Talk:25 or 6 to 4

Drug connection? (25 or 624)
DragoonWraith 21:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC): There's a reference to LSD-25, but 624 is also a drug. Apparently it's used to return to reality after a trip. *shrug* At least, that's how I always heard it, I don't have any sources. Anyone know more than I do?

(The following paragraph was originally posted on Bubba hotep's talk page) This being a very cryptic title for a song, the speculation regarding its meaning has always been associated with it. That is why the speculation is ADMITTED in the text of the meaning. The speculation has always been part of the nature and personality of the song. This is why it is included in the Wik page. Those who have followed Chicago over the years understand this, and that is why we are managing this page. Please trust us to do our job. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.150.49.51 (talk) 21:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I'd rather you managed the page with proper references. If there is a reliable source which states this speculation, then by all means add it, but until then it can stay out. The point of Wikipedia is that you don't have to have "followed something for years" to trust what is written on the page. And phrases like "that is why we are managing this page" makes it sound like nobody else can edit it. I'm sorry, that goes against what Wikipedia is about. Bubba hotep 22:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

W

The page has already been edited and is longstanding. You and your anonymous friend don't seem to understand this. Allow others to become involved besides yourselves, and do not eliminate the contributions of those that precede you.


 * Nobody owns this page. Show me the sources. Bubba hotep 22:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Let me back that - 1) nobody owns or manages this page - ANY wikipedian can edit it 2) Unsourced material, where another editor has asked for a source and it has not be supplied with be removed. --Fredrick day 22:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Time for the original author of this article to add his two cents' worth. As noted above, no one person or group of editors "owns" or "manages" a page. We also have a shared responsibility to include only independently-verifiable information, which is why my article stub only quoted Lamm on the song's meaning. All of us long-time Chicago fans have heard stories about possible drug-related meanings, but adding that information here without citing a source could be considered original research and thus can be deleted by anyone. Because the LSD rumors have been out there for a very long time, I wouldn't think it terribly difficult to find and quote a source that discusses the speculation. Until then, I agree with Bubba hotep and Fredrick day. -- Engineer Bob 00:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU, you have confirmed the long standing rumours and speculation associated with the meaning of the song, given its cryptic title. That is why this speculation is mentioned in the text...it has long been a part of the personality of the song, and readers should be made aware of this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.150.49.51 (talk • contribs).


 * You clearly misread my comment -- I agree that speculation about the song's meaning has long existed, but do NOT agree with adding UNSOURCED speculation to the article. It appears that Fredrick day has once again reverted your original research. -- Engineer Bob 21:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * They misread your comment on purpose, for which they have been blocked. Bubba hotep 21:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not original research because the suspected reference to LSD has existed for years (even decades). There is no harm in letting readers be aware of this. The lyrics clearly support this suspicion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.226.25.124 (talk • contribs).


 * I did some online searching tonight to try and find any reputable source(s) that would support the alleged LSD connection in this song -- and came up empty handed. The closest thing I could find to a reliable source does not support the drug rumors. Click Here Note that in the 1960s and 1970s it was popular to read things into the lyrics of nearly any rock song. -- Engineer Bob 06:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Kent State?
So, no mention in the behind-the-scenes page about the potential Kent State Massacre connection? That's what a friend's father told me the song was about, when I was a high-schooler in the mid-80s. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.1.70.221 (talk • contribs).

Guitar Solo
An expanded section of this article was deleted on the basis of WP:ATT So why keep this uncited section? 130.156.31.33 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 16:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:25 or 6 to 4.jpg
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BetacommandBot 14:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Drug connection?
graduating high school in the 70s and having personal experimence would validate the drug references. the reference to the straightdope.com website is a real stretch and the page ADMITS that it only speculates on the meaning of the lyrics as an alternative to drug interpretation. a reference to the lyrics would allow people to make their own inferences.

Lyrics:

Waiting for the break of day Searching for something to say Flashing lights against the sky Giving up I close my eyes Sitting cross-legged on the floor 25 or 6 to 4

Staring blindly into space Getting up to splash my face Wanting just to stay awake Wondering how much I can take Should I try to do some more 25 or 6 to 4

Feeling like I ought to sleep Spinning room is sinking deep Searching for something to say Waiting for the break of day 25 or 6 to 4 25 or 6 to 4

Interpretation:

Waiting for the break of day - typical LSD is "speedy", keeping one awake like a stimulant Searching for something to say - its hard to speak coherently while tripping Flashing lights against the sky - LSD trips vary from flashing lights to CCRs "looking out my backdoor" Giving up I close my eyes - limiting visual stimulation can Sitting cross-legged on the floor - not unusual with peyote or "passing the pipe"

Staring blindly into space - like my friend who dropped acid at Grateful Dead concerts Getting up to splash my face - we do that after sex, too. Wanting just to stay awake - to see more visuals, they change towards the end of the trip Wondering how much I can take - visuals? re next line? LSD has tolerance so 2X or 3X 1st dose Should I try to do some more - "some more" drugs. friends often extended LSD trip by taking more 25 or 6 to 4 - LSD25 or just "25" was alternates for LSD, Quaaludes had "624" on the pill, and often given to friends to help "come down" from a bad trip.

