Talk:1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight/Archive 3

Neutrality of this article is disputed
Some editors consider this article to be biased towards the Arab point of view because:


 * The fact that many Jews fled Arab countries during establishment of Israel is not mentioned.
 * Proposed compensation for the Palestinian refugees is not mentioned.
 * Israel's own argumentation for not allowing refugees to return is not mentioned.
 * Opinions (as opposed to facts) of pro-Arab historians and politicians such as Hanan Ashrawi are given undue weight, while persons with pro-Israeli views such as David Ben Gurion are presented unfairly.

A majority of people contributing to this article consider it to be neutral, and oppose changing the article.


 * FWIW, it seems to me that contributors to this article try so hard not to be (or appear to be) biased that information value of the article suffers. --bonzi 09:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem with this article is that it's not been taken over so disgracefully as has the (nearly equivalent) Palestinian refugee. But it's clearly been deteriorating steadily, with great swathes of pure propaganda now being injected.

I don't understand why Wikipedia allows this denial, and the humiliating treatment of the national catastrophe of the Palestinians.

PalestineRemembered 18:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

How about the claim that Jordan told the Palestinians to get out of their homes so that they could push all the Jews into the sea and steal all their land? Both sides press NPOV Valley2city 03:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Shmuel Katz
I would appreciate comments on whether a book written by the propaganda chief of one terrorist group (the Irgun) and distributed by another, the JDL qualifies as a reliable source. That book is Battleground: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine by Shmuel Katz. Ofira Seliktar writes:


 * Operating under the slogan "Never again" JDL supported the Greater Land of Israel, a policy which, in its view, mandated the expulsion of the Palestinians from the territories. To bolster its claims, the JDL distributed a book, Battleground: Facts and Fantasy in Palestine, penned by Shmuel Katz, the propaganda chief of the Irgun and a close friend of Begin. Katz contended that the Palestinians were recent arrivals in the land of Israel and did not deserve self-determination.


 * Katz, who became a leader in the Land of Israel Movement, a maximalist Israeli organization, helped to create in 1971 the Americans for a Safe Israel (AFSI). AFSI's self-described goal was to persuade American Jews to reject the land-for-peace formula of Labour in favor of the peace-for-peace model favored by the Israeli right wing. AFSI, which initially functioned as a think tank, generated a large amount of material devoted to establishing Israel's legitimacy in the West Bank, Gaza, and the Sinai Desert... AFSI gained a higher profile in the Jewish community when a number of mainstream organizations such as AIPAC and NJCRAC decided to distribute its pamphlets, along with Katz's Battleground. (Seliktar, Ofira (2002). Divided We Stand: American Jews, Israel, and the Peace Process. Praeger/Greenwood. ISBN 0275974081, p. 39).

With reference to Joan Peters' use of Battleground in her discredited book From Time Immemorial, Norman Finkelstein comments:


 * ..twenty-one [references] to Samuel Katz's Battleground: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, etc., etc., These 'sources' have the combined scholarly weight of a classic comic book. (Finkelstein, Norman (1995). Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict. Verso,. ISBN 1859843395, p. 219).

In view of the above I believe that anything 'sourced' to Battleground should be re-sourced to publications that satisfy WP:RS, WP:V and WP:NOT. Comments welcome. --Ian Pitchford 09:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've also asked for guidance on this matter, and challenged the admirers of Katz to provide any indication he's anything more than a propagandist (as he was in 1948, employed by Irgun to gloss over their multiple racist and near-terrorist crimes).
 * Needless to say, I've had no sensible response. The more I see from Katz the more I think he should not counted as WP:RS.
 * PalestineRemembered 16:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Shmuel Katz is one of the most respected writers and historians and an expert on the Israeli  Arab conflict.

The fact that Katz was in the Irgun, or the fact that he's on the right wing side of the map is of no consequence.

If Katz is not a good source, then all Benny Morris quotes should be deleted from wikipedia as well. Benny Morris is a notorious left wing analyst, who is involved in politicfs, and his works were also ruled as lies in the court of law. Yet Benny Morris is cited in wikipedia all the time.

