Talk:2019 Sebring shooting

Title
What is the purpose of the year and second comma? This appears to be the only notable shooting in Sebring and I don't think that the second comma is standard after the state, unless it's followed by the country or is part of a list. Jim Michael (talk) 13:35, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't know anything about the year. But, I have seen it often in similar articles.  As far as the second comma, I am the one who keeps placing it back in.  When one lists a city and state, the state name is considered an appositive and should be set off by commas.  The same thing goes for the date (the year is set off by commas before and after).  So, we would write (for example): The robbery occurred in Sebring, Florida, at about noon.  So, the state of "Florida" has a comma both before and after.  Or, another example: The birth date of January 25, 1972, is shared by John and his wife.  So, the year of "1972" has a comma both before and after.  I will look for the Wikipedia policy about this.  Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:56, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Here is the policy: Manual of Style.  It states as follows:


 * In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element unless followed by other punctuation. Dates in month–day–year format require a comma after the day, as well as after the year, unless followed by other punctuation. In both cases, the last element is treated as parenthetical.


 * {| role="presentation" style="background:transparent"


 * He set October 1, 2011, as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma, to meet his demands.
 * He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.
 * }
 * He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.
 * }
 * He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.
 * }


 * Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:00, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Does that apply to page titles, as opposed to complete sentences? MW131tester (talk) 09:10, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I believe so. We had a long discussion about this (for a different article, with the same "issue").  It was relatively recently.   The same exact issue arose.  About whether or not that MOS section also applied to article titles (as opposed to the text within a sentence).  I believe the response was "yes".  But, then, the article title was completely changed in its wording, anyway.  So, the decision about the (second) comma was moot (for that other article).  I will see if I can find that discussion.  Then, I will link it.  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Here is the link I was referring to: Talk:Schoharie limousine crash. Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:56, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * And here is the other link: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 209.  Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * When you say the title, you don't pause after Florida. That makes me think there shouldn't be a comma there. Jim Michael (talk) 17:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't believe that it's about "pausing" while reading. I believe that it's about the word being considered an appositive -- grammatically speaking -- as I stated above.  Thanks.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Do we need the "Florida" part at all? I'm assuming there wasn't another shooting in some other Sebring in 2019, so there would be no need to disambiguate? MW131tester (talk) 03:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * My vote would be to keep it in. No one has ever heard of Sebring, so the "Florida" in the title gives some context.  It's not a city name that stands on its own, such as Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Miami, etc.   Thanks.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 * What about the Norco shootout, which took place in a town of only about 20,000 people? What about the Woodburn bank bombing, which took place in a city of 24,000? MW131tester (talk) 00:24, 6 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I have never heard of either of those towns. Nor have most others, I assume.  I myself would not object to placing the state name within the article titles.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Take a look below as I have started a discussion about changing the title. Tinton5 (talk) 01:02, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Shooter
There's no info on the shooter in the section that’s supposed to be about him, I'm sure there's plenty of info on him now — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:8880:19B6:2445:3256:E2BB:B2F9 (talk) 00:36, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes. This article is essentially just – or, rather, still – a "stub".  It needs a lot more info added, including that which you suggested.  I edited the article to add the "stub" designation at the bottom.  Maybe that will attract some editors.  Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:34, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 6 February 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move the page to 2019 Sebring shooting at this time, per the discussion below, which also eliminates the need to dispute the comma. Dekimasu よ! 01:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

2019 Sebring, Florida, shooting → 2019 Sebring, Florida shooting – Comma after 'Florida' is not necessary. Other title possibilities could include: 2019 Sebring shooting; Sebring, Florida shooting; 2019 SunTrust Bank shooting or SunTrust Bank shooting. Tinton5 (talk) 00:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. It (the current title) is a typo. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 01:28, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * What, makes, you, say, that? MW131tester (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Haha. Good one. Tinton5 (talk) 01:56, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Touche. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 01:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Not sure how this is "snow closed"? I pointed out in the above section (named, simply, "Title") that the second comma is correct. And required by MOS. And a consensus was reached. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:23, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, normally isn't the discussion supposed to remain open a week or so? It's not like there were 15 "speedy supports" and no opposes. I would say you can just undo the close and we can resume the discussion for another six days or however long. I was leaning toward renaming it 2019 Sebring shooting anyhow, since that seems to be the more common convention, from the articles I've seen thus far. MW131tester (talk) 22:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , sure, I’m fine with reopening, looking at it a second time it could probably do with more discussion. I’m on mobile so I’ll just revert to it and histmerge this in later.  Thanks,   SITH   (talk)   23:42, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose – I have no problem if the article is renamed. However, if it remains as is, we need to keep that second comma. (1) The MOS controls.

