Talk:ABADÁ-Capoeira

BEFORE EDITING THIS ARTICLE!!
Major Content Edits: One note about editing content: If you are affiliated with ABADÁ, I recommend passing any huge changes through an Instructor/a or higher before posting them. EDS4 (talk) 05:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

We at ABADÁ-Capoeira are proud and meticulous about our code of conduct, ethics, philosophies, and principles. We ask that anyone who is editing for content please approach a member of ABADÁ-Capoeira on this discussion page (like myself), or else get approval from a member of ABADÁ-Capoeira of the rank of at least Instrutor/a or above. Also make sure to cite any sources that you are using, even if indirectly paraphrasing. And then if you could just let us know on this discussion page, then sign your posts.

Anyone who is editing for grammar, flow, wikify purposes, etc... please just let us know in this discussion page, and sign your posts. Ryt 007 (talk) 23:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Archiving
As this discussion page has grown and become somewhat unruly, I have begun archiving all month old AND resolved information into the archive template. Anything that is still in the works or being discussed will not be moved. If something is discussed that has been mentioned before, please inform this user to see the archives and come back to the discussion with any further questions or comments. Ryt 007 (talk) 18:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Camisa and Globe pictures
Both images (Mestre Camisa, and the ABADÁ-Capoeira globe icon) were downloaded from a google image search on the internet by myself. I do not know if I actually have the right to do this. I'm pretty sure the fact that I could get them and download them like this, means they are free content, and therefore legal for me to use. The globe was downloaded from the ACRPI website, that I am in fact a facilitator of (being an officer of the club). I believe I have the ultimate rights to it, and it should be fine. I'm not sure if there's anything more I can find on the topic. Please advise if I should change the way I used these. I'm sure that I'm not using images right, and I don't know how to gain permission or whatever. Help! Ryt 007 (talk) 04:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I just found out that I am in fact not using the images correctly. I have attempted to upload the images again, creating new names for them and using the correct licensing information. I have also tried to file for deleting the old files that do not have the correct information. I thought it said something about waiting to process the requests. So I am waiting to see if anything happens. I don't think anything will. I probably have to go fix this myself. I have no idea how to though... Ryt 007 (talk) 19:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * About the images. They are great and I like them and want to keep them up but we really need permission to use them.  We can ask someone if we can get permission to use the ABADÁ logo and put it up. We need to ask explicit permission using a form as provided on this page: Requesting copyright permission.  So you figure out where the image came from, contact that source and see if we can use the image.  I can ask ABADÁ-SF if we can use the logo or not.EDS4 (talk) 04:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yup, I know what you're referring to. I will work on it. I don't know exactly the process. Maybe you can help me out, I know where I found the images. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 16:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I sent an email to the owner of the Mestre Camisa image. I copied some of the example text from that WP article about requesting copyright permission. Hopefully everything works out and the person gets back to me. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 00:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I don't know what to do about the globe image. I found it at the RPI website, but the person who created the website and used the image is not around anymore. How do I get a license for this image? ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 00:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's on RPI's webpage so they own the rights to the image. Get permission from them.  I can email you the form for permissions if you like? EDS4 (talk) 19:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I am a part of ACRPI, so can't I just post the picture myself? Or do I need to go to our president, web master, etc... If you could email me the form, that would be a start. I have emailed everyone at Mestre Camisa's image website, none of them work. I cannot contact them, does this mean we have to take the picture off? ~  DominusMichael  &#124; Talk 12:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You need explicit permission in writing/email from the group head for wikimedia commons to approve the image officially if it is not your own. OTRS Here you will find a section explaining permission and a template that you can email to the head of ACRPI.  I would suggest asking them for GDFL/GNU Free Documentation License. EDS4 (talk) 08:13, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Additional pictures
