Talk:Abbas Babaei

Stop Adding Propaganda to this Article
I write this post to address a major problem this article is encountering. For some reason an editor who goes by their IP address is engaging in an edit war as they wish to include some content inappropriate for this article. This is an article about a person who was killed in the fairly recent past, it is not appropriate to include slander in the article aimed at giving him a bad name. In Wikipedia it is not appropriate to use this site for personal goals or adhering to some objective. Wikipedia is not the place to spread slander on someone, just because of their nationality! Such comments labeling someone as "merciless" and "notorious" especially when the person is so highly valued by so many people is disrespecting a large populations belief. Such actions are absolutely unacceptable on Wikipedia. Such a statement is so purely opinion based, it is NOT fact based. As the editor claims it is from a well known analyst about the Iran-Iraq war, this does not matter this is a factual article about a person and not about the opinions on a "well known" analyst of the Iran-Iraq war. I repeat and wish to make it clear, as long as I am on Wikipedia I will make sure the articles I work on are clean from any political motivation or slander. Hooperag (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Pal,

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat'' by Tom Cooper & Farzad Bishop, 2004, Oxford: Osprey Publishing, p. 23, ISBN 1 84176 787 5

Try reading page 23.

Tom Cooper & Farzad Bishop are two of the foremost experts on the Iran-Iraq air war.

Know why?

Because no one else is crazy enough to try to get legitmate information out of these two countries. According to Cooper Iraq was bombed to a cinder and very little info is left and Iran is controled by zealots.

But ... luckily, former Iranian pilots have been an excellent and most honest and heartfelt source of data (and they were darn good aviators!)

That is where this emperical evidence comes from.

Now, can you provide any?

PLAGARISM
Pal,

Need I point out that, from the beginning, you have been lifting your text directly from a fanboy site.

It was I who edited it so that, at least, it was readable.

STOP PLAGARIZING!

Edits
You know what... who cares... Leave your propaganda wherever you like. I have a real life and don't want to waste more time on this. Good luck with your future edits,Hooperag (talk) 01:21, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Dumb guy
No offence IP guy, but what's your problem. You call my sources fan boy sites, I guess in your opinion the only valid source for the Iran-Iraq war is western ones that are biased against Iran. Like Fox News, or some western journalist names Tom Cooper. Listen in Iran this guy is considered a hero, that is no lie. You know it's weird to see how strongly you feel this negative statement about him needs to be in the article. Hooperag (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC) - Biased against Iran, are you crazy, or more importantly, have you read his work? It is the Iraqis that are upset, because Cooper shows how well the IIRAF faught. Of course, this may be a by-product of the fact that much more information has been published in Iran and former IIRAF pilots (expatriates) have been generous in sharing their war experiences. But, make no mistake, the Iranian F-14 Tomcat, firing the AIM-54 missile, ruled the skies. Many Iranian aviators were great pilots, true modern aces. The Iraqis often didn't know what hit them (literally.)

And yes, those Iranian sites you use are as biased as the day is long. Not worth the bandwidth. I don't care if Abbas Babaei is a hero, he was "merciless." And I guess all that matters in the end is ... did he succeed? Well, in part he did. Iran didn't lose the war. Good leaders sometimes have to be ruthless (Patton, Rommel, Chuikov, Henry V, Grant & Sherman, etc.)

And yes, I feel strongly about empirical evidence and the truth. I hear that is not the case in Iran (Did you know that 2 years ago the IRGC decided, unilaterally, that their air defense units were now responsible for destroying all Iraqi MiG25s during the war? It was on Iranian TV. Rewriting history, just like in 1984. Great way to honour IIRAF pilots, no?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.217.198 (talk) 02:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