Here is the policy: Manual of Style. It states as follows:


 * In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element unless followed by other punctuation. Dates in month–day–year format require a comma after the day, as well as after the year, unless followed by other punctuation. In both cases, the last element is treated as parenthetical.


 * {| role="presentation" style="background:transparent"


 * He set October 1, 2011, as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma, to meet his demands.
 * He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.
 * }
 * He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.
 * }
 * He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.
 * }

(2) The issue had arisen as to whether or not this MOS policy also applies to article titles (as opposed to simply text within articles). This came up at another article's Talk Page. And we also brought it over to the MOS Talk Page. Consensus was reached that the MOS policy controls over article titles, as well as article text.

We had a long discussion about this (for a different article, with the same "issue"). It was relatively recently. The same exact issue arose. About whether or not that MOS section also applied to article titles (as opposed to the text within a sentence). I believe the response was "yes". But, then, the article title was completely changed in its wording, anyway. So, the decision about the (second) comma was moot (for that other article). I will see if I can find that discussion. Then, I will link it. Thanks.

Here is the link I was referring to: Talk:Schoharie limousine crash. Thanks.

And here is the other link: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 209.

Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:32, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * So why is that article not called Schoharie, New York, limousine crash? MW131tester (talk) 04:48, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * At one point, indeed it was named that. But, the page went through several title changes (or, at least, proposals).  When the title was "Schoharie, New York, limousine crash", I made others aware of the need for the second comma.  In the end, a different title was suggested (and approved) that avoided the need for the second comma.  As I stated in my above post: But, then, the article title was completely changed in its wording, anyway.  So, the decision about the (second) comma was moot (for that other article).   Thanks.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * This link (Talk:Schoharie limousine crash) -- also posted above -- gives the details about the "twists and turns" involved in renaming that New York limousine crash article. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:42, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I decided to advertise this debate at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Criminal_Biography/Serial_Killer_task_force. Hey wait, this guy isn't even a serial killer, is he? I'm going to remove that WikiProject. MW131tester (talk) 15:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


 * You are posting what at that other link? The issue about whether or not there should be a second comma in this title?  Or the issue about renaming this article title, altogether (i.e., different wording that avoids the second comma)?  Also, this guy is, in fact, a serial killer.  Like you, I had thought that he was not.  But, when I read the details at that WikiProject, it does say that mass murderers are included within the WikiProject Serial Killers.  I guess the project is not exactly named accurately.  Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The introduction for WikiProject Serial Killers states: Welcome to the Serial Killer Task Force. ...  The goal of this task force is to update and maintain all articles relating to serial killers, mass murderers, and spree killers. This includes all topics from criminal biographies to profiling and apprehension techniques. Anyone with an interest in these subjects is welcome to join.   So, they include both mass murderers and spree killers.  So, this guy (Zephen A. Xaver) is a "mass murderer" and, therefore, within the Project scope.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:41, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess technically, unless all the victims died simultaneously, every mass killing is a serial killing. MW131tester (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


 * No. A "serial killer" is one who kills ... then takes some "time off" (a "cooling period") ... then kills again.  Then, cools again.  Then, kills again.  And so on.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * They might as well just call it "WikiProject Killers with Multiple Victims" or "WikiProject Serial and Spree Killers" then. Dang it, why'd you have to mention Spree, now I have a craving for those tart candies. MW131tester (talk) 13:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Move to 2019 Sebring shooting. No need for disambiguation. If the "Florida" is kept, however, then I fully support the retention of the comma. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:49, 12 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Inclusion of victim names
Victim names have been in this article for quite some time, with no problems or objections. In fact, they have been included in the article since day 1 ... since the article's inception ... January 24, 2019. A few days ago (October 4, 2019), an editor (WWGB) unilaterally removed them ... indicating that "to include them requires consensus". I disagree with this. My interpretation is that to make the proposed change now (i.e, to exclude them) would require consensus. That is, the status quo remains until consensus is achieved on the proposed change. Any thoughts? I have reverted the article back to its original state (i.e., including victim names) until a consensus is reached to exclude them. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:55, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

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Well !

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Sincerely, Dal Bahadur Gurung 2400:2651:D780:2C00:F8D9:942E:58C:C1B (talk) 13:25, 10 March 2022 (UTC)