Talk:1996 Mount Everest disaster

rating
What is this page's rating on the quality scale? Tennis 52 00:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Doug Hansen
The article states that Doug Hansen died of hypothermia; reading the book, it seems clear to me that no one knows what happened to him. I thought that the only theory presented (as conjecture) is that he slipped and fell during an exposed traverse; only his ice axe was later found. Where did the hypothermia bit come from? Summitscribbler (talk) 10:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure where it came from. Hansen reported only that he had 'gone': Ewen (talk) 15:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It was Rob Hall who reported by radio that Hansen was 'gone.' Petershank (talk) 19:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Although Dougs most probible cause of death is hypothermia it was never proven.

Analysis Section
Concerning this:

"In May 2004, Kent Moore, a physicist, and John L. Semple, a surgeon, both researchers from the University of Toronto, told New Scientist magazine that an analysis of weather conditions on May 11 suggested that freak weather caused oxygen levels to plunge by around 14%.[18][19]"

What does the term "freak weather" mean? Weather that is rare for near the summit of Everest? Or weather that is 'freakish' for elsewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.236.67 (talk) 23:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Freak weather" means the circumstance that on a ridge where heavy winds blow there is a potential area with additional underpressure directly below the ridge where most climbers go, i.e. lower than the "normal" air pressure (for these heights) 326mbar which is yet three times lower than air pressure on sea level . This will cause additional exhaustion to get (not) enough ox. On a website I once read that on an everest ridge there were found pressure circumstances giving only 17% of "normal" air pressure.. -- 80.145.245.184 (talk) 00:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

useful sketch in WP-DE?
http://www.de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Kangshung-06.PNG shows the southeast ridge from south col to summit, blue line. -- 80.145.212.95 (talk) 18:52, 14 November 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_WhelanUTC)

List of fatalities
I made the list conform to the style used in the August 2008 K2 climbing accident article list of fatalities by adding flags and by grouping expeditions, locations and causes of death. But note: I did not change the order of the list in any way. I have two questions:
 * Are there any verifiable reasons for having Doug Hansen's cause of death as "unknown", while Andrew Harris' is "disappeared"? It's hardly the disappearance as such that caused Harris' death.
 * Does the order in which the fatalities are listed hold a special meaning? If not, then Hansen and Hall, who both died on the south summit, could be grouped together. &mdash;  &times;  Flare  &times;  {{sup|{Talk)}} 21:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Done, on the Hansen and Hall grouping. --Racerx11 (talk) 03:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The Japanese climbers
The description of the actions of the Japanese climbers seems rather POV, especially considering the contrasting account given at Green Boots. &mdash;  &times;  Flare  &times;  {{sup|{Talk)}} 00:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Use of the verb "summitting"
I appreciate that this is a word and means "to reach the summit", but might it be advisable to avoid it where possible? I've read a number of articles about Everest today, and despite seeing the verb used several times I nevertheless misread a sentence, parsing it as "Martin Adams and Klev Schoening had submitted but Beidleman and the remaining four Mountain Madness clients had not yet arrived." I assumed that a non-native English speaker had written that sentence and meant to convey that Adams and Schoening had "submitted to the effort" and had abandoned their attempt. I think this word has the potential to confuse many readers - for instance non-climbers or those for whom English is not their first language. The sentence fragment could easily be re-written Adams and Schoening had "attained the summit", "reached the summit", "arrived at the peak" &c. --Stroller (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, i have misread "summitted" as "submitted" several times in the past. I'd certainly be in favour of changing the wording to make things more clear. Well, less likely to be miread, at least. Julianhall (talk) 12:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the terms "summit", "summitted", and "summitting" are commonly used among climbers as well as in articles and books on the subject of mountaineering, so it I don't think its likely nor desirable to completely eliminate their use here. Interestingly, looking at it from a different angle, although I'm sure its been used on occasion, I don't recall ever seeing anything written on mountaineering where they describe someone as "submitting" to a mountain. Its this word that is probably avoided for precisely the same reasons you have stated here. Racerx11 (talk) 06:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have made some edits, rewording some of the sentences that tend to be easily misread. In place of "summitted" I only like "reached the summit", so I don't know if I can remove all the uses of "summitted" and "summitting" without it sounding repetitive. Anyway, I gave it a shot and I think its better now. Racerx11 (talk) 01:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

2.00pm the last safe time to turn around to reach Camp IV
Why is this the last safe time and what is the window, the climbers have to reach the top ?

At the moment, it just reads as a fact out of no-where


 * According to Krakauer in his book Into Thin Air, this is the time determined by the Adventure Consultants expedition leader Rob Hall as the latest time that a climber may summit and still have a reasonable chance of getting back down to Camp IV on the South Col before nightfall. Therefore he set 2pm as the absolute turn-around time for all his clients regardless of how close to the summit they are. In the book, Krakauer repeatedly described Hall as unwavering, very clear and very stern about the turn-around time and that there would be no exceptions. As it turns out, Hall ultimately allowed many of his clients to continue up the mountain well beyond the turn-around time with himself right there with them. In and of itself this was not a huge risk he was taking, because it just meant the climbers would have to negotiate a significant part of their descent in the dark (they have climbed up much of it in the darkness of the predawn hours that morning). But since a severe storm rolled in that afternoon, it indeed became a very deadly risk that he took. Anyway, I think someone has since clarified this in the article, but if its still unclear to some, it could use a word or two more. Racerx11 (talk) 00:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I dug up my copy of Into Thin Air and since the sentence in question follows Boukreev's summit time, it appears that this (2pm) was possibly Scott Fischer's team's turn-around time, although this is not stated clearly in the place in book where I found it. I will try to find something in Boukreev's The Climb.


