Talk:1994 Bophuthatswana crisis

Accuracy
Too many wrong, unsubstansiated and uncited claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.17.7.124 (talk) 00:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Such as? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Confusion between Tebbutt report and Truth Commission
The Tebbutt Commission was held two weeks after the Bophuthatswana coup in 1994 and it reported on the events - purely an investigation, nothing to do with prosecution or amnesty. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission was held four years later, in 1998-1999. The Truth Commission didn't prosecute people - it allowed people to apply for amnesty, which Menyatsoe did. His application was opposed by the families, but he was granted amnesty. This was fairly normal. Amnesty went both ways: in other cases, AWB members were also granted amnesty for crimes. Zaian 19:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifyng
By the who were the three men, I know that they were from Naboomspruit, but was it Wolfaardt, the elderly man with the beard, who got out and said, "We need an ambulance" or was Wolfaardt the one against the car tyre? I'm pretty sure that Fourie was the half- dead guy lying on the floor but I can't clarify of the other two which one was Uys and which one was Wolfaardt.

P.S.

Sorry to bother you on this issue but you seem to have an abundance of knowledge do you have any idea of who the 3 people killed in the Battle of Ventersdorp were, I've looked everywhere but I can't get names, the Bang Bang Club book covers the Bop Coup but not the Ventersdorp incident so if you know the names please add them to the article.

BOV1993 20:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The three man may have been AWB members or not. But apparantly they weren't in Bop as part of the AWB contingent, rather because they owned businesses there. That at least the story that I keep on hearing. The whole event smells a bit like trying to break the Whites willingness to fight for their freedom. --41.18.226.32 (talk) 17:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Colour of Mercedes etc
I think the Merc might be cream or white rather than blue. Yes Wolfaardt was the beared AWB member. --  maxrspct  ping me  19:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

A few problems that need clarifying
The re-incorporation of Bop was not a consequence of the coup. It was going to happen regardless. Were the 3 AWB members killed by Bop Police or Army? The article says Army in the intro and Police further down. Roger (talk) 16:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What is said by Ontlametse Menyatsoe?
I've seen a youtube clip where he or someone else says "I could kill you in one moment" but tis is neither in the Bang Bang Club book or in TRC report. I have not seen the latest quote - 'why don't bring your own ambulance" anywhere before. The "what are you doing in my country" is in various books and websites but not in that clip i saw on youtube, which is in itself not referenceable. I am looking for further references. -  maxrspct  ping me  11:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Not clear who is actually saying this. --41.151.108.133 (talk) 07:46, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

confused
Somebody re-read the introduction and check the wording. It makes it sound like Bophutatswana's army engaged in mutiny and this mutiny was supported by the AVF. The article later states that Mangope asked the AVF for help in suppressing said mutiny. One of these claims must be wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.184.105 (talk) 21:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

copy of move log, July 2009
Seb az86556 (talk) 22:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 22:48, 18 July 2009 Seb az86556 (talk | contribs) moved Talk:Bophuthatswana coup d'état to Talk:Bophuthatswana coup d'état of 1994 ‎ (Bophuthatswana had more than one coup d'etat during its history. The renaming specifies which one is meant and is due to my currently expanding the main article, which will eventually include information on all coup d'etats.)
 * 22:48, 18 July 2009 Seb az86556 (talk | contribs) moved Bophuthatswana coup d'état to Bophuthatswana coup d'état of 1994 ‎ (Bophuthatswana had more than one coup d'etat during its history. The renaming specifies which one is meant and is due to my currently expanding the main article, which will eventually include information on all coup d'etats.)

Murder of
The killing of Wolfaardt, Uys, and Fourie was clearly murder. Their murderer was charged. The article appears to downplay this to "killing". It makes no reference to others trying to stop the murder, or to the charges laid afterwards. The reference to passengers as "gunmen" is also misleading. There is no evidence anyone in this vehicle had used a firearm.Royalcourtier (talk) 01:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Invasion
There was no invasion. This word should be removed from the text.Royalcourtier (talk) 01:26, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Killing of Wolfaardt, Uys, and Fourie
It is stated that Wolfaardt was a "another gunman". But there was no evidence that these men were firing at anything.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:25, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Title misleading
This article is entirely about events of a couple of days. It cannot be called a conflict. It also cannot be said that the result was "Opposition-SADF victory. Removal and abolition of Lucas Mangope's regime. Disestablishment of Bantustan". Those are far too profound, and did not result from this one event.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:32, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 13 December 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS. There has been no discussion for a while, even after it was relisted, and all three people who commented here suggested different names. KSF T C 16:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Bophuthatswana conflict (1994) → ? – Was the event a "coup d'état" or a "conflict"? If the former, the title should be Bophuthatswana coup d'état, which I prefer over Bophuthatswana coup d'état (1994) or Bophuthatswana coup d'état of 1994. Otherwise, remove "(1994)" as there are no other notable events of the same name. As I can see, the incident lasted a few days or less. If neither "coup d'état" or "conflict", another name must be used. George Ho (talk) 10:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. JudgeRM   (talk to me)  01:42, 21 December 2016 (UTC)


 * It was a coup d'etat, that's for certain. But there was more than coup d'etat in Bophuthatswana. The first one took place in 1988, and ended with the coup plotters being crushed by the South African military.


 * With regards as to whether this particular incident could be described more as a coup or conflict, I'd suggest Bophuthatswana Crisis of 1994 or Bophuthatswana Crisis (1994). The coup was a big part of it, but the circumstances also included other situations which weren't part of the coup - ie the massive riots and the AWB incursion, etc. Hope that helps, thanks! -- Katan gais (talk) 11:48, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe something like 1994 Bophuthatswana crisis? Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty &#124; Averted crashes 09:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 January 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move to 1994 Bophuthatswana crisis. (non-admin closure) --  Dane talk  00:15, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Bophuthatswana conflict (1994) → Bophuthatswana crisis (1994) – Or Bophuthatswana Crisis (1994). In the previous RM, the consensus agreed to change from "conflict" to "crisis". However, the RM was closed as "no consensus", despite favoring the change. Main reason was changing the format of the title from " " to something like " " or " ". Unless changing the format is favored strongly, the current title format should be used by default. Meanwhile, let's change from "conflict" to "crisis" already. George Ho (talk) 21:57, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Move to 1994 Bophuthatswana crisis. That's our usual formatting for such events, and I think it would have been perfectly reasonable for the closer of the above discussion to accept that as the target. If there is really no consensus for that title, then I'd be happy to accept Bophuthatswana crisis (1994) as well, per nom, but it seems like we should just get this right and make it WP:CONSISTENT with everything else on Wikipedia. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 12:47, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I can't see the problem with the current title that needs solving. It was a minor conflict: some soldiers mutinied and some paramilitaries were mobilised. There were violent incidents and a few deaths. Sure, it was also a crisis, but it seems to me it is best remembered for the confrontations that took place between armed groups. For that reason, "conflict" sounds appropriate. Srnec (talk) 00:15, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Move to 1994 Bophuthatswana crisis per precedent with similar articles concerning multi-faceted incidents such as this one. There were more dimensions to the incident - especially politically - than just the military actions taken by the SADF, BDF, and the Afrikaner militias. Good examples would include the civil disorder and rioting, the strikes, and the takeover of public installations with the accompanying hostage situation. -- Katan gais (talk) 19:35, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * "takeover of public installations with the accompanying hostage situation". Sounds like a conflict! Srnec (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This was perpetuated by civilians, not military or paramilitary personnel. -- Katan gais (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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