New Proposal
Listen, I don't feel the passage you keep adding about Abbas Babaei is a fair representation of his character, that passage categorizes him in a way that may not truly represent his character. I don't know how much you know about Abbas Babaei, but others say different things about his character, things far from being "merciless". However I know in Wikipedia compromises must be made so therefore I offer the following solution: The word "merciless" is subjective however you put it, whether from a famous historian or from a fellow pilot, in this article about Abbas Babaei all info should be purely fact based. If you would like you can create a new section in his article called "Character", there you add your statement but you must do it appropriately so all readers can tell it is a subjective statement, and not pure fact. Think about it, someone can seem "merciless" to you but not to me... You see even if it is from interviews conducted by a famous very credible historian the passage reflects subjective feelings. If you really feel the passage needs to be included it should include more context, for example: "According to the famous historian Tom Cooper whom interviewed various Iranian pilots, Abbas Babaei was considered "merciless" in his treatment towards pilots disloyal to the new regime". So you see, even if you like to include your statement, then there is a proper way to do so, we should not fight like barbarians over edits. I hope this issue becomes resolved, and you accept this proposal of mine. Regards, Hooperag (talk) 03:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

'''The article is not about his character. It is about what he did, the truth.'''

And I think it should be included because it seems to be the only empircal evidence out there. For a famous war hero, not many people write about Babaei. Strange, eh? I have seen the "martyr" video on Youtube. Hey, he met Ayatollah Khomeini!

More Evidence
Found some more evidence by Tom Cooper, I missed it because he spelt the last name differently.

Found here: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_214.shtml


 * IRIAF Maj. Jalal Zandi known as an excellent pilot, but often described as “brazen”, continued his career with IRIAF, in spite of frequent – and fierce – disagreements with Col. Abbas Baba’ie, an officer differently described as the “mastermind of IRIAF’s capability to keep its F-14-fleet intact”, or simply a “war hero”. There are, however, numerous former IRIAF pilots who not only deny that Baba’ie ever even qualified on F-14s, but also outright refuse to even mention his name, most likely because of his close cooperation with the clerical regime in Tehran. Zandi survived all his differences with Baba’ie, and numerous air battles with Iraqi Air Force, to claim a total of nine confirmed (through examination with US intelligence documents released according to FOIA inquiry) and two or three probable kills. It is possible that he scored between eleven and 12 air-to-air victories, thus becoming the most successful F-14-Tomcat pilot ever, and certainly the leading IRIAF ace. He retired only a couple of years ago with the rank of Lieutenant General, but died in a car accident, in 2001.

Interesting, it may be worth quoting most of this passage. On one hand it seems Babaei was credited with being a resourceful commander. On the other he was so despised that other pilots claim he was lying about being a F-14 pilot. You're funny, I thought I could reason with you. Looks like that won't be happening anytime soon. Do you not notice that you're so self conceited that you're out right lying to yourself. Abbas was moved to the Esfehan air base to fly F-14's because he was a skilled pilot... and guess what... that was before the revolution, during the Shahs time, at a time where clerics in Iran were political prisoners and being exiled! Do you want to solve this issue, or just keep bolstering up your ego? Hooperag (talk) 05:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC) You know what I'm suspicious of your behavior, it seems you're only goal is to spark a problem, and discord. Please don't play this childish game. Hooperag (talk) 05:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand your point, and have not the first idea what you are on about. Game? Obviously you're confused, if you weren't you would have accepted my proposal (or at least responded to it) as it is essentially what you want. Instead of trying to resolve this issue you responded back with more of your comebacks and nonsense of how Abbas Babaei may not have even ever flown an F-14. My question for you now is, Do you want to solve this problem? If you would like to I'm ready to cooperate. If not then I don't want to waste my time and your time. Hooperag (talk) 06:12, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I have no intention of co-operating with you. You have been rude and insulting, you have plagiarized and are totally inconsistent. You seem to not understand the legitimacy of my posts or the purpose of wikipedia. All you care about is singing the praises of Abbas Babaei like you own this site. Well, you don't.

When the article is unblocked I will make my edits. I will, most certainly, CONSIDER YOUR SUGGESTION and incorporate it into my contribution.

And I ask you: did you ever see Abbas Babaei fly an F-14? If so, exactly when? Do you have any empirical proof he was an F-14 pilot? I await ...

