Talk:Abbas ibn Firnas

Clear-up
I reverted a bit of heavy editing, with great trepidation; without a doubt, the article needs a heavy edit, and many problem aspects were addressed- but without, I think, a needed degree of discretion.--Mavigogun (talk) 10:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I did not expect that all my editing would be outright accepted, but as the article now stands I think we agree it is a mess. The main problems lie in the pseudo-objective representation of facts and references:


 * Lynn White (which I have here) is a bit creatively cited in that the impression is given that he attributed the 'inventions' to Abbas, when he actually paraphrased Ahmed Mohammed al-Maqqari (p. 101).
 * White makes it clear that al-Maqqari is the only source for the flight and that the time gap is 750 years (101).
 * Most of the rest I removed is either double material already dealt with by White or relies on the Aramco reference whose style, diction and complete lack of bibliography quite obviously reveal it being a semi-fictional narrative account.
 * I would say our goal should be trying to base each and every statement on scholarly, third-party references and this is what I tried to do. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:18, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hello. The information available on Abbas Ibn Firnas is scant so let's review once again what is available. I do not have White's book so I will accept your offering to improve the article with it and pay close attention to the name(s) quoted by the sources (also, see the discussion above by user Eric Kvaalen regarding the name translation). First, I have a question on your use of the words "attribute" and "quote": Do I understand correctly that L. White quotes historian Ahmed Mohammed al-Maqqari (Abu-l-'Abbas Ahmad ibn Mohammed al-Maqqari,) who atributes the "glider" to Abbas Ibn Firnas?
 * Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 01:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I added a list of contemporary memorials from a previous version, editing for neutralityMavigogun (talk) 07:28, 5 July 2009 (UTC).


 * I add below a verbatim quotation. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

merger from Armen Firman
After the closing of Articles for deletion/Armen Firman it seemed the best move was to merge Firman's article here and make it clear that there is substantial doubt as to whether he was actually a separate individual at all. I've gone ahead and edited the content and merged it here. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur. I worked out why there is reason to doubt the existence of Armen Firman (a strong argument from silence based on several scholarly works). Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The AF section reads like a conclusion- a personal summation of the editor's estimation.  With minor rewording, it could serve the same end without the semblance of OR.Mavigogun (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't find any OR, it is merely an attempt to explain an argument from silence in a logical manner to the reader. But go ahead. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 02:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Misuse of sources
This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup4. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.

A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order. Johnuniq (talk) 11:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Abbas Ibn Firnas:


 * Checked diffs. I know the article has long been attended to by at least one attentive editor, so any chance of encountering any remaining big Jaggedisms was rather slim. However, I remove one claim inserted by Jagged which corresponds to Cause of concern no. 3 and three further ones lacking any source which I could not substantiate. Please feel free to restore these claims whe you've found sufficient evidence for them to be true. For more background information, please see RFC/U and Cleanup. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Strange
I have tried to remove OR from the section on Amen Firmin. Would help if I had sight of the sources. I am not sure if we can call him an aviator, any more than we can call Elmer one. All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 06:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC).

Arab or Berber?
In the first line, the text says that Ibn Firnas was "Arab-Muslim", offering two sources. I contest both: first, they are not scientific literature but just popular web resources with no known authorship and second, non of them says actually that Ibn Firnas was personally "Arab-Muslim", although of course he was part of the wider Arab-Muslim civilization, which is not contested and should be clear by the "Umayyad" context. Later in the text it is said again that he was of Arab descent, which needs a source, but none is given (I doubt that a generic mention in a popular US Radio show qualifies as source). I've replaced the wording by a cautelous "sometimes be said of Berber descent", with a link to a Moroccan print media, which does not give any details either but at least has a undubious wording of the claim as such. I foresee debates about this point, thanks for explaining your position. Ilyacadiz (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Infobox image
I removed it per this discussion:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:17, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Remove redundant content
I removed some content from a set of recent edits that repeated most of the article, with a few changes. These cnaged not only introduced a slew of redundant content but also intoduced several dozen referencing errors. I've reverted them, since that seems like the easiest fix. -- Mikeblas (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out and fixed it. It was a mobile edit, therefore that massive error occurred and couldn't notice. Regards.83.137.6.246 (talk) 13:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

The original source on Abbas Ibn Firnas' supposed flight attempt
What is the evidence that there is only one sorce for Abas's attempt ? . iread another text writen by " ابن سعيد" Ibn Saied (1213–1286) in Arabic he mentioned the flying attempt. I think if someone search more, he will get more sources. محمد الباحوث (talk) 05:40, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

There is one and only one account of the event - by the 17th century Moroccan author Ahmed Mohammed al-Maqqari, reproduced in White, Lynn (1961), "Eilmer of Malmesbury, an Eleventh Century Aviator: A Case Study of Technological Innovation, Its Context and Tradition", Technology and Culture 2 (2): 97–111 (100f.):

"Among other very curious experiments which he made, one is his trying to fly. He covered himself with feathers for the purpose, attached a couple of wings to his body, and, getting on an eminence, flung himself down into the air, when, according to the testimony of several trustworthy writers who witnessed the performance, he flew a considerable distance, as if he had been a bird, but, in alighting again on the place whence he had started, his back was very much hurt, for not knowing that birds when they alight come down upon their tails, he forgot to provide himself with one."

Apart from that, al-Maqqari quotes a verse from "some Mu'min b. Said, a minor court poet of Cordoba under Muhammad I (d. 886 A. D.) which appears to refer to Abbas' flight:"

"He flew faster than the phoenix in his flight when he dressed his body in the feathers of a vulture."

That's all what is said in the primary sources on the gliding experiment. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If that is the sole primary source, it mentions nothing on "ornithopter" (intralinked to it) or "feathery" wings. They could have been wood or canvas, etc. I suggest to revise/edit this. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I used the ornithopter wording only to agree with the supposed quote of the pilot that he would gain altitude by means of moving his wings up and down.  Since those quotes have been discounted, the language should be adjusted accordingly.Mavigogun (talk) 16:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "He covered himself with feathers for the purpose, attached a couple of wings to his body.." In my view, the feathers must refer to the wings, unless they were intended by Abbas for purely ornamental reasons which I find quite unlikely. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are several accounts of "pioneers" who covered their body with feathers, as it was commonly believed in various cultures around the world that the feathers would vest a man with the ability to fly. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Doug Weller Hi. So how do we solve this? 81.133.43.161 (talk) 13:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Doug Weller nothing is mentioned about the glider in the article despite plenty of sources. Where is the issue? 81.133.43.161 (talk) 20:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello User:Mikeblas, none is here at the talk except myself. At least you have a look pls and sort it out.81.133.43.161 (talk) 20:45, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * User:TheseusHeLl let's start. Which sources are really unreliable? They will be removed. No problem with that.--Soloccampo (talk) 10:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Claiming in his bio that Abbas ibn Firnas was an aviation pioneer, based on one uncorroborated source written EIGHT HUNDRED years later is indefensible. This is not a reliable source by any measure. this is a folk tale at best. When you examine the claim, that he took off and landed from the same spot, you then realise that it is indeed a fabrication. Even with well trained pilots, modern hang gliders can only do this under exceptional wind and geographic conditions. there is no chance someone with wood, canvas, feathers and no prior understanding of flight could do this. The entire premise of this part of the article seems to be nonsensical, akin to having a page claiming witchcraft was real, based on one source 800 years later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.187.235 (talk) 13:37, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


 * It's improbable but not impossible. Perhaps by pure chance he returned to the same spot.
 * The quotation from the court poet who was critical of ibn Firnas gives it some weight (criterion of embarrassment? can't remember) because why would he give him that kudos if it didn't happen?
 * Someone who is knowledgeable on history in 17th century could weigh in regarding statistics on how many sources from that time period no longer exist today (if it's true that all the sources no longer exist). 165.86.81.72 (talk) 06:48, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Not an Arab but an Amazigh?
. Putting this here incase anybody wants to talk about it. I'm currently assuming it's WP-wrong to remove Arab, but WP:RS may convince me otherwise. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Abu al-Qasim Abbas ibn Firnas ibn Wirdas al-Takurini
What is the source of this very long name? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Article issues and classification

 * The criteria #1 states; The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. and #4, The article is reasonably well-written.
 * The opening sentence in the lead has a "dubious – discuss" inline tag. A "well-written" article would not likely have this. -- Otr500 (talk) 15:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC)