Talk:Abenaki

Clarity
This sentence, from the second paragraph makes no sense:


 * ''Note, however, that the tribes of the Five Nations in what is now New York State, were linguistically segregated from the other Algonquian tribes in the northeast, such as the Mohawk, Monhegan, Onondaga, and Iroquois.

The Five Nations, aka the Iroquois were the Seneca, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga and Mohawks. The article is mixing apples and grapes. Mohawks and Onondagas were Iroquois. Also there were no such people as the "Monhegan" in this area. There were Mahicans and Mohegans. Some research and work on this is clearly needed. Meanwhile, I will remove it from the article. Sunray 04:17, 2005 Jun 7 (UTC)


 * Additionally, I think the page could profit from an expansion of the 20th century history of the Abenakis. I have also done a lot of work with the language and will be adding a short summation of the recent history and current situation of that. JesseBeach 18:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Western Abenaki, Eastern Abenaki
hi. this article obviously treats the Western Abenaki and the Eastern Abenaki as if they were the same group. they are not and speak different languages. – ishwar  (speak)  22:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The Western Abenakis become the main Abenaki Tribe, while the Eastern Abenakis become the Penobscot. In this article, as long as the two are made clear with more of the focus on the Western Abenaki, I think it would be fine.  However, the bigger problem with this article is how it confuses "Abenaki" with "Wabanaki" and muddles the article with discussions regarding the Mi'kmaq, Maliseet and Passamaquoddy.  I have put together a stub-article on the Wabanaki Confederacy and made the Wabanaki redirect page be a disambiguation page.  Hopefully, those two pages will begin the path of untagling this article into shape. CJLippert 17:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Sentences removed
I have removed the following sentences because of their biased tone. (It's possible they're from a contemporary source and belong in quotation marks, but no source was cited.)

Text removed:

"They remained unalterably attached to the Faith, and during the Revolution, when Washington sent to ask them to join with the colonies against England, they assented on condition that a Catholic priest should be sent to them. Some of the chaplains of the French fleet communicated with them, promising to comply with their request, but beyond that nothing was done." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbakis (talk • contribs) 14:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Map
I think it would be nice to have a map of where the Abenaki lived, but I have no idea how to make one. A good resource for where they live is this article itself, and this site. Good luck to whoever makes it! íslenskur fel lib ylur #12 (samtal) 17:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Sentences and Questions
They took sides with the French and maintained an increasing hostility against encroachments of the English. When? Why? As part of what historical event? This sentence has no context. How did the French recruit their help? What kind of encroachments of the English?

This section says nothing of the skirmishes—there had to be some kind hostility.

When their principal town, Norridgewock, was taken, and their missionary, Rasle, was killed (1724), the greater part of them emigrated to St. Francis in the province of Quebec, Canada, where other refugees from the New England tribes had preceded them. Who took their town? Why? How was it taken?

The third paragraph is confusing because it describes a planned colony and work without any indication of what they are! It is as if these paragraphs have been extracted from their contexts, and together seem to describe nebulous events.

The article has a link to Abenaki mythology but no section for it. It says little about the culture; how they dressed; the government and power hierarchy; what weapons they had; what they ate; how they are related to other tribes; and so on.

subsequent isolation of each small remnant of the greater whole onto reservations during and after the French and Indian War well before the US government began acknowledging the sovereignty of native tribes in the late twentieth century. Again this describes something without any background. Rintrah 13:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for copyediting portions of the article, and thank you for noting these problems. I will fix them when I rewrite the history section, which most of these are part of, as I have not done that section yet. íslenskur fel lib ylur #12 (samtal) 22:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. I am pleased to hear the article is being improved. I will come back later to read the result — I am curious about this tribe now. Rintrah 07:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Photo
The man in the photograph is wearing regalia from the Plains tribes, not Abenaki. The Abenaki did not wear bone breast plates or deer roaches on their heads. They dressed with turkey feathers and deerskin leggings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.62.203.19 (talk • contribs).

Wabanaki not Abenaki
References I have seen ( http://www.native-languages.org/wabanaki.htm and http://www.abenakination.org/history.html ) indicate that the Abenaki are one of several tribes that together are referred to as Wabanaki. In that case, shouldn't the redirect from Wabanaki be removed and a separate page be created? Wseltzer 19:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I was looking at the article and was noticing how Abenaki, Mi'kmaq and Maliseet words are jumbled together and realised that the article is getting Wabanaki peoples (the larger collective that also includes the Penobscots and the Passamaquoddys to the mentioned three) to form the Wabanaki Confederacy with the specific tribe, the Abenaki peoples.  CJLippert 06:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
Article seems to have been vandalized...anyone notice? Can you fix it? I don't know enough about Abenaki to know the depth of the damage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.124.10 (talk) 00:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Tribe
References on this discussion page, as well as elsewhere refer to Abenaki as a tribe. If they aren't what are the Algonquins, to which the Abenaki belong?

As far as calling them what they call themselves, we're calling them Abenakis, which is presumably what they call themselves. But we can't call them something they are not. Naming is one thing. We use their name. Labeling is something Wikipedia does with references. Student7 (talk) 12:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The Alleged Abenaki of Vermont
90% percent of the people claiming Abenaki descent have not shown any evidence of a genealogical nature, to prove that they are who they say they are. Why is this? If the legitimate Abenaki do exist in Vermont and New Hampshire then there ought to be no issue or hesitancy to showing the evidence from within the families to validate their ancestry as being from and connected to the Abenaki Peoples of Vermont. If a particular Vermont Abenaki family went to Canada historically-speaking then that evidence should be shown that shows the families was in Vermont or had ties to Vermont genealogically before having left the State. These groups calling themselves Missisquoi-Sokoki, Koasek's, and Nulhegan's may indeed be genealogically not connected to any historical abenaki families in Vermont. If the Eugenics were indeed targeting Vermont based Abenaki descendant families then why didn't the Eugenics people target Trudy Parker's ancestors descendants?, or Jeanne Brink's ancestoral descendants that came from Odanak into Vermont to Thompson's Point?

These groups are not being honest with the Vermont public nor with themselves to my thinking. Or else April St. Francis-Merrill, Frederick Wiseman, Luke Willard, Howard Franklin Knight Jr, and Nancy Millette and these groups members claiming to being Vermont historical Abenaki families would be more than willing to show and share their genealogical evidence and not just keep pointing at Vermont historical maps and moaning and compaling that they are being marginalized and unrecognized by the Vermont Legislature and Governor. Seems to alot of people, that its simply illogical and absurd to recognize any self proclaiming and self-promoting group of alleged Abenakis in Vermont WITHOUT first showing the genealogical evidence to support their assertions, claims, and proclamations. Any other legitimate Native community or Nation would demand that such genealogical evidence be shown by the petitioner(s) to come into and become a part of the Nation, whether it be Penobscots, Passamaquoddies, Miq-Mac's, Lakota's, etc etc. It behooves the States of Vermont and New Hamsphire that if such State Recognition be given, that the State make sure that the evidence genealogically be given by the people seeking such recognition freely, honestly and without hesitation. If there is hesitation, dishonesty, and distorition(s) from these groups calling themselves the Missisquois, the Koaseks, and the Nulhegans etc, which I strongly think there has been, the State of Vermont Legislature and Governor (including the State of New Hampshire) better withhold official State Recognition of ANY GROUP CLAIMING TO BE ABENAKI until they show the genealogical evidence that all of their membership people are genealogically connected to Vermont. Frauds, distortions, and greedy people are attempting to hijack the Vermont historical records out of museums and create the illusions that they are the real deal McCoy Abenakis of Vermont and genealogically it will show that they are not who they appear or claim to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglaslloydbuchholz (talk • contribs) 06:38, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile, Ben & Jerry's continues to occupy their land... :-) https://nypost.com/2022/08/09/israeli-students-accuse-ben-jerrys-of-occupying-tribal-land/ 185.125.226.16 (talk) 13:34, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Contested statements removed

 * There are two primary dialects of Abenaki: Western Abenaki, the language of the Abenaki community at Odanak, and Eastern Abenaki, represented by the modern language of the Penobscot tribe and the Abenaki linguistic materials of the colonial French missionaries. ((Fact|date=January 2007}}
 * There were numerous cultural differences between the Algonquian tribes and those of the Five Nations, with linguistic and spiritual differences being the most noticeable. ((Fact|date=January 2007}}
 * There are very few native speakers of the original Abenaki language still alive. There are active Abenaki communities in Quebec, Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire. ((Fact|date=January 2007}}
 * Their language has been preserved in the monumental Abenaki-French dictionary of Sebastian Râle, in Joseph Laurent's 1884 grammar, and in the 1994 dictionary by Gordon Day. ((Fact|date=January 2007}}
 * Goverment section: The Abenaki elected chiefs called Sachems, who usually served for life but could be impeached. They had little actual power, but European colonizers still treated them like monarchs, resulting in many miscommunications and oversimplifications. ((Fact|date=January 2007}}
 * The first record of their encountering Europeans was in 1603, when the English explorer Martin Pring set dogs on them. ((Fact|date=January 2008}}
 * As of the early 1900s, they were represented by the Wolastoqiyik ("People of the good river" – Maliseet) on the St. John River, New Brunswick, and Quebec (on the bay of that name, in Maine (300); the Penobscots, at Old Town, Maine (400), and the Abnakis at St. Francis and Bécancour, Quebec (430). ((Fact|date=January 2007}}
 * The first seigneurie was established on the Saint-François river and is now known as the Odanak Indian Reserve; the second was established on the river Bécancour and is now known as the Wôlinak Indian Reserve. ((Fact|date=January 2007}}
 * In 1980 two small councils united to form the Northeast Woodland-Coos Band, now known as the Koasek Traditional Band. ((Fact|date=February 2007}}
 * In 1604, George Weymouth kidnapped a group and took them to England. ((Fact|date=January 2008}}

Please do not return this information to the article without a citation.-- Birgitte SB  23:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed vandalised section
Removed text from the section titled "NAME' due to vandalisation. Text removed was "The Abenaki people call themselves The Porno Gods of Worship, meaning "gay people"'

Also removed entire "Location" section for the same reason. Removed section was: "Their location is secret. They have caves filled with mass porn (Otherwise gay porn). They worship a god only known as gayzilla who terrorizes straight people." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.254.245.122 (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the good intentions. The vandal also removed a large amount of text, so I have reverted to an earlier revision.--Ken Gallager (talk) 12:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits to the Abenaki page
I am Ravlin, I have been editing this page and updating it as part of a class assignment. Thank you for your help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravlin (talk • contribs) 13:47, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Please consider adding musician/artist Phoebe Legere as a Notable Person. She's French/Abenaki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray Lee Wayne (talk • contribs) 03:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Notes from Oct. 2011 edits to article
I have moved the long, detailed notes from the October 16 edits to here:

NOTE1: According to author Gordon M. Day, "DEGONZAGUE. Abenakis at Odanak agree that this family was a branch of the Obomsawin family, presumably descended from a Degonzague Obomsawin about whom I have found no information. Hallowell got the same information (ca. 1930, Chart 1). He wrote, "I have been told that de Gonzague was originally a personal name associated with Obomsawin as a surname and that gradually the surname [Obomsawin] was dropped and de Gonzague substituted". The first Degonzague in the records is Louis De Gonzague who was war chief in the 1808 Petition to Governor Craig for Francis Annance (PAC, RG 10, vol. 625). We may surmise that the Louis Consack who was head chief in 1819, signing the petition to rebuild the church, was the same man, since the spellings of this document are rather uncouth (BRH 30 [1924]:83). He does not appear in the roster of 1812, but a P.M. Degonzague does. Pronounced in Abenaki dagöza." >

NOTE2: The Robert & de Gonzague families are believed to be a branch of the Obomsawin family. [Day] A document written in 1882 and citing Maurault's history of the Abenaki claims that the Obomsawin family descends from a white captive brought to Odanak during the colonial wars. One researcher believes that Pierre Joseph Robert Obomsawin of Odanak is the son of Joseph Robert Namur whose parents, Henri Joseph Robert dit Namur, originally from Namur, Belgium, and Marguerite Laliberté-Mouilleron, were married at Fort St. Frederick, New York on September 20th, 1751.

NOTE3: Gordon Day wrote, "Sometimes two branches of the same family used their Indian and French names respectively as, for example, Pagon and Claude. The Abenaki name Kepinawos appears in two different abbreviated forms, Pinawans and Capino. The numerous Obomsawin family hived off successively two other families -- the Degonzague family from an early Degonzague Obomsawin and the Robert family from an early Robert Obomsawin."

NOTE4: No evidence has surfaced of any connection with the European family line of Louis 1er de Gonzague, capitaine de Mantoue (1268-1360), which died out when Joseph-Marie de Gonzague (1690-1746), duke of Gastalla, passed on without issue. That said, it is possible that the man who first took the name was inspired by history ... Louis 1er's leadership and Saint Louis' spiritual values.

--Ken Gallager (talk) 14:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Origin of term "Monadnock"?
The Mount Monadnock talk page recently had this question:


 * I'm a British geographer/geologist who has long been familiar with the term 'monadnock' as applies to this form of mountain. Until reading this article I'd never considered for a minute that the name origin might have been anything but an anglicisation of the Scottish Gaelic 'monadh' + 'cnoc'; it fits so well. Of course I know next to nothing about native American languages. Can an expert in the Abanaki language assist us here, in case it is a borrowing from Gaelic? Geopersona (talk) 06:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone who follows this article have knowledge regarding the Abenaki origin of the term "Monadnock"? --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chipewyan people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:30, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cayuga people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:44, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Abenaki people → Abenaki – target is redirect to current title moved by Kwami on June 8 2010, contrary to WP:UNDAB, original article created on June 5, 2002 by 207.22.43.38 Skookum1 (talk) 04:09, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose until the issue is addressed properly. These should be discussed at a centralized location.
 * There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't. That could be revisited.  But it really should be one discussion on the principle, not thousands of separate discussions at every ethnicity in the world over whether it should be at "X", "Xs", or "X people".  — kwami (talk) 12:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way. bd2412  T 02:27, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Support as per the policy Article titles and the guideline Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes). The section Article titles also applies given that Abenaki redirects here. There is no need to redo any guideline as it already supports the un-disabiguated title. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:52, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

History before European contact?
Is there any reliable, unbiased history available for this group before european contact? 206.47.95.58 (talk) 23:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I was just wondering the same. Since Native Americans did not have any writing that lent itself to recording an historical narrative, what one would want is an account recorded by an Abenaki in his or her own words as soon after European contact as possible.  During the 1500's, long before European settlement, there was a thriving trade with Europe and some Native Americans learned European languages and some Europeans learned Native American languages.  So I think it likely that such an account exists, but I haven't found it yet.  LondonYoung (talk) 14:57, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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 * Flag of the Nulhegan Band of the Coosuk Abenaki Nation.jpg

Reference in Robin MacArthur novel
Heart Spring Mountain (2018), a story about Vermont living by Robin MacArthur, weaves references to Abenaki history and culture throughout. It refers respectfully to elements (possibly Romanticized) of Abenaki philosophy, and refers to a couple minor characters with Abenaki ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewOram (talk • contribs) 17:44, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Clean up
This article is in serious need of clean up. It is contradictory and lacking in sources. I'm hoping to get to it in a couple of weeks, if anyone else would like to jump in that'd be great. Indigenous girl (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

When you just gotta put in your 'information' ...
maybe don't? A paragraph in section Gender, food, division of labor, and other cultural traits starts with sentence:
 * The Abenaki were a patrilineal society, which was common among New England tribes.

The remaining 4 sentences of that paragraph talk about matrilineal systems, including a link to matrilineal.

Isn't it embarrassing to realize you've said "subject is A, but I want to talk about B" and then do so? Shenme (talk) 02:16, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Please stop removing information about ongoing controversy
I've added the following text under the heading "controversy." Someone removed it. Please help maintain it. While people may disagree with the Abenaki Band Council, their stance is relevant to the topic and should be included.

CONTROVERSY

The Odanak Abenaki Band Council, the governing body of the Odanak band of the Abenaki First Nation, has denounced groups claiming to be Abenaki in the United States. Contemporary scholarship calls into question the legitimacy of ancestry claims made by such groups, suggesting that many members have no Abenaki ancestry or a single Indigenous ancestor many generations removed. This phenomena, sometimes called settler self-indigenization or race-shifting, is strongly critiqued by Indigenous activists and allied settlers who view it as a threat to the sovereignty of Indigenous nations.

Zweetsense (talk) 20:21, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Zweetsense

“Koasek” listed twice?
Why is Koasek listed twice? Is there a missing diacritic or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.14.193 (talk) 01:09, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Hairstyle section
There are a lot of dicey, non-citations throughout this article. This section appears to be original research based on self-published sources. If someone wants to try to rewrite it based on wp:verifiable sources, I'm placing it below. Yuchitown (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Hair style and other marriage traditions
Traditionally, Abenaki men kept their hair long and loose. When a man found a girlfriend, he would tie his hair. When he married, he would attach the hair of the scalp with a piece of leather and shave all but the ponytail. The modernized spiritual version has the man with a girlfriend tying his hair and braiding it. When he marries, he keeps all his hair in a braid, shaving only the side and back of the head. The spiritual meaning surrounding this cut is most importantly to indicate betrothal or fidelity as a married Abenaki man. In much the same way as the Christian marriage tradition, there is an (optional) exchange and blessing of wedding rings. These rings are the outward and visible sign of the unity of this couple.

Changes in the hair style were symbolic of a complex courtship process. The man would give the woman a box made of a fine wood, which was decorated with the virtues of the woman; the woman would give a similar box to the man. Everyone in the tribe must agree to the marriage. They erect a pole planted in the earth, and if anyone disagrees, he strikes the pole. The disagreement must be resolved or the marriage does not happen.

language dictionary translation 174.242.80.84 (talk) 22:33, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Copyvios?
I've been asked to check this for copyvios. Earwig is turning up a 90% copyvio with myfctagov.ng/1n7jj/abenaki-nation-of-new-hampshire. And 80% with another site. This is a lot. I'll see what I can do here if revisions need to be hidden, but I'm not sure if I have time right now for a full cleanup. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hang on, that site's a mess. Looks like an aggregate site. Still checking the others. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:01, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This one has 80% but looking at source code to see which is older: https://www.bartletthistory.org/bartletthistory/beginnings.html - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)