Shmuel Katz however is a known biographer and historian. You can find his references in "google scholar" or anywhere else. He's a source in universites and schools around the world. The fact you don't like his research for political reason, although he cites all his references, for example you can see the same quote in Al Urdun newspaper, is simply your POV problem. Do not try to instigate lies. Amoruso 09:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You would do well to at least try to mitigate your obvious bias, when appealing to comments. Katz's books are available on Amazon.com, and many other outlets. They were published by mainstream US publishers such as Bantam and Doubleday. To describe this as "distributed by a terrorist group" is not only POV, but dishonest poisoning the well. Finkelstein's assertions are just that- assertions by, to use your colorful language, a propagandist. I am all for using WP:RS - the quotes from Battleground should be sourced directly to that book, which is clearly as much a WP:RS as Finkelstein's screed. Isarig 09:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Katz has no relevant qualifications at all. Seliktar and Finkesltein do. Perhaps you'd like to see the article on the history of Israel re-written according to the works of Yasser Arafat? --Ian Pitchford 09:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that an active member in the Irgun, writing based on his personal experience, who is also a prolific author and historian, is somewhat more qualified to comment on the events than a professor of poli-sci, who is mostly known as a propagandistic hate monger. I am not opposed to having Araft's views, properly cited, appear on various Israeli articles - that is the essence of NPOV. I wonder why you will not allow similar balance on this issue. Isarig 09:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, opinion can be cited as such, but we don't use propaganda from terrorist organizations as the basis for factual claims. Why should we use dubious sources when there are plenty of good history books written by trained scholars? --Ian Pitchford 10:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ian, you're grasping at straws and you're sounding quite ridicolous. There's nothing dubious about Katz's work like Isarig explained to you. Amoruso 10:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Please abide by WP:NPA and cite evidence in support of your claim that Katz is a reliable source. --Ian Pitchford 10:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This has already been done. You have already been warned for your consistent POV hunts by Zeq in the past. Nobody will take your attempt to discredit Shmuel Katz any seriously. See Isirag above. Stop wasting everyone's time. Amoruso 11:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Isarig - your claim that Benny Morris is a "propagandistic hate monger" looks very much like a revisionist slur (as would not be permitted in an article under WP:BLP, and might serve as a commentary on your fitness for NPOV).
 * And it's difficult to accept there are any grounds for your accustation whatsoever - Benny Morris is a historian (unlike Katz) and has produced several scholarly and well-researched books on the subject of the early years of Israel. Furthermore, he's not "of a Palestinian POV", he's an open supporter of the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1948, and would support it "within 5 or 10 years" under circumstances he can foresee.
 * PalestineRemembered 16:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

here's a random editorial review on Shmuel Katz :

Editorial Reviews From Library Journal Historian and journalist Katz has written a lengthy and detailed life of Jabotinsky (1880-1940), an outstanding and controversial figure in the Zionist movement of the 1920s and 1930s. He was a leader of Revisionism, which opposed the policies of the mainstream Zionist group led by Chaim Weitzman and David Ben-Gurion, later to become president and prime minister, respectively, of the state of Israel. Jabotinsky was also a prolific journalist, novelist, poet, and linguist, and Katz treats these aspects of Jabotinsky's work fully. This attempt at completeness often obscures the main thrust of Jabotinsky's efforts?the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. Although Katz avows a determination to be fair to Jabotinsky's contemporary critics and opponents, this is clearly the work of an ardent admirer. Recommended for academic libraries with large collections on Zionism and the state of Israel.?Harry Frumerman, formerly with Hunter Coll., CUNY Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1569800421/002-4808670-4079245?v=glance&n=283155

100% Very legitimate.

Amoruso 09:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So Katz is an admirer of Jabotinsky .......... all we need to know. Here is Vladimir Jabotinsky in his book "The Iron Wall", 1923: "A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else - or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! ... Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important ... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonizing". :PalestineRemembered 20:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

New to Wikipedia, I find this thread, and many others on this site related to the topic of Palestine and Israel, to be unbelievable! Mr. Katz is by any practical standard a biased, unobjective source for such hotly contested information, just as other extremists such as Arafat would be.

Let me say I am not Jewish, I am not Muslim, and I am not an Arab. I am an American born of Irish origins and do not have strong political views on the subject of Arab-Israeli relations one way or another. But with the exception of Ian, other contributors here appear to be using Wikipedia as a port for channeling their political biases. For this website to maintain any level of objective credibility, Amorouso, Isarig, Jayjig, and Zeq should have no business acting as contributors to this particular topic. Instead, they need to take Journalism 101, and please do so at a truly secular university.

JEM8 23:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know much about Katz - but I quickly found that he'd claimed the Palestinians left because they were ordered to by their "community leaders". It doesn't seem to be true - and would be completely irrelevant anyway. Those people have an absolute legal and moral right to return to their homes. PalestineRemembered 20:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

For Palestineremembered, any Zionist is not a good source. Katz is a Zionist yes, but he's still a respected historian. Jabotinsky is admired by more than 50% of the country's population including the mainstream kadima and Prime Minster Olmert. He's the leading figure behind the modern Likud who recently split to Kadima. Israelis are likely to be either right wing or left wing. Some people only want to cite left wing historians like post zionist or anti zionist people. That shows their bias, not others. Katz has all the credentials and respect and notability. The evidence of google scholar has been provided many many times by now. Amoruso 22:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing sources
Please note WP:CITE. You are not supposed to copy material from hidden places that cites sources you have not looked at. You have to identify your source for the material. --Zerotalk 12:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * that's my source. I have papers in the library, looked it up in arabic. and do not delete Shmuel Katz who is a reliable source. Amoruso 13:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

master plan theory
this whole section should be removed and deleted. Khalidi is not a credible source, since he's a propogandist of palestinian agenda and his lies have been exposed throughout the years by established scholars. Ilan Pape has also been condemned by its own university, not received the proffessor status, and he's discredited. This theory therefore has no reliable references. Amoruso 13:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you have have a credible source that has discredited Khalidi? I don't know, I'm just wondering.... Ramallite (talk) 16:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Walid Khalidi is an eminent spokesman for the PLO. I don't see why it's ok to quote Morris and Khalidi and such and suddently it becomes POV and wrong to quote scholars that support different views. I find it strange. Yes, Khalidi is cited as very credible in Palestinian sites or Jews against Occupation sites. And Katz is cited as very credibe in Jewish sites or Pro-Jewish Christian sites and so on. That's how things are. Everyone should learn to respect both sides and for this reason there are different theories in the article for everyone to read and discuss. I see no reason and it it highly offensive that certain parts of the article are being attacked fervently simply because people don't agree with them politically. Amoruso 20:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The disputed section (including the collection of 'quotes')
This is garbage. That is not to mean that the actual content is garbage (that is another debate), but its bulk inclusion (with pretty much one freerepublic.com source) into an encyclopedia so offensively and preposterously is garbage, and for the following reasons:
 * If people insist on taking one extreme right-wing (and not very reputable) source and adding a disproportionate amount of information from it into a WP article just to help propagate one specific (and perhaps absurd) point of view, that is against WP:NPOV. There are many pieces on the internet of equal or even greater verifiability that would similarly bash and dehumanize the Israeli side. Should we include that as well and end up having one huge bullshit-fest of an article? The point trying to be made DOES NOT NEED such a huge disgraceful insertion. If you want to do that, there are many hate blogs that exist for that purpose.
 * Much of the section is verbatim lifted and inserted from copyrighted material, which is against policy. These will be removed if not addressed.
 * According to WP:V, at least as I understand it, the ORIGINAL source must be verifiable. All the sources are taken from the reference list at the bottom of this freerepublic.com article, with no way to verify authenticity.
 * Most of these series of quotations are NOT from Palestinian or Israeli sources, but from other 'Arabs' of no notability who happen to have an opinion. If they are not Palestinian or Israeli, they should have no business in an article on the Palestinian exodus.
 * One last musing: Since some appear to really want to push this absurd theory that 'Arabs left at their own free will' or even 'at the behest of their leaders (hint: neighbouring Arab state kings were NOT the leaders of the Palestinians), I guess the overflowing Arabs of Nazareth, or perhaps even the lebanese refugees, should flood into Kiryat Shmona's empty houses right now because, hey, after all, the occupants "left at their own free will". They were sitting on their couches watching TV and clipping their toenails and then thought, hey, wouldn't it be great to get up and leave the city? Or maybe, wait, didn't the Israeli government provide funds and transportation for them to leave? There we have it then, even their 'leaders' encouraged them to leave. I say finders keepers in Kiryat Shmona. Apparently, according to the freerepublic.com and to Katz, that's kosher. Ramallite (talk) 16:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The American journalist Kenneth Bilby, who had covered Palestine for years, explained the Arab leaders' rationale for the flight : "Let the Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab countries to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea." (New Star In The Near East, New York, 1950).
 * This is a verbatim cut and paste from a copyrighted article, is not neutral (says 'Bilby explained', as opposed to 'according to Bilby'). Who is this Bilby anyway? Credible source?  Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a quote from Bilby, verified and documented. Nothing to do with copyright (what does it mean in this context). Bilby is a very credible and know journalist who wrote books about the middle east conflicts. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you know how many journalists reported on and wrote books about these events? Why does Bilby have a special right to appear here? --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * how many - please tell us ? maybe you have no idea what you're talking about ? this is legitimate quote.

The claim that Arab leaders endorsed the refugee flight has been rejected by modern Palestinian writers. But Emil Ghoury, a member of the Palestinian Arabs' national leadership, admitted: "I don't want to impugn anybody, but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. "The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem." (Daily Telegraph", September 6, 1948)
 * What does this EDITORIAL (not a historian or politician) have to do with The "Arab leaders' endorsement of flight" Theory? It seems to be criticizing Arab actions blaming them for going to war, but is certainly not evidence of an 'endorsement of flight'. Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * it might be a little leap for some, but I think it's quite obvious for the common reader. This is another backup for the theory. It shows the Arab motive. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Your understanding of The Arab Mind is very impressive. --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * thank-you. yours isn't. Amoruso 11:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The prime minister of Iraq, Nuri Said, declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." (Sir Am Nakbah”, Nazareth, 1952).
 * "Wives and children to safe places" is the same thing as "Arab endorsement of flight"?  Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is. You need to understand that in research, one shows what fits his theories. This is the point of these theories. Of course you can open it to interpretation. If you do, you will be supporting another theory. I think this is the point of the article. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Who would say "safe places" when they meant "out of the country"? This one falls on its face all by itself.  Incidentally, since you have certified that this book is a reliable source, make sure you don't complain when I quote this book's account of the "Tantura massacre". --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * you're proving you have no idea what you're talking about.... Amoruso 11:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Further quotations : "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states and Lebanon among them." (The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951).
 * This is an editorial, which perhaps is criticizing the war in the first place and not any "endorsement of flight". But again, it is an editorial, which is not encyclopedic material per se because it is not the words of a historian or an official of the period, but merely an opinion piece. Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * An opinion by an Arab newspaper during or right after a war. This shows the public opinion at the time of the flight. Isn't it surprising that at the time of the war nobody was talking about a refugee problem caused by Israel ? This is very helpful for the theory and credible as such. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Try to stick to things you know to be true. Actually you can read contemporary newspapers and find plenty of examples.  Here's one: "They have been mortaring Jaffa heavily most of to-day, wounding a large number of Arabs, and causing an exodus which had already begun during the last few days to be accelerated by sea and by road." (Times, April 26, 1948)  As for Arab spokepeople, they were very reluctant to admit the massive defeat they were suffering.  Of course some of them claimed that they planned it, just like Hezbollah is claiming that they had all along planned to move their launchers to the north.  No reason to believe either without evidence, and there isn't any.  --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * this TIMES quote of yours is fake. you probably just made it up. the evidence that I put here is huge. Amoruso 11:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"On that day the Mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead." (The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom. Oct. 12, 1963).
 * If this is true, okay..... Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Good. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So prove it is genuine, determine whether it is a report, editorial, letter to the editor, or what. --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I did. Amoruso 11:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities, killing of women and children, etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled, leaving their homes and properties to the enemy." (The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953).
 * This is an editorial, which again does not necessarily address an "endorsement of flight". Yet again, it is an editorial, which is not encyclopedic material per se because it is not the words of a historian or an official of the period, but merely an opinion piece. Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * See comment above. Nothing is necessariy per se. This is why everything is in a theory section, even though it should be stated as fact. Be happy about that. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

"It was the Arab states who started and were responsible for starting the June (1967) War. They had duped themselves with their own fiery rhetoric and had become prisoners of their own propaganda." (Evan W. Williams, former US Minister Consul-General who served in Beirut, Tehran and Jerusalem, in his book "Jerusalem, Key to Peace", 1970).
 * Hello, 1967? This articles covers the exodus of 1948. Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, this requires some leap to understand the propaganda issue. I'm willing for you to delete this one, if you want. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Take it to Arab bashing. --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"We said: "Let's resettle those people." The government of Egypt and so on, they all said: 'Wait a while' or 'No, we won't do it. The only place they are going to resettle is back in Israel, right or wrong. You must remember - well, these people are simply pawns. The Arab countries don't want to take Arabs." (John McCarthy, the United States Catholic Conference refugee expert, in a 1975 interview).
 * Yet again does not address "endorsement of flight" but address a non-Palestinian leader's unwillingness to grant citizenship to refugees. Has nothing to do with "endorsement of flight". Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It says that the "refugees" were pawns. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure this one out. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The citation is insufficient; where was the interview published? If genuine, it might fit in Palestinian refugee but it has nothing to do with the causes of the exodus. This is from Joan Peters, did you know that?  --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * the citation is more than sufficent. all the evidence is there. Joan peters maybe also used it. btw, Joan peters is discredited is she ? One sided bias again.

Monsignor George Hakim, then Greek Catholic bishop of Galilee, the leading Christian personality in Palestine for many years, told a Beirut newspaper in the summer of 1948, before the flight of the Arabs had ended: "The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly, and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile." (Sada al Janub," August 16, 1948).
 * If this is true, okay..... This Hakim guy must be a big shot to find himself so notable.... Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok then. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I proved this quotation is misleading. It's a good example of how propaganda works. --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I proved the quotation isn't misleading. It's a good example of the truth. Amoruso 11:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa, not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive urging the Arabs to quit.It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." (The London weekly "Economist" October 2, 1948).
 * If this is true, okay..... although it still is a foreign paper's report but okay.... Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * ok then. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

