I have no doubt that weeks, months or years ago, discussions were held on these topics and a few or several participants agreed upon certain matters, but unless such agreements translate into quotable enhancements or revisions of guidelines, then the purported consensus may well be simply another discussion that reflected the pro and con views of some Wikipedians.
 * As for the matter at hand, there certainly is a need for improvement in relation to the credits --- under "Main", other than James Franco, the five remaining names are not listed in order of billing, nor is there any indication as to how those names came to be chosen as "Main", while other names appear under "Recurring and guest" and still other names are not listed at all. The choice of names and the order in which they appear would seem to be WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH, since such choice and order are not reflected in on-screen credits.
 * Acting upon your WP:BE BOLD suggestion, I will create a separate page entitled 11.22.63 cast list which will include, in on-screen order, all the cast names listed in the opening and closing credits of each of the eight episodes, thus providing a detailed list of all credited cast members and the characters they portray as well as, under a separate section header "Appearances in two or more episodes", the frequency of their participation in the entire miniseries.
 * Since, over the past two years, you made a number of edits to the article and its talk page, you're certainly welcome to make improvements to this upcoming list or to nominate it for deletion if you feel its existence would be duplicative and/or unnecessary. When completed, the definitive cast list can serve to improve the coverage of credits within the main article. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:46, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, WP:TVCAST was recently updated as part of the MOS:TV overhaul through a mass discussion of anyone who wished to be involved, so no, it wasn't a case just a few editors making their own decision on the topic.
 * As long as the credits reflect that which is shown in the first episode, and then newly credited cast are appended to this list, then the guideline has been adhered to. I believe that I also explained that the difference between main, recurring and guest cast are, and that is that main are credited at the beginning of the series, or by reliable sources, and recurring and guest are credited at the end of the episodes. Recurring is also having an appearance in three or more episodes; guest is two or less.
 * The correct title of that article would be List of 11.22.63 cast, and a create of such an article would be supported by if there was a definite need to separate this article, and if there are sufficient sources and content to support it. I would recommend starting a discussion at WP:TV and creating the article in the draft space, and seeing if there is support for the article. However, I highly doubt that a consensus would be formed to create it, given that this is only a miniseries of nine episodes. Cast and character articles are normally only created for series with a larger number of seasons. --  Alex TW 21:06, 26 November 2017 (UTC)