Feeling like I ought to sleep - crash hard staying up, hence take 624 Spinning room is sinking deep - sensory hallucination. straightdope.com doesn't explain how this relates to songwriting.

taking LSD during the day or at concerts was a bit different. drop before going to bed and it woke you up a few hours later to intense hallucinations fading into dreams. LSD was variable in its effect —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shjacks45 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hard Rock

 * How is this song Hard Rock. Hard Rock, to me I think of bands such as, Led Zeppelin, Rush, KISS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.207.149 (talk) 21:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

LOOK>>>>> todd hollabaughs theory: I think it has drug overtures for sure. It is 25 mins before 4am or if you are laying on the bed looking up at a wall clock it looks 6 mins to 4 mins after 12. Losing total reality of time including deciphering between hours and minutes. As far as I know I am the only person to figure it out.

Led Zeppelin - Babe I'm Gonna Leave You riff
I think it should be mentioned in the article that the main riff of 25 or 6 to 4 is almost identical to the riff used by Led Zeppelin in the chorus of their version of "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You," which was released two years prior.

You may find it interesting, that the Led Zeppelin riff was taken off of the Beatles 'While My Guitar Gently Weeps', in 1968 - a year prior to Led Zeppelin I. Eric Clapton played on the main riff, and was in connections with Jimmy Page through the Yardbirds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.44.210.54 (talk) 02:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * other songs to add to the list:
 * Foolish Game - Chris Isaac
 * Sing - MCR
 * Reptilia - The Strokes
 * Burning - Yeah Yeah Yeahs Xinpheld (talk) 18:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Even more similar is the song "Black Sally," which was released three months earlier than "25 or 6 to 4" and definitely merits mention.

It's also similar to Green Day's "Brain Stew". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.226.118 (talk) 20:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The Hardest Button to Button- The White Stripes. And many, many others. I don't think it's worth mentioning. Popular rock has reused the same riffs for 60 years. This isn't the only progression. This one sticks out due to it's crunchy simplistic downward scaling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.98.69 (talk) 00:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually the Beatles' White Album came out in November 1968. Led Zeppelin I was recorded in October 1968 so no copying there. "25 or 6 to 4" was recorded in August 1969, a full 8 months after Led Zeppelin I was released. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmoledMan (talk • contribs) 23:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

"Wah wah pedal" ? "jazz/rock fusion" ? How about wah pedal, the omission of which hereby relegates "your" band to 'brass-pop' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.213.196 (talk) 00:41, 16 June 2012 (UTC) _________________________________________________________________________________________ I was listening to an interview with Hamm years ago and he said that he was outside in the early morning hours when he noticed a Bank sign with the time and temp on it. It was 25 degrees and the time was 3:54 (6 to 4). Reika505nm (talk) 03:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * i like this theory. his claim in the article that it means "25 or 26 to 4" fails on 2 counts -- ppl rarely express times around x:35 as "25 to/of"...usually those only kick in for the last 15 (sometimes 20) mins of the hour.  not 25.  much less 26!
 * and while someone CAN express "25 or 26" as "25 or 6" in casual speech, the meter of the song seems all off. it comes off as "25 or (6 to 4)" rather than "(25 or 6) to 4", no?
 * i accept his explanation that it's about time rather than some weird drug theory, but the time in question is clearly 3:54 (HOWEVER u tack the "25" on) not 3:34 or 3:35. 209.172.23.169 (talk) 08:28, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Blues Brothers
Is this the song the Blues Brothers attempt to open their performance with at the truck stop, before getting booed off the stage? If so, does that count as a cover version?67.122.209.117 (talk) 17:47, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

No, the Blues Brothers try to start with "Gimme Some Lovin'" by the Spencer Davis Group. Beanhead McGinty (talk) 10:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

In popular culture
In case we ever make an ==In popular culture== section, we might include this. VH-1 Classic's show, That Metal Show, Season 12, Episode 1, aired June 1, 2013, Jason Newsted (former bassist of Metallica) says that this song has the first riff he learned to play. — Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 08:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

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Leonid & Friends
Yes I know it's a redlink but not likely to remain one, see User:Andrewa/Leonid & Friends. Andrewa (talk) 21:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Line Cliché
The "riff" is a descending minor line cliche, that's why it's compared to other songs as they're all doing the same thing. There isn't an English article to link but found this https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_Clich%C3%A9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.116.98.182 (talk) 07:55, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

12-string guitars don't (generally) have two low "E" strings
QUOTE (as of the date-and-time of this comment, the text below is in the article): In a 2013 interview, Robert Lamm said he composed "25 or 6 to 4" on a twelve-string guitar with only ten strings—it was missing the two low E strings—and that he wrote the lyrics in one day. UNQUOTE The pair of strings that is closest to the ceiling (if the 12-string guitar is held typically) consists of two strings an octave apart. Only one of them is low. If those are the two strings that were missing, say so. But this kind of thing is why I take Wikipedia under advisement instead of believing that it's authoritative.2600:1700:6759:B000:E894:BFCC:705D:880 (talk) 07:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Christopher Lawrence Simpson