On April 3, 1949, the Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station in Cyprus stated: "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem."
 * A broadcasting station in Cyprus? This most certainly is a relevant and verifiable source.. sigh Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, delete it if you must, though I saw this in several publications, and I'm sure it's true. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This radio station was run by the British Secret Services. Spreading the truth was probably not their primary mission.  --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * this comment of yours is original research (and wrong) and it has nothing to do with anything of wikipedia. Amoruso 12:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"The Arab States encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies." (The Jordanian newspaper "Filastin" wrote on February 19, 1949) Most pointed of all was the comment of one of the refugees themselves: "The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in." (Jordan daily “Ad Difaa", September 6, 1954).
 * I find it hard to believe that a Jordanian daily would print something like this (not to mention I've never heard of this paper), but then again who am I to not believe what I don't believe? Ramallite (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I found quotes from this paper in the Mount Campus archives. It is true. They actually reported it. Amoruso 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * "Quotes from this paper" doesn't cut it. Prove it is geniune and in context. One refugee's opinion is not notable anyway. You don't even name this refugee.  Also, you claim you are not copying stuff from the web but you even copied the introduction "Most pointed of all was the comment of one of the refugees" which is not part of the quotation.  --Zerotalk 13:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I used Katz and verified the sources. I will add in the Katz reference. Amoruso 12:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

the garbage here is the whole master plan theory
This was refuted by many historians like explained, and still it is included. on the other hand, the truth, that is, the theory of the arabs wanting the palestinians to leave and encouraging it, is widely spread and known and has been researched. I really don't understand what's the problem here. This is a long article and most of it is concentrated on the palestinian fantasy of refugees. It's very strange that with millions of refugees of every war in history, the only refugees people keep discussing about are the palestinian refugees. Some of them still receive money from the U.N even though they are millionaires. It is quite disturbing. This article lists many theories, some of them are obviously non sensible. I don't see what's the problem with writing more in the section provided for this theory. If you don't agree with the theory, move on, but respect it.

The quotes I've cross-checked. The arab papers quotes are available in computers in the Hebrew University in Mount Campus. Those that I didn't find I didn't include, from the source you said which indeed provided me the initial database to search for.

There are no grounds for deletion of this section and I will not agree to it. You can take it to arbitration and then we'll see if Wikipedia advocates propaganda of palestinians over facts. Of course Arab, not palestinian, quotes of what happened are very important to support this theory, so I don't see any problem of it either.

As to your claim of wanting to move to Kiryat Shmona : a) be my guest b) it's not relevant c) does that mean Jews can move to southern lebanon now too ? d) this theory doesn't talk about any moral aspects, simply what happened e) the palestinians left at the request of SOMEONE's else army, not themselves which is the point here f) they moved so that the arabs can come in and perform mass genocide on the Jews, which is not the case here g) it didn't happen. so one needs to live with the reality.

Amoruso 17:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * They moved so that someone else can come in and perform mass genocide of the Jews? Funny, I thought it was the rockets and the shells and fighting going on around them, but I guess that doesn't matter. If you really think that a foreign army can simply come and request that people leave their own homes, and that the Palestinians would simply acquiesce like that, with no other factors (like their lives are already in danger or they are being forcibly expelled on trucks, read Rabin's diaries), you have serious misconceptions about our history. But I will admit that every party always chooses to believe what they choose to believe in order to justify their (or their ancestor's) actions. If it makes you feel better to believe what you believe, nobody can stop you. Ramallite (talk) 17:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * p.s. if "Jews" moving to south Lebanon, and "Muslims and Christians" moving to northern Israel would bring peace, I'd be all for it. But you'd have to take this debate up with a Lebanese fellow, I'm not involved in this. Ramallite (talk) 17:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Guys WP is not a soap box or newsgroup deabte club. As for History: There is no WP:RS that show any "master plan" - it is completly OR that concluded that "theory" based on misunderstood words by Zionist leaders 10 and 15 years before the war. If you want to see what took place in 48 you need only to look at nassrale call to the Arabs of Haifa: "get out so we can bomb the jews" - this is EXACTLY what Arab leaders did in 48. Zeq 17:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * very well said. After Nasralla said this, some Arabs in Israel in papers mentioned the similarity and that it sounded really bad and reminded of past times. Maybe this Narallah example can be included too. At the very least this quote from Katz should be brought too :

Equally specifically brought to public notice was the part played by the chief spokesman for the combined Arab states, the Secretary General of the Arab League himself. Habib Issa wrote in the New York Lebanese daily newspaper At Hoda on June 8, 1951, The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade... He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. -- Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down. Amoruso 02:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So why don't you identify "Habib Issa" for us. I bet you can't. While you are at it, explain to us why Katz didn't identify this as a Maronite newspaper. --Zerotalk 03:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

And of course the ultimate proof :

As late as 1952, the charge had the official stamp of the Arab Higher Committee. In a memorandum to the Arab League states, the Committee wrote: Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals -- declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands -- and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise Amoruso 02:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No reliable source, inadmissible. Explain how Katz came into possession of a secret memorandum that contradicted the position stated dozens of times.  --Zerotalk 03:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup attempt - the link between words and events
Several paragraphs currently in this article contains statements or editorial passages, but provides no explanation on how it played a part in the events which took place. Obviously, any person can say something but it doesn't follow there's a connection, that people are listening and acting based on what is said.

In an attempt to clean up some of the mess on this page, I have moved a number these paragraph here to talk, for rewording, cleanup and for proper context (link for cause) to be added:

(this page is still a mess though, for instance the subtitle "Claims by Israeli government sources" is way off; the section should either be refactored or renamed "Israeli claims" or something.

(Katz:) For nearly a generation, those leaders have willfully kept as many people as they possibly could in degenerating squalor, preventing their rehabilitation, and holding out to all of them the hope of return and of "vengeance" on the Jews of Israel, to whom they have transferred the blame for their plight.

... at the time No Arab spokesman made such a charge. At the height of the flight, the Palestinian Arabs' chief representative at the United Nations, Jamal Husseini, made a long political statement (on April 27) that was not lacking in hostility toward the Zionists; he did not mention refugees. Three weeks later (while the flight was still in progress) the secretary-general of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, made a fiercely worded political statement on Palestine; it contained not a word about refugees.

The American journalist Kenneth Bilby, who had covered Palestine for years, claimed that the Arab leaders' rationale for the flight was:
 * "Let the Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab countries to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea." (New Star In The Near East, New York, 1950).


 * "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states and Lebanon among them." (The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951).


 * "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities, killing of women and children, etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled, leaving their homes and properties to the enemy." (The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953).


 * "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa, not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive urging the Arabs to quit. It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." (The London weekly "Economist" October 2, 1948).


 * "The Arab States encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies." (The Jordanian newspaper "Filastin" wrote on February 19, 1949)

-- Steve Hart 00:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

But the leading Arab propagandist of the day, Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London), reaffirmed the endorsement theory:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country. (The Arabs (London, 1955)), p. 1831 -- Steve Hart 01:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The claim that Arab leaders endorsed the refugee flight has been rejected by modern Palestinian writers. But Emil Ghoury, a member of the Palestinian Arabs' national leadership, admitted: "I don't want to impugn anybody, but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. "The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem." (Daily Telegraph", September 6, 1948)
 * quote moved per discussion about accuracy -- Steve Hart 22:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * this is all plainly ridicilous. Move back all the citations to their proper place under the endorsement theory. The quotations were : (a) cross checked for verifiability (b) all the quotations I placed on the last edit appeared in Katz's history book. I don't see anyone questioning the millions of Benny Morris quotes on wikipedia's million sites that he's cited on. Did anyone go to the archives and check each and every quote that Benny Morris bases his studies upon ? no. You can add "Katz claims" before every quote if you think that quote is selective (because they do exist) but you must include them. Thank you. Amoruso 00:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I do want to take this opportunity and thank you for what I assume to be your good faith here. I do believe you mean only good, and you must see that some members are trying to exploit the final look of the article not because they think quotes are inaccurate or selective or unreliable, but simply because they don't like the quotes themselves. They want to read through the article and not to see things which contradict their way of thinking and belief. But you do seem intent on simply cleaning up the article and making it the best it can. And you should be congratulated for your objective efforts. Even though you moved quotations here to talk, you did so with good faith and did not delete for POV reasons, an impartial island in a sea of bias. I hope you see eye to eye with me that quotes should be kept, especially if they're quoted from Katz's book, just like quotes of military officials and so on that Morris bases his work are all kept. Attacking Joan peters, Katz, Schetman and so on and standing by Morris, Khalidi and so on, is a pure example of POV standard that certain users are trying to enforce upon Wikipedia, and it's sad. Amoruso 00:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

-

Part two
Well, now I'm possibly disgusted. Running some of the text above through Google, most or all of them come up on the same webpages, e.g. United Jewish Communities and Palestine Facts. If quotes and information indeed have been lifted from a web page and included here as book citations, that's a violation of WP:CITE: Intermediate sources: State where you got it. No wonder there was no context. Either a lot of resourcing must be done, or a purge. Based on this I've also removed another paragrap from the article (inserted above). -- Steve Hart 01:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I really don't know what you're talking about. And I think you don't know either. Making outrageous claims like are a violation of wikipedia policy. There is nothing wrong with the paragraphs you just vandalised and brought them here for no reason. There is no violation of WP:CITE policy with these paragraphs. Where it says they appear in a book, they do, and it's all been verified. I've been spending time in the Mount Scopus Library and verifying these sources, books and papers. The fact they also appear in personal sites, news sites and so on is utterly irrelevant. I asssure you kahlidi/pappe/benny morris quotes appear on various palestinian and hamas sites and so on.


 * The only proposal made sense by you here is that claims not made by israel or arab leaders should be in a different section and say they're made but other sources or people present at the time. These are all important factors to understand the issue and are critical to the article. This vendetta of some people who don't agree with these facts on a political point of view is a violation of the NPOV policy of wikipedia. Please refrain from doing so. Restate the paragraphs in the article and allow a cleanup of categorizing if you wish. Anything else you shouldn't do. You're also in clear violation of No personal attacks, Civility , and almost simply Vandalism of this article and efforts of users to expand on a legitimate and based theory of the exodus. Amoruso 01:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Did you verify the Attiyah quotation? --Zerotalk 01:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Page 183, penguin books. Check it yourself. This is an exact quotation. I'm simply left very annoyed and irritated from what I'm encountering here. One of the pillars of wikipedia is to discuss things in a civil way. My contribution to the theory section is legitimate. It's small, it's not even that outrageous and it's not anything controversial either. It's simply further information on something that already exists, all in accordance with WP:V, WP:RS, WP:CITE, but since the conflict is a sensitive issue, I am sorry to see that people abuse their power and try to enforce former edits which fit their POV. This is disappointing and damaging to the wikipedia cause. If any of you want to use wikipedia to enforce only your political agenda and ignore the theories/facts/debates from all sides, do so, just let it be known at the wikipedia introduction page that wikipedia is no place for Jews supporting Israel or something like that, perhaps a haven for anyone who wants to promote theories that Israel is an apartheid state and any claims which may put Israel into a positive light are immediately discredited with lame excuses. Amoruso 01:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if you are the one who included these paragraphs (I haven't been following this article) and you have access to the books, then I'm sure you can provide the paragraph before and after these quotations so that we can see what context they appear in. I have not accused you of anything, not even mentioned your name (but since you replied it's strange that other people have quoted the exact same paragraphs from the same books and put them on a web page) Disclaimer: I've only noticed that several of the paragraphs are listed on other web pages, I don't know if they all are. Wikipedia policy is clear: if something comes from a webpage instead of a book, then we need to cite the web page and not the book. It's really not that big of a deal, we just need to recite according to WP:CITE. Anyway, until others have had an opportunity to comment I think we should leave the paragraphs here on Talk. And again, I didn't mean tgo accuse anybody (it's late, sorry) -- Steve Hart 01:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * yes, it's very "strange" that people use the same arguments and famous quotes. Unbelievable even. oh look, a random search for sykes's book brought me to here : - how strange is that ? it's a website called bint jbeil (hizballah outpost in lebanon) and it justifies attacks on israel which is a war crime country of course, how strange ? Could it be the same quote is used and was just copy pasted here ? How peculiar !!! But wait, that quote is still in the article. Evidently, you didn't try to see who is using those pro palestinian quotes ! I wonder why ! From all the asterix quotes in the section supposed to deal PRO ENDORSEMENT THEORY, the only ones left are these :


 * "'Doesn't he have anything more important to do?' was Ben-Gurion's reaction when told, during his visit to Haifa on 1 May 1948, that a local Jewish leader was trying to convince the Arabs not to leave. 'Drive them out!' was Ben-Gurion's instruction to Yigal Allon, as recorded by Yitzhak Rabin in a censored passage of his memoris published in 1979, with regard to the Arabs of Lydda after the city had been taken over on 11 July 1948." (Ben-Ami, Shlomo (2006). Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy. Oxford University Press, p. 44.)


 * An interview frequently cited in Zionist historiography was with Monsignor George Hakim, then Greek Catholic bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948: "The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly, and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile." Hakim later commented on this use of his words: "There is nothing in this statement to justify the construction which many propagandists had put on it... At no time did I state that the flight of the refugees was due to the orders, explicit or implicit, of their leaders, military or political, to leave the country... On the contrary, no such orders were ever made... Such allegations are sheer concoctions and falsifications. ...as soon as hostilities began between Israel and the Arab States, it became the settled policy of the Government to drive away the Arabs..." (quoted in E. B. Childers, The Wordless Wish, in I. Abu-Lughod (ed) Transformation of Palestine, Northwestern University Press (1971), 197-198.)


 * The Jewish Haganah broadcast a warning to Arabs in Haifa on 21 April: "that unless they sent away 'infiltrated dissidents' they would be advised to evacuate all women and children, because they would be strongly attacked from now on" ('British Proclamation In Haifa Making Evacuation Secure', The Times, Thursday, April 22, 1948; pg. 4; Issue 51052; col D ).