Otherwise, I will have little or nothing to do with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.217.198 (talk) 06:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Resolution Must be Made
I have been an observer of this article on Abbas Babei since the start of this conflict. I want to point out that we this issue needs to be solved otherwise both users will face blocks. Hooperag has offered a proposal that makes logical sense, Imagine this was the article of Barack Obama, we can't just say: "Obama is notorious for his merciless treatment towards the minters of parliament who oppose his policies" (that's a totally random example, but whatever). It is more appropriate that if you wish to include a subjective statement like "Babaei was "notorious for his merciless treatment of the pilots and officers" considered disloyal to the new regime", you include some background info on who made that statement (add more context). The word "merciless" is very subjective (opinion based) and if it is to be used you can't use it as if it was fact based, when you say "Babaei was notorious for his merciless treatment of the pilots and officers" you are making a strong statement about him that makes it seem as if it is a 100% true fact that he was merciless.

For these reasons I suggest we rephrase the sentence to be something along the lines of Hooperag's suggestion whish was to rephrase it something like this: "According to the famous historian Tom Cooper whom interviewed various Iranian pilots, Abbas Babaei was considered "merciless" in his treatment towards pilots disloyal to the new regime".

I wish to make it clear that I do not endorse any party, neither Hooperag nor the IP. However the proposal sounds reasonable and has been the only proposal to resolve this dispute so far. If this issue is not resolved with in the next 24 hours or so and the conflict continues, I will request to an admin that both users be blocked. 134.39.77.59 (talk) 17:17, 26 February 2014 (UTC) 134.39.77.59 (talk) 17:17, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, give me a break, this is so transparent it is see-through. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.217.198 (talk) 17:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

RADAR INTERCEPT OFFICER?
Boy, researching this person is frustrating, and interesting.

I think Babaei was a RIO.

On one hand we have evidence from Tom Cooper, which he has determined is valid, that Babaei may not have even qualified as a F-14 Tomcat pilot. Well, what do we know? There seems to be some photographic evidence that he was a Northrup F-5 pilot, but this could have been staged promo shots. Regardless, this is credible because the F-5 was a much easier jet to fly than the F-4 Phantom and, especially, the variable wing F-14.

Now, this site has previously presented photographic evidence (later corrected) that said that Babaei was the RIO in a F-4 (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Country-By-Country/iranian_f_4_phantom_losses.htm)

And there is the matter of his death. Babaei died, on July 4, 1987, while in the rear seat of a F-5B (Iran did get 2 of them from the USA initially) while over Iraqi air space. He was hit by a 23mm round. The pilot, Maj. Ali Mohammad Naderi managed to land the jet, but Babaei died within 10 minutes. This makes perfect sense, as the Iraqis used the ZSU-23 (23mm.) It makes the claim of friendly fire a bit harder to understand, as the Iranian were using US type AA at this time, tho the ZSU-23 may have been some of the first hardware the USSR shipped to Iran (trying to play both sides of the war.)

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Country-By-Country/iranian_f_5_losses_any_ejections.htm

Now, my question is ... what was a Major General doing in the back seat of a F-5 while a Major flew it over a combat zone? This is very strange to say the least.

What I would suggest is that Babaei never qualified as a pilot for the F-4 or F-14, he was a RIO. Now don't get me wrong, the RIO was a vital crewman, especially as the Tomcat had the powerful AWG-9 radar that dominated the skies. But make NO MISTAKE, the RIO was NOT the pilot.

All of this is all the more confusing because it seems to be surrounded by Iranian politics. Babaei is called a martyr and even has a TV show about him, maybe because he worked so closely with the clerics in Tehran, as Cooper notes. Anyways, you don't see all this, or any TV shows, for Jalil Zandi, and he was one of the greatest jet fighter pilots, ever.

Something stinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.217.198 (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Tom Cooper
No reliable sources are provided that indicate Tom Cooper is an "expert" etc. In the absence of such sources, such WP:POV descriptions of Cooper and his work should not be included. For the time being, I am willing to accept that his book is a WP:RS on the subject.

Incidentally, is this the same person as Tom "Berty" Cooper? Some of the latter's work has similar themes of aerial warfare etc. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Death
If an Iranian flying in a combat aircraft over Iraq is killed by a 23mm round, and the Iraqis used the ZSU-23 self-propelled, radar guided anti-aircraft weapon system (SPAAG) at the time, how was his death "by mistake"?Royalcourtier (talk) 06:06, 30 January 2015 (UTC)