Talk:2008 Florida Atlantic Owls football team

Statistics section deleted
I don't see why a statistics section is consided unnecessary. I you look at the WikiProject College football suggested format for this type of article, a statistics section is included. WikiProject College football/Yearly team pages format Later, Rocket  maniac  RT 11:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Charles Pierre yards rushing record
Charles Pierre did not break the FAU career rushing record this year if we're to accept the stats provided. It would have happened late in the 2007 season.Goliath74 (talk) 14:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Game notes
An editor is repeatedly blanking large sections of the first game summary. The best practice in college football articles is to cover the entire EVENT of the game. That includes information on both teams, any controversies associated with the game, important game day festivities, etc. For examples please see:
 * 2007 USC Trojans football team - a featured article candidate, includes:
 * Info about game-day anticipation by Nebraska fans
 * Celebrities in attendance at the Nebraska game
 * Injuries to Stanford players
 * How Notre Dame was fairing in their season up to the USC game, etc.


 * 2005 Texas Longhorn football team - a Featured Article, includes:
 * Info on Ohio State traditions
 * Texas Tech's movement through the rankings
 * Traditions of Texas A&M


 * 2007 Texas Longhorn football team - a Good Article, discusses the name change of the Arkansas State team and the history of the name, etc.
 * 2008 Texas Longhorn football team - includes 4 sentences on the history of FAU Owls football + info on the head coach's comments coming into the game, etc.

There are many other examples among the better articles on college football teams on Wikipedia.

The information, which is cited with references, that is being blanked includes information such as:
 * 1) A three sentence overview of the UT team - This is very relevant for giving the reader some background into the game described here.  Three sentences is clearly not too much to spend on describing the opponent coming into the game.
 * 2) A quote about this game by the FAU head coach, and a mention of the controversy it caused.
 * 3) One sentence giving the Las Vegas game day prediction of the point spread.
 * 4) One sentence mentioning the 90+ degree the weather for the game 6:00pm kickoff
 * 5) One sentence explaining that Texas retired Vince Youngs jersey prior to the game

I argue that all of the above is worth including here. None of it is taking up that much space. All of it is relevant to the EVENT of these 2 teams facing each other. It is perfectly naturally for this article to include more information about FAU than about the other teams, but this article is about the entire FAU season, and the other teams are a part of that. So is the pageantry of college football. Retiring a jersey is an extremely rare event and deserves mention here, even if it was a jersey from the opposing team.

I am looking forward to discussing other points of view about what should be included or not or given more or less weight. Discussion is preferable to simply deleting information. Johntex\talk 01:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This information is NOT pertinent to Florida Atlantic University football. I am THE premiere contributor for Florida Atlantic University and NEVER has anything regarding pre-game ceremonies, temperature or anything for ROAD games been on FAU football pages.  FAU fans do not care that Vince Young's number was retired.  Please stop posting this useless information.  I will continue to revert it! Yezn0r|talk 01:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:OWN. It is not relevant whether you are "THE premiere contributor for Florida Atlantic University".  No one owns Wikipedia articles - they are collaborative efforts.
 * As I say above, the article is about all the events of the season. An important event such as retiring a jersey should be included in game information, no matter which of the two teams it was.  Do you have any explanation for why you think all events of the game should not be covered?  It is not your place to simply decide to do it your way and continuously blank the information you do not like.
 * Also, part of the information I am trying to include centers around statements made by the FAU coach. This is very relevant to an article on the FAU season, don't you agree? Johntex\talk 02:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have now made a request for outside opinions about this matter. For the convenience of everyone here is a comparison between two representative versions. Johntex\talk 02:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Posting in response to the request for comment. I'd suggest keeping some of Johntex's changes, but not all of them. The Vince Young item isn't really relevant for the FAU page, though I'd support putting it on the Texas page. The same goes for some of the information about Texas' history, such as how long the Longhorns have been playing football. I'd suggest instead including information about how many seasons FAU has played or what the loss brings FAU's overall record to. I'd suggest keeping the weather information — I use it in my single-game articles, and I'd encourage using it here. I would caution about using weasel words when creating these summaries; from my own experience, I know it's tough to do. Good luck to both of you! JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the response, JKBrooks85. As you can see in my original post, I have listed information to the FLORIDA ATLANTIC OWLS page on this game.  I follow your suggestions (with the exception of weather - I have never seen it necessary.  However, if Johntex is that adamant on weather, he can post the weather back on.  WIth your suggestion and affirmation of my post (in default by my post following your suggestion) I will not allow the other information to stay.  I will NOT touch anything on the Texas Longhorns page.  Anything on that page is appropriate from the Texas fan perspective and I respect that.  I am a FAU fan and I live in Boca Raton, FL.  I have a very good handle on what FAU fans want to read in their school's article. Thank you for your suggestions. Yezn0r (talk).  10:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Yezn0r, you still don't understand. You don't WP:OWN this article.  What goes into this article is for all editors to discuss and agree to.  We have heard from one outside commentator, we may hear from others.  You do not have the right to say you "will not allow the other information to stay."
 * JKBrooks85, could you please comment on the controversy surrounding the comments the FAU coach made about this game? I believe these are very relevant to FAU.  Yezn0r disagrees and continues to blank them.  You did not mention them in your comments.  Thanks, Johntex\talk 14:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Dude, you need to stop. JKBrooks85, who YOU invited to weigh in on this subject, said the only relevant information in your post is the weather.  Stop posting Vince Young's number retirement and your other non-relevant information.  You are not even an FAU fan.  Let it go! Yezn0r {talk) 13:29 2 September 2008 UTC
 * Yezn0r, again you don't own the article; everyone else does not have to accept the way you want to write it. As Bobak mentions below, this article is not just for FAU fans.  The article should be written from a neutral perspective.  It needs to include information that a reader may reasonably want to know about the game.  Perhaps the consensus among editors will be sentence about retiring Vince Young's jersey is important to include here, maybe not.  I am not saying the version I wrote is perfect or the final version; you have no right to make such a claim for your version, either. We have seen so far that at least one other editor agrees with me that information about the weather, the point spread, and the coaches comments may be relevant to the article.  Johntex\talk 19:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * As someone who's worked on the 2007 USC article that was mentioned above; I thought I'd chime an opinion: Obviously this page should be written from the perspective of FAU football, though that doesn't equate "for FAU supporters"; as an encyclopedia we've got to include the stuff that would interest someone unfamiliar to the team (or even college football). As such I've always kept to writing a bit about the opponent, usually to start the game summary off since there have already been entire sections on the subject team --I'll always mention a noted conflict.  Obviously this FAU-Texas game got national attention after Schnellenberger's comments.  For example, the 2007 USC-Stanford game (which turned out as a major Stanford upset of the Trojans), was preceded by a series of interesting press conferences by the two coaches.  Generally speaking, you'll know if the stuff was notable if the articles written after the game, about the results, even mention them.  Point spreads are useful as a tangible sign of how favored one team was over another --though they're not necessary.  However, when you have a really big team facing a smaller program, it helps put a big loss in perspective.  With all of that said, I don't see the  use in including Vince Young's jersey retirement since that really has nothing to do with the game or FAU's team --that's more of a UT-only thing, and is why we cross link the other teams' season articles.  Also, while I've done probably 95%+ of the work on the 2007 USC article, I don't feel as though I own the article --I just do all the legwork.  While I usually write pretty in-depth game summaries, I generally don't port everything over to the opponent school team pages because often I'd have to rewrite a lot to make it from their perspective. --Bobak (talk) 18:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input, JK and Bobak. Here is an alternate version based upon the comments above:
 * It shortens the amount of information on the opponent (Texas), without removing it entirely.
 * It also ommits mention of the the Vince Young jersey retirement.
 * It retains the info on the point spread and the weather for the game.
 * It retains information about the controversial comments made by the FAU coach.
 * (By the way, no version I have proposed here covers Texas as fully as the summary on the Texas page. There is lots more over there about UT player injuries, records set, etc.  I have never asserted that the FAU page should cover those facts in the same way as the Texas article)
 * I look forward to more suggestions and feedback. Johntex\talk 19:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Yezn0-your statements reek of WP:COI and WP:OWN. This is a collaborative encyclopedia. If you can't work with others on this article, you can be blocked or banned. See WP:NPOV too. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 21:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

johntex.... get a life... i give up Yezn0r

Resp
Responding as an outside opinion at the request of JohnTex in an attempt to find some common ground.

"I have a very good handle on what FAU fans want to read in their school's article." Yeznor, no one doubts that, but this isn't a fan page, it is an encyclopedia. As such, both sides need to be taken into account. It is important to show certain facets of the game from both sides of the ball.

Johntex, I think you have a consensus here, but I would refrain from making any more changes for a few days in order to give everyone time to think and respond. The deadline isn't coming up for a while, so let's take a few days and cool off. — BQZip01 — talk 02:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good advice BQZip01, I will gather the additional references suggested by JK below, but I will put them in a draft here on the talk page vs. adding them to the article right away. Johntex\talk 13:49, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Quotes discussion
I was asked my opinion on the quotes in this article, which was a topic not discussed in my previous comment. My position is this: Quotes are only useful if they're used to illustrate an element of the game that cannot be adequately covered by mere facts or if they're used in support of a fact. Setting them up as standalone items without any sort of context as to what they mean or why they were said doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I tend to avoid them unless absolutely necessary to provide an example of the emotion inherent in a particular event.

In this case, the quotes should be backed up by other sources stating that the game received extra attention as a result of Coach Schnellenburger's comments. Otherwise, they seem to be extraneous information. JKBrooks85 (talk) 03:38, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good points. I do have more references for the widespread reporting on this.  I will pick through them and see which ones might best show the impact without overly lengthening this portion. Thank you, Johntex\talk 13:47, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Reporting on the original quote:
 * FAU's Schnellenberger spices things up with tough talk - CBS
 * Schnellenberger basks in the spotlight - San Antonio Express
 * FAU gets tough test in opener at No. 11 Texas - Miami Herald
 * Reaction from Texas:
 * Miller disputes Schnellenberger's claims about Texas - ESPN
 * Reaction from FAU:
 * Howard Schnellenberger's words motivate FAU football players - Palm Beach Post
 * Reporting on Schnellenberger clarifying or backing off the remarks:
 * Howard Schnellenberger backs off comments about Texas - Orlando Sentinal
 * FAU football coach denies Texas 'toughness' comment - Palm Beach Post
 * Schnellenberger clarifies tough remarks - Austin American-Statesman
 * Howard Schnellenberger was misquoted, is all - Rivals.com
 * Schnellenberger clarifies remarks on UT opener - Houston Chronicle
 * Post-game discussion:
 * Howard Schnellenberger's words motivate FAU football players "Colt McCoy and Texas showed Florida Atlantic a few things about being tough..." - USA Today
 * McCoy tough as No. 11 Texas rolls to win "Ask Florida Atlantic now if they think the Texas Longhorns can take a few hits..." - International Herald
 * Wishing won't do - "In the end, all those folks in burnt orange...dismissing such nonsense as the ranting of a crazy old man...The scoreboard said as much, with the 11th-ranked Longhorns routing the Owls 52-10 in the season opener...Three hats? They couldn't get three fingers on McCoy." - Orlando Sun Sentinel
 * Young Texas safeties grow in Longhorns' victory - "There's a lesson to be learned," Miller said. "You need to just keep your mouth shut about things like that and let guys plays. You never give another team anything to feed off of. And I felt that we could have been even more physical." - ESPN
 * Schnellenberger will tell you: UT turned out tougher than expected ' "I know one thing: they are a lot tougher than we are," Schnellenberger said. Schnellenberger said he was trying to motivate his players by suggesting that maybe they could get physical against a Texas team blessed with superior talent.  "I was hoping I could raise the level of consciousness on my football team (so the players) could be as physical as they could become," Schnellenberger said. "I don't know if my remarks helped (Texas). If they did, I apologize to my team." - Austin American-Statesman