 * woah, what do you know... it seems you didn't dispute even one grain of sand, not even a word, a spelling mistake, of these different quotes. Of course all legitimate historians, verfied, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:CITE what not... everything, perfect, right ? Yeah, sure... no problem, you want me to quote the entire book of Atiyah I'll go back to the library and do it , but I must say I'm assuming bad faith here from no on. If you want to make the articles any way you want, go ahead. I'm close to not giving a flying you know what anymore. wikipedia is simply losing any shred of credible dignity and I'm sorry I've wasted my time. I should have realised it when I saw the banning of anyone leftists disagree with like Zeq etc and I was warned to this effect by people. Amoruso 02:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * While I'm not for censoring or anything like that, I have to point out a couple of things here:
 * My previous note that many of these quotations do not really support, or are evidence of, "Arab leaders' endorsement of flight" which is what the section is about. A lot of these quotes have a lot of Israel-bashing, or Arabs bashing other Arabs or whatever, but most of these quotations actually do not specifically support the thesis of the section. Amoruso had argued on this talk page that one can somehow conclude that there was 'endorsement' that may be indirectly evident from reading these quotations, but I still don't see it. The explanations may actually border on original research.
 * I agree with Steve that some of these quotations can be easily found on a multitude of anti-Palestinian sites, but almost always without context. For example, I found the Emil Ghoury quote on multiple websites, always quoting the Daily Telegraph as a source. But I could not find a single reference to the entire Telegraph article, only that specific sentence. As such, and without context, I really wish that those with access to archival material (HU Mount Scopus, which is what I assume Amoruso meant when mentioning "Mount Campus" above, may have them perhaps?) I myself am not allowed to enter Jerusalem or I would have been interested in going myself while I was still in Palestine last week. In any case, is there any way to remedy these concerns? Ramallite <sup style="color:DarkBlue;">(talk)  03:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * p.s. I can assure you that any problem Zeq had in the past was not due to his ideology but rather his manner of dealing with other Wikipedians. Most regulars and administrators on WP tend to be much more right wing vis-a-vis Israel than left wing. (Except for myself, I'm rather wingless). Ramallite <sup style="color:DarkBlue;">(talk) 03:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * all the other quotations can be found just as easily on anti-israel sites, like I showed above an example, and also out of context. That argument is quite void then. I do believe all the quotations support the theory and they don't approach original research. It's a deduction people can make, it's why it's a theory. If a palestinian says he blames the arabs for the whole refugee issue already from the beginning of the war when they entered and told them to leave, it means he knows who is to blame. And I don't see where the confusion is. As for your assurance, I will remain highly skeptical since I'm now assuming bad faith here after these one sided and violent edits. Amoruso 11:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * For the record, all the quotations I have added to this article were taken by me directly from the source given with the quotation. That includes the quotation from al-Azm's memoirs.  --Zerotalk 12:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto. --Ian Pitchford 12:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * To clear up a couple of things:
 * Initially, I moved several quotations which appeared out of context to talk for discussion. Most of them also suggests guilt by association, a logical fallacy. As a comparison, if a newspaper criticizes Bush in an editorial it isn't evidence of anything, it's just an opinion.
 * I see four "quotations" left in that section, 2 pro and 2 con (which is largely irrelevant since WP isn't supposed to balance a debate 50-50. WP present viewpoints in proportion to the prominence they hold in the outside world (that could be 50:50, 90:10 or 10:90)). I kept Hakim Greek bishop, Haganah broadcast, and Katz II because those contained specific information, but I have not reviwed them. I kept Rabin because I read the whole passage myself years ago thus remembering it. I cut Katz 1 in half because the second part of the quotation (about someone failing to says something at a particular time and place) isn't proof of anything.


 * It is proof of everything !!! If the Jews caused the exodus, don't you think arab leaders will mention it at the time ? They didn't, because the hoax wasn't invented yet. This is the most relelvant proof there is. It shows how the arguments changed to meet their political ends. Amoruso 16:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What happened next was that I googled a sentence from one of the quotations, leading me to a page with several of the quotations from this article, complete with book citations (e.g. Edward Atiyah, The Arabs, London: Penguin Books, 1955, p. 183). What struck me as strange wasn't the fact that the quotations could be found on the web, but that several of them appeared on the same page, identical to "our" quotations. Therefore I believe a second look is warranted.
 * Further: No, I did not continue to check every other quotation or cite in this article, I'm not a machine who do not need sleep. But my opinion applies equally to the rest.


 * What should be done is to identify the context of these quotations, as demonstrated by Zero below. Who - Why - Where. Which is why I suggested that if User:Amoruso has access to the sources then s/he can post the text before and after the quotations here. That's a start. We're dealing with a subject with a high level of propaganda coming from both sides, which is why I believe editors here largely rely on books and journals from recognized authors in their work, instead of text from the web. And rightfully so. -- Steve Hart 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)