Waiting for pictures to hopefully come back from the Batizado at Arte Capoeira. If we get them, we will probably use them in the article. Ryt 007 (talk) 23:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I am currently in the process of getting explicit permission/licensed permission from "Agua Viva" and Mestranda Cigarra to use the cord images from a newsletter done by ABADÁ-SF. I have the files in a format that wiki can use. Once I have their explicit written permission I will add the files under the cat. of capoeira to the wikicommons page and then put the up on the table. This should not take much time; Just waiting on permission. EDS4 (talk) 23:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have permission to use the images and have sent it in to wikicommons. However, Mestranda Cigarra has requested that if we put up images of the cords we also need to put up pictures for white-red and white cord levels.  I do not have these images.  I have asked "Agua Viva" to make those images, but I'm not sure if she can.  I will add the images I have to wikicommons and will put them up when we have all of the images including the white-red and white cords.  Márcia explictly requested that we have all cords up or no cords (in terms of graphics).EDS4 (talk) 20:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Take your time, put them all up whenever you get the last images. Let me know if you need any help uploading them or something. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 12:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have the images up under our gallery (after lots of botched attempts). There are cord images everywhere.  I marked ones I messed up on for immediate deletion.  I have the two missing images and I have to get permission, then I will upload them, and then I can add all of them to the chart at the same time (Márcia's instructions).EDS4 (talk) 00:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Images are up. If you want to play around with the way they show up in the table, I'm cool with that.  I just wanted to get them up. EDS4 (talk) 02:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * They look fantastic. I moved them over one column, and retitled the headings. Other than that, I think the size is perfect. We can leave it how it is now. We do not have a true natural color cord. All we have is the white mestre. I deleted the text for the image on the natural cord, because we don't have one, it was showing up as a red link. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 12:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Dead links in References / Works Cited
Dead links: All dead links have been weeded out. We will have to keep tabs on this. As schools change their webpages the citation links will need to be updated. I can keep tabs on this for the time being. EDS4 (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Expanding Content
I will be adding in some content, making the page much more full of information. Also will be adding pictures, once I figure out how to better use the ones that are currently up. All in all, it will make the article much more informative. Main things are adding pictures to the cord system, adding pictures to the Mestres and Mestrandos, and maybe expanding the family tree a bit. We'll see how far I will go with it. Ryt 007 (talk) 02:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * One note about editing content: If you are affiliated with ABADÁ, I recommend passing any huge changes through an Instructor/a or higher before posting them. EDS4 (talk) 05:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't touched content yet. But I can do that. I will type up a word document and send it to an Instutor of mine from ACNYC if I need to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.206.62 (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I want to improve the Mestrando / Mestre sections to include which schools they teach at, and where they are located. Kind of like the external link section. Maybe it can be a completely separate section. List the name of the school, where it is located, who teaches there, important dates, etc... Ryt 007 (talk) 13:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I want to add information to the infobox. Anything is great. Main thing we are missing now, are specific dates. All we have is a year of origin (is this even correct), and a year of Camisa's birth (is it correct)? We need to find accurate sources that have this information (not easy, especially with the topic of Capoeira!!!). Ryt 007 (talk) 14:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The year of ABADÁ's founding by Camisa is correct. It appears on all webpages associated with ABADÁ as 1988.  And this date was approved by Mestranda Cigarra.  Camisa and Camisa Roxa had been involved in capoeira long before that time.  Camisa was teaching in Rio before then, but he did not found ABADÁ until 1988.  So unless we dig up something different, yes it is 1988.EDS4 (talk) 04:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The year of Camisa's birth, I'm not sure. On ABADÁ DC's English page Camisa Bio ABADÁ DC it says he was 16 in 1972, so that would infer that he was born around 1956.  Would be good to get a citation for that fact.EDS4 (talk) 04:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * We may be able to add some content from the magazine from ACNYC ABADA Times. I also would like to add talk about how we play Angola and Regional, with reference to the article on Capoeira Angola. We can talk about how our Batizado is different than other groups, with mention of the Batizado article. Not all groups get cords, and most are different colors. The capoeira article is a good place to get ideas on how to word this. Ryt 007 (talk) 21:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

