Talk:Aberdeen Grammar School

Houses and Extra Curricular Activities
The validity of the above section is questionable. Significant chunks of the text held within this category are without any citations and some of the section I know to be assertion, with special reference to the initial quote (below). The reference to the school magazine is a farce when put in the context of recent years; where the official magazine was 2/3 years late, although 6th year publication was made this year.

I am however reluctant to edit outright.

''The school encourages certain maverick elements through the publication of a self funded sixth year magazine. In this regard groups of pupils - editors - have devised, secured the finance, edited and published annual obscurely named journals (Sagsagas, The Ulimate Deterrent, 100 Degrees Proof, X5 W/D, Red Tape) for sale to the school. Current technology obscures the challenges that this presented in the pre-digital age. Regardless of which, each year produced a profit to support the funding of the subsequent publication. Despite the underground nature of the venture many editors subsequently became establshment figures in the law, politics, medicine and academia.''

''In keeping with embracing the Scottish Liberal tradition the school's oldest "great offices" are President of the Literary and Debating Society and President of the Dramatic Society. Although colours are usually restricted to sporting prowess in Rugby and Hockey.''

''The dramatic society has often benefited from external expertise and inspired internal leadership that have resulted in beyond the expectation and years of their young performers. These include Waiting for Godot (1972), Journeys End (1976), Our Town (1976), The Insect Play (1977), A Midsummer Night's Dream (1978) and others. The production values were as high as the personal rewards to the pupils and staff who participated.'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagpipes1 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Lord Byron

 * Whilst I was at the school it was said (perhaps just an urban myth) that despite his statue in front of the school Byron had infact been a bit of a misfit and was in the end expelled for taking opium and lewd behavior. I have only got one search engine hit on the subject and its not a quotable resource, the other sites seem to be Byron idol sites and make no mention of it. Has anyone else heard this/know if it is true? Bobbacon 07:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I too heard said rumour. WEBURIEDOURSECRETS  INTHEGARDEN  22:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The rumour is infact true, Bertrand Russel's history of western philosophy states so although, it's not a primary source and does not state Aberdeen Grammar school. Still with, Byron's reputation as a bounder and a cad it is hardly surprising.  The perfect role model for school pupils.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.171.95.4 (talk) 14:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Motto

 * The school's motto is 'Bon Record' what does this actually mean? Bobbacon, 28 March 2006


 * As far as I can see, it is quite simply French for "Good record" (in the sense of record-breaking, being best), i.e. "High achievement". But it would be helpful to know how old the motto is, and whether "record" meant anything else in Older French.  --Doric Loon 21:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It may have something to do with the Aberdeen motto "Bon Accord". But I don't know. Elevenz e roone talk / contribs 19:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The city's motto Bon Accord (motto) was used as a password when Aberdeen Castle was destroyed in 1308. This is over 50 years after the believed date that the school was founded. I have no idea, but if 'Bon Record' is a variation of 'Bon Accord' then it must not have been used at the founding of the school. Perhaps however, both evolved independently and it was used since the beginning. Bobbacon 10:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Photo and style

 * Can someone put up a photograph of the facade of the school? It would enhance this article no end, and also augment what is going on at Scottish baronial style. Also, how about some more FPs?  There have been some very eminent FPs besides Byron and the moderators.  I don't have an FPs' Club magazine to hand, but information about them must be easy to get.  --Doric Loon 01:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * A picture of the Rector and somebody in school uniform (preferably with colours that can be noted to in the article) would be very useful if anybody has access them. Bobbacon 10:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Former Rectors, Head Boys and Head Girls

 * In the school itself there are plaques with the dates and names of all the former rectors. If the 5 most recent were added to the "rectors" section followed by a link to another article on former rectors the page would be greatly enhanced.. Bobbacon, 28 March 2006


 * There are also plaques with the names and dates of the head boys and girls- these could be added in the same way as above. Bobbacon, 28 March 2006

Wedderburn
I have altered the sentence about Wedderburn. Wedderburn's reference to football does not mention rules. I agree that the Scotsman article states so (along with various other unfounded assertions) but the newspaper actually only offers the very beginning of the quotation. They do not provide any primary evidence for their assertions. The original english translation (from the 1930s: not a recent discovery) states the following:

Let us choose sides pick your man first Those on our side come here How many are against us? Kick out the ball so that we may begin the game Come, kick it here You keep the goal Snatch the ball from that fellow if you can Come, throw yourself against him Run at him Kick the ball back Well done. You aren't doing anything To make a goal This is the first goal, this the second, this the third Drive that man back The opponents are, moreover, coming out on top, If you don't look out, he will make a goal Unless we play better, we'll be done for Ah, victory is in your hands Ha, hurrah. He is a very skilled ball player Had it not been for him, we should have brought back the victory Come, help me. We still have the better chance

There is no mention of rules or of the forward pass.

It is not clear why a reputable newspaper like the Scotsman published this without questioning the sources. Probably because of frustration at having to put up with the English sporting media during Euro 2006. That may be understandble.

JMc

Assess
Aberdeen Grammar School (Start/mid) A very old school founded c.1257. Alumni include Lord Byron but there is a surprisingly short list for such an old school. The school is probably more important than is apparent from the present article. A good start at referencing. This really should be a B but more is needed on the pre-1863 history of the school and there is rather too much trivia (school colours, etc) which needs to be cut. Dahliarose 10:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Photo
So what happened to the photo of the school? It was obviously somebody's snapshot, so it can't have been copyright. --Doric Loon 13:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming it's back now... WBOSITG (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Quick-failed "good article" nomination
Per the quick-fail criteria of the GA process, any article that has cleanup banners (such as the one marking the trivia section) must be failed immediately and does not require an in-depth review. Please remedy any issues brought up by such banners, and remove them before choosing to renominate. If you feel this decision was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, Van Tucky  talk 22:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of December 5, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: The main prose of the article could be improved in fluidity by forming whole paragraphs, instead of having a collection of individual sentences, as exists in the current version. Headings do not conform to Wikipedia's manual of style. Perhaps the editor(s) could seek help from the LoCE.
 * 2. Factually accurate?: This is hard to check, as not all statements/sections are referenced. --Working on it --WBOSITG (talk)
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: There seems to be more attention given to trivia, in this article, than to facts you would expect to find in an article about a school - information about subjects taught, teachers, catchment and pupil demographics, and the physical structure(s) of the school should be expanded, and trivia should be reduced/removed (see Wikipedia's guidelines on trivia). -- DONE --WBOSITG (talk)
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: For the most part, the article is neutral, but some non-neutral statements are suggested occassionally, such as "The school also has a very successful debating team" and " These Portakabins, affectionately known as "The Village" "
 * 5. Article stability? The article does not appear to have any conflicts.
 * 6. Images?: Two images are used that meet the correct copyright criteria.

This article is beginning to take shape, but is still not quite up to the standard of a GA. The prose does not flow, due to it being constructed from a series of random, unlinked sentences. The lead section is very short, and does not adequately spell out the content of the full article. Far too much trivia is contained within the article, that was tagged prior to this GA review - the tag was merely removed from the trivia, without the trivia being dealt with appropriately. Many sections of the article are unreferenced - even a GA should have at least one reference per paragraph. Hopefully these suggestions are helpful, and will allow improvements to be made for future resubmission to GA nomination. ~ Ciar ~ (Talk to me!)  00:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.