 * As for Hall's turn-around time, this was more complicated and mysterious than I had explained above. Hall initially had said that the turn-around time would probably be 1:00pm. Later at Base Camp before the summit bid, "Hall was contemplating two possible turn-around times, either 1:00pm or 2:00pm" quoting Krakauer from the book now, "He never declared which of these times we were to abide by, however—which was curious, considering how much he'd talked about the importance of designating a hard deadline and sticking to it no matter what. We were simply left with a vague understanding that Hall would withhold making a final descision until summit day and then personally take responsibility for turning everyone around at the proper hour."


 * I haven't yet found any mention of why either 1pm or 2pm would necessarily be "safe". Nor have I found anything stating that a climber descending from the summit at either 1pm or 2pm could be reasonably expected reach Camp IV by nightfall(about 6:30pm) as I stated above. I admit, in my Feb 1st comment, I am guilty of paraphasing from a vague memory of a previous reading of the book long ago. However, Krakauer himself describes his own descent as starting from the summit shortly after 1:00pm and arriving at Camp IV shortly after nightfall. This includes a significant delay he experienced at the top of Hillary Step. This suggests that a competent climber could make it back by nightfall, perhaps turning around as late as 2pm.


 * Given all this I wouldn't call the statement in question dubious, but simply unsourced. I will do more research before making any edits. Racerx11 (talk) 04:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://outside.away.com/peaks/fischer/anatoli.html
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-05-25 06:21:06, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-06-08 03:56:27, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://outside.away.com/peaks/fischer/krakreply1.html
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-05-25 06:21:06, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-06-08 03:56:32, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 3
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.gsk.com/people/mogens/acclimatisation.htm
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-05-25 06:20:56, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-06-08 03:56:43, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 4
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://outside.away.com/peaks/japan.html
 * In Green Boots on 2011-03-22 13:04:06, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-05-25 06:21:01, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-06-08 03:56:53, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 5
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.uiaa.ch/article.aspx?c=226&a=120
 * In Green Boots on 2011-03-22 13:04:06, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-05-25 06:20:57, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-06-08 03:57:02, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 6
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.americanalpineclub.org/AAJO/pdfs/1997/21_hawley_everest_aaj1997.pdf
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-05-25 06:21:01, 404 Not Found
 * In 1996 Mount Everest disaster on 2011-06-08 03:57:13, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Analyses
I enter this, I accept its a big chance so please discuss.

Analysis[edit] The disaster was caused by a combination of events including; 1 ,the sudden arrival of a severe storm that caught the mountaineers by surprise. 2, a one and half hour delay in summiting caused by bottlenecks at the Balcony and Hilary Step, these delays were in themselves caused by delays in securing fixed ropes and the sheer numbers of people arriving at the bottlenecks at the same time, (34 climbers on 10th May). 3, the team leaders decisions to exceed the turnaround time of 2pm with many summiting after 2:30pm. 4, the sudden illness of two climbers at or near the summit after 3pm. 5, Several climbers ran out of oxygen with guides having to carry bottles up to stranded climbers as the storm approached. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommyxx (talk • contribs) 16:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

section needs more references
I tagged the "Progression" section, but there are also stray paragraphs in other parts of the article that could use more citations. Most of this stuff should be easily cited to the Krakauer book (I can give it a whack if I find some time). — howcheng  {chat} 23:22, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Surprised by storm?
The analysis currently cites the following major factor:“1. The sudden arrival of a severe storm that caught the mountaineers by surprise.“ Yet the lead of the article states that the storm was actually forecast and that the climbers launched their attempt to summit during a calm spell in the strorm. I’m pretty certain that they can’t have been surprised by something which was forecast.Tvx1 05:04, 27 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it was more the sudden arrival of the storm that surprised them. The expedition had aimed for May 10th as their summit date; a small break in the weather caused by monsoon winds pushing the jet stream north before itself arriving at the mountain provided (and still provides to this day) a brief window (around a week or so) for summit bids. I assume everyone on the mountain knew this window of opportunity, and that they just couldn't predict how long it would last, or that it would be cut short so soon. Gibblegook067 (talk) 21:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Are South Col and South Face different?
This sentence is in one of th elead paragraphs:
 * "While climbers died on both the North Face and South Col approaches, the events on the South Face were more widely reported. "

Are South Col and South Face different, so there were events in three different places? or are they the same, so there were events in just two places? Seems ambiguous to me? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 23:42, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Hall's Wedding Band
The article states that the IMAX expedition brought back Hall's wedding band and cites this from Krakauer 1997. I just read the 1999 edition and there he clearly states that Viesturs did not bring back the ring, since he couldn't bring himself to dig Hall's body up from the snow. Instead he sat down and talked with him for a bit. 88.67.166.253 (talk) 19:27, 16 September 2023 (UTC)