When I requested the cord images, ABADÁ-SF looked at the cord section and edited it, adding Grao Mestre. They did not provide a citation for this. EDS4 (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah. I was wondering about that edit. Makes sense. See if you can find a reference to cite that edit. I don't really know enough to comment on the content. If it is not verifiable though, it should not be written down on our article. In other words, if we can't find a citation for it, then it needs to be deleted unfortunately. Talk to your friends at ACSF is my best advice. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 12:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikification
Major current need of the article: I am going to attempt a run through of the wikification process. Already started working on the lead. So what needs to get done are the following: add any appropriate internal links (getting rid of unncessary ones), fix external links and see also sections, re order section headings if appropriate, expand the lead paragraph. Once these are done, I may add a maintenance tag, remove wikify tag, and add my edits to the page summary. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 17:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Section headings and order
I want to change around the sequence of the sections / ordering. History should be first in an article like this. We don't really have a separate history section. Grao mestre might also want to be mentioned before Mestre Camisa, not sure. This to do item might have to be cleared through the content method of checking with an instructor. Not sure yet... Ryt 007 (talk) 14:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Several thoughts. On putting history first.  Some pages do this, other don't, such as Aikido.  I think if the lead is better and has a bit more about what distinguishes ABADÁ, then yeah we can put history first.  In this case we probably need to write a history section, maybe only a paragraph or two, because I don't think we want all of that infomation about the Mestres to come before the Style, Philo., and Standards.  And yes, maybe Grao Mestre Camisa Roxa should go first.  We put Mestre Camisa first as he is the founder, but since Camisa Roxa has a higher title it would make more sense for him to go first.  Roxa appears first on the ABADÁ brazil official page, so that might be something to follow.  If we write an new history section and switch around the order we need to get permission.EDS4 (talk) 05:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Their is no text under the section heading "Style, Standards, and Philosophy". I have a feeling this is against layout guidelines. I will look into this and further wikify later. ~  DominusMichael  &#124; Talk 13:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Style, Standards, and Philosophy" is a general heading for the three "disting." aspects of ABADÁ which are separately described below. I don't think it will be a problem.  Check out the heading "Preview" in the feat. article Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics – Men's road race as an example where wiki approves of such use.  There is not text imm. below it as it is a heading for several topics.EDS4 (talk) 08:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Good work. I agree. ~  DominusMichael  &#124; Talk 19:56, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Internal Links
Cleaned up and added a bunch of links. View the revision history of the article for more details. Not anywhere close to finished yet. PS this is Ryt 007, I just changed my user name appearance. ~  DominusMichael  &#124; Talk 13:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I just took out a link that someone put up for Mestranda Edna Lima. This is nothing against Mestranda Edna or the link itself.  The problem is this:  When I first posted the ABADÁ page I had links for almost all the mestrando/as school on the chart.  The presences of the links made the page immed. fail the Wiki post criteria.  A wiki editor told me to take out the links as it was advertising.  I took out the links, posted the page again, and it passed.  So the rule we have decided for the page is minimial links to school's pages, not because we personally don't want them there, but because they don't meet wiki criteria.  To be impartial, if we put the link to one mestranda/o's school we need to put them up for all of their schools.  And if we do this the page will be shut down by a wiki editor.  So again, please no links within the text of the article. ThanksEDS4 (talk) 22:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Lead Section
The lead section could be improved. See wikify suggestions. Ryt 007 (talk) 19:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * WP Lead Section guidelines suggest two or three paragraphs for an article our size (quite large). Consider addding / expanding the lead section with more material relevant to our sections. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 18:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

See Also and External Links
I removed most of the see also links. Anything that is already stated in the article should not be mentioned in see also (as stated in layout guidelines for wikification), which got rid of a lot of links. Please discuss any disagreements.

I also removed most of the external links for schools. Here is my basis: if we listed all abada schools here, the list would be way too long, and irrelevant. If we list one school, we must list all. Also, anything that has been listed in the references lists should not be in external links, removing pretty much all websites that are verifiable, which could be every school potentially. Below is the list of the links I removed, if anyone wants to keep them, please discuss.


 * ABADÁ-Capoeira London, UK (further information on ABADÁ-Capoeira London)
 * ABADÁ-Capoeira Porto - Portugal
 * ABADÁ-Capoeira Raleigh, NC
 * ABADÁ-Capoeira Australia

The first link is the only one I found when I did a google search for "ABADÁ-Capoeira" and checked out only the first five pages. I added the website for ABADÁ-Capoeira Porto - Portugal because it was also their. The NC and Au websites are there just because I also removed them. I'm sure their are many more schools, hence why we shouldn't have these links lists. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 19:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Mestrando Tucano Preto
Did anyone else see that someone took Mestrando Tucano Preto off of the chart? Check out the "history" tab. They claim that Tucano Preto is no longer a member of ABADA. Is this true? Anyone know what happened, and care to fill me in?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.206.62 (talk) 23:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I will try to find out what happened. EDS4 (talk) 05:32, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Sonho confirmed the above for me. He "left ABADA in 2005". I think I will be updating the content in the article to reflect this. Ryt 007 (talk) 23:21, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have inserted a line talking about how Mestrando Tucano Preto was a Mestrando and left ABADÁ-Capoeira in 2005. Any chance we can add in the biographical information on him? Even though he's not in the chart anymore, he is a part of our history, and I think we should mention his origins. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 12:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we should check to make sure it's ok for us to put info about him up because someone obviously took him completely off for a reason. He's not with ABADÁ now so we might step on some people's toes.  We should check first.EDS4 (talk) 21:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Eh, I know what you're talking about, because in the world of AC, everyone want's to be respectful of the upper ranks. In this case, I feel like we have an obligation to write at least a line or two about him. Wikipedia is to be written from NPOV, and if we are to do that without bias, we are to report the facts just as they are. Mestrando Tucano Preto is a part of our history. It doesn't matter if people don't like that he left and is no longer a part of us (I believe that's what you were referring to when you said "stepping on toes", correct me if I'm wrong). What matters is that he was a part of us at one time, and therefore I think he should be mentioned at least. You can ask Marcia, but I'm going to leave it as is, unless people strongly disagree with me. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 12:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, good point about the NPOV.EDS4 (talk) 00:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Wiktionary
I want to add a wiktionary link. Format seen in edit. Ryt 007 (talk) 17:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Aikido
I have been using the Aikido page to restructure our article. Aikido is a featured article, extremely impressive. If we can make this article and Capoeira look like that, we are amazing. Ryt 007 (talk) 17:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, that good idea to use Aikido as a template. And I think you have a great goal.  Let's go for a star! We can try, even if we don't make it the result will be a great page!EDS4 (talk) 04:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Red links / creating pages
Their is an ABADA alaska group for alcoholism. Could be worthwhile to create an ABADA disambiguation page. Ryt 007 (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have created a page for Mestre Camisa. It is only a stub article: meaning that it does not have a lot of information, and still needs a lot of work, and possibly better references. I didn't really check this with anyone in AC, but I figured for now, it's not a big deal. I mostly took stuff off of our AC article, and the Camisa article in Portuguese. Feel free to improve the page, or go check it out. I'm going to create more pages on other pertinent topics as needed. If we are okay with this page, we should start linking to it, instead of the external Portuguese article. Lots of potential here. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 18:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I want to create a Grao Mestre Camisa Roxa page, and a CEMB page next. I'd like to hear some thoughts on what I am doing first though.


 * I have been linking pages in other languages about ABADA to this article. I want to create articles in Portuguese (currently a redirect to Capoeira), Spanish, and Italian. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 16:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have fixed all links and formatting in our article to direct to our newly created Mestre Camisa page, instead of the portuguese page. The portuguese page is still accessible as a language listed on the left hand side of the newly created Camisa page. ~  Ryt 007  &#124; Talk 18:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Camisa Roxa page
I am creating a Camisa Roxa page. It's my next project, but it's kind of difficult. I'm pretty sure we have spelled his name wrong. I'm not sure, I believe it is supposed to be Edvaldo Carneiro e Silva, not da Silva. ~  DominusMichael  &#124; Talk 19:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's great. Yeah, you could be right about the spelling.  ABADÁ ACNYC spells it one way and ABADÁ-DC another.  When you have a final version pass it through an instructor or something to make sure the content is okay.  Thanks.EDS4 (talk) 19:17, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

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