 * I would recommend deleting the entire trivia section. --Doric Loon (talk) 10:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Will do. WBOSITG (talk) 19:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Right, not quite enough for a renom but I've added a whole heap of refs and I think it may be on the way to GA with a bit more work. WBOSITG (talk) 22:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am pupil of the school and I have never even heard of the portacabins being referred to as "the village". In my experiance, they are usually called "the huts".86.129.148.96 (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Little help?
This seems to be the only way to find anything of interest on this school on the entire internet. This makes it damn near impossible to find any referenced information for this article. I just don't know what to do. As a pupil, I know what goes on in the school, there is just no way to prove it. WEBURIEDOURSECRETS INTHEGARDEN  19:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The one thing that has always been missing is a list of former rectors, right back to the beginning- it helps to prove the age of the school. As a pupil, if you could take a couple of pictures of the boards with name of the rectors and head-boys / girls from the past (if they are still there) that would be a great addition. Bobbacon (talk) 17:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you ask the school librarian if there are any histories of the school? As a pupil you should be well placed there. (Thirty years ago, I was one of the nerds with the red "librarian" badges on our uniforms - the librarian was a Mrs. Fraser. The library had a fantastic collection of books on local history, which were all destroyed in the fire.  Now I sound like one of those old guys who used to speak at assemblies.  Gawd!!!)  --Doric Loon (talk) 18:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Re-assessment
This article has improved significantly since I initially assessed it several months ago. I'm upgrading it to a B and high importance based on the age of the school and the examination results. There's still a lot of work to be done before it is ready for a good article nomination. One of the important points not mentioned in the GA assessment is the referencing of the alumni. To meet the GA criteria all challengeable facts must be referenced. The alumni must be referenced either in their own article if they have one or on this page. Otherwise there is no verifiable proof that these people attended the school. I would suggest deleting the entire section on uniform and colours. It adds nothing to the article and is of no interest to the general reader. The lead needs strengthening and should really sum up the most interesting points of interest about the school. We don't need to know about the school's catchment area in the lead. The history section still needs expansion. A quick search on COPAC for Aberdeen Grammar School reveals that a huge number of published sources exist about the school. Even if these books are no longer in the school library following the fire they will be in the local libraries. If not you can order them via inter-library loan. These books would provide you with all the information you need. Keep up the good work! Dahliarose (talk) 17:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This is the book you should read if you want to find out more:
 * SIMPSON, H. F.MORLAND (ED) Bon record: records and reminiscences of Aberdeen Grammar School from the earliest times by many writers; Aberdeen; D.Wyllie & Son. (1906).
 * It is available from the University of Aberdeen Special Libraries and Archives shelfmark: L Aa N6 Gra S b
 * Gaps after 1906 will have to come from another source.
 * Bobbacon (talk) 23:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I may review this later as a GA
I'm not really in the mood, and have got things to do, just now, but may take a look at it later. Certainly the article looks decent enough.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 04:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, HSR, thanks.  WEBURIEDOURSECRETSINTHEGARDEN  we need to talk.  ☆ 19:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

GA Review
Two things first: An external link and a reference  are 404s, and I have removed them. That said...


 * 1. Well written?: The incomplete "Rectors" section fails to assure me. The "Former Pupils' Club" could use some removing of redundant redundancy and expansion. [[Image:Symbol oppose vote.svg|15px]]
 * 2. Factually accurate?: The lead needs sources.

deserves a citation as well.
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Definitely. [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]]
 * 4. Neutral point of view?:

is slightly POV. "Infamous" is a strong word to use, and the earlier statements weren't covered by the citation given. However, everything else is quite good, so:
 * 5. Article stability? Nothing much to be said here. [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]]
 * 6. Images?: The latter part of the article could use some images such as pictures of one or more of the houses, or one of the "musical evenings", but this isn't necessary. [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]]
 * Overall: [[Image:Symbol oppose vote.svg|15px]]

Once these issues have been addressed, you can resubmit it at WP:GAN. Good job overall. Nousernamesleft copper, not wood 20:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

History
Two events in the school's history may need elaboration:-
 * "In 1580, new pupils were reprimanded, under the penalty of £10, if they did not show good behaviour or did not listen to their Magistrates or masters.[9]" This sentence is completely without context and its significance is unclear.
 * Again, the 1612 pupils' riot lacks context - it would be interesting to develop how the riot came about. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Notable alumni and teachers
Unexplained text removed - may refer to Byron or is Model a surname (Walter Model)? Field marshal model High ranking officer in the Battle of the Bulge 1906-1907 Finavon (talk) 16:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

"Aberdeen High School"?
Our James Fordyce article claims that he was educated at "Aberdeen High School". Which school is this referring to? The source would appear to be the DNB, which is usually regarded as being reasonably reliable, but maybe slightly off on this occasion? --Mais oui! (talk) 04:25, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

John James Rickard Macleod at this school?
Do we know for sure if Nobel prize winner John James Rickard Macleod attended this school? It seems unclear from the sources which Aberdeen school he was at. --Mervyn (talk) 13:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This supports the claim. I'll add it to the article